In the throes of throwing rules

[Christopher R Taylor]

So, this came up on the Discord server, and I honestly am not clear on it now.

 

How much is Martial Throw like a Throw maneuver?  I have always played it as a knockdown move, at most maybe a meter or two away.  As in, Martial Throw is not the same as Captain America flinging his shield around, its Batroc flipping Cap to the ground.

 

However the rules seem to make it sound like Martial Throw is just a better throw that doesn't require a grab.  So you can legsweep someone across a room? In HSR 2 it says this:

 

Quote

[Martial Throw] is in effect an advanced version of the Throw Combat Maneuver...  that applies only to characters

 

In Hero System Martial Arts 6th edition, its put this way:
 

Quote

in Maneuver listings, this is indicated with use of the words “Target Falls,” “He Falls,” or “Opponent Falls,” instead of “Throw.”

 

So is it a knockdown or flinging people all over the place?  

 

Also, the Martial Arts book suggests that you can do a martial throw at the end of a half move, for velocity damage.  I always interpreted the velocity damage element to be you taking down a moving target, not you moving into a target and crashing into them.  But again, in the rules:

 

Quote

If a character uses a Martial Maneuver with the v/10 Element (or v/6), such as a Martial Throw, he doesn’t take damage if he fails to do Knockback to the target.

 

I base my understanding of the martial arts rules on, you know, martial arts, and I cannot recall any example of a martial artist running across the room to crash into a target and blast them flying, much less throw them around like a ragdoll.  Even if you extrapolate martial arts into stuff like professional wrestling, they still aren't throwing someone more than a meter or two.

Edited March 2 by Christopher R Taylor

[Duke Bushido]

I hope you don't take this wrong,  but it feels like you are asking,"what is the SFX for this?"

 

If that"s the case-  again: without flippancy-- it is whatever the purchaser of the maneuver declares them to be.

 

You base your understanding, as you say, on martial Arts.  The game doesn't.  The game bases martial Arts on otherwise-illegally subdivide skill levels.  The "martial Arts" part is literally,just the stx of these partial skill levels.this is how we end up with 'martian desert wrestling" and "Klingon something or other" and "Gun-Fu."

 

The Spiderpeople of the norther shores and their six-armed gymkata are just as related to HERO System Martial arts (the concept; not the book) as is actual earthly karate, simply because the martial arts system is a simulator.

 

Problematically, the system works,better for the spider people and,morlocks and any other fictional group ir fictional martial art because a fictional system can be tweaked to fit into the confines of the system.  A real martial art can't.

 

We can pretend it can-- we seem to really enjoy pretending it can- but no simulation has everything.  HERO fakes,it by having pretty much _both in_-  it is just a series of package deals on skill levels with lots of flavor text-- but weirdly, it is the lack of actual substance that seems to sell it:  a martial strike can be whatever maneuver you want it to be: a punch, a kick, a,head butt, a tongue strike, smashing an opponent with your enormous beak..

 

And that is why I cant really tell you what a martial throw is, other than to say "it is a maneuver that, up on its conclusion, the target will be prone."

 

After That, it is one-hundred-percebt your call. I know; that isn't exaclty what you are asking, but what you are asking doesnt have a true "correct' answer outside of the mechanics.

 

It could be a kung fu flip, a judo throw,an akido redirection, or a swift kick in the jimmies.  The HSM maneuvers are _not_, themselves. Combat (or any other) maneuver.  They are the package of pre-assigned skill levels that you allocate when you use the maneuver you made up when you boight that micro package.

 

 

I know that someone out there is thinking "a kick to the Jimmies is an NND Nerve Strike!" but that is incorrect.  A kick to the jimmies is a special effect for a mechanic, both of which I get to select, and the combine into whatever I say they are.

 

 

Let's move away from martial Arts for a moment.  Let's take a quick look at super-powered wild card "Laserface" and his recent interview with Channel 113's Amanda Calmione:

 

So...  Why are you calling me that, again?

 

Well you've been rather mysterious, popping up and disappearing without so much as a hey-how-are-ya?  We don't know your actual name-

 

It's Rick.  My name is Rick.

 

-because You supertypes are all so mysterious and concerned about your private lives-

 

No, really;  it's okay.  I'm cool with it.  Call me Rick.

 

-plus there's the mask-

 

That...  That is actually,_necessary; it is part of the halo equupment that allows me to both augment my natural psionic powers and to counteract the inhibitor module the aliens planted in my brain.  See, I can't have that removed by any earthly surgeon because our tech just isnt there-

 

--and that georgeous crystal face piece-

 

 

Oh, yeah, see, my powers are routed via alien-grown neural tissue implanted around my optic nerves-  it was a process they use to make others more susceptible to thwir mind control, believe it or not, but for some reason, it had a reverse effect on me.  Anyway, the energues have to be refined and purified and certain wavelengths-

 

 

-and _all_ those _beautiful prismatic lasers, shot directly outta your face like that, and, you know...  Directly into somoneone else's face.  We are not exaclty certain yet,just how sinister these face lasers of your are, Laserface-

 

-really, Amanda, Rick is _fine_; my girlfriend might even get a kick out of it.  Uh, oh, crap-  uh, Rest Her Soul,in Peace.  Her poor, departed soul, I mean.

 

-or just what these face lasers do-

 

You could ask.

 

...  Wait, seriously?

 

_yeah_!

 

We could just ask?  And you would just... Tell us..?

 

I agreed to be on your show, didn't I?  The Nine AM Campaign?  I know ir's a talk show!  I watch it all the time betwe--  uh, between battles in front of electronic stores.-

 

-and between visits to your deceased girlfriend?

 

Wha?!  Oh; Yeah; sure.  Between long brooding sessions where I offer god himself anything in exhange for just a little more time with Mel.....  Girlfriend.....  Meh poor dead girlfriend...

 

-who says he will tell us the secret of killing people with face lasers-- face lasers from a man who calls,himself..  Laser _Face_!  Coincidence?  Or deadly threat?

 

I call myself Rick!  _you_ call me Laserface...  Apparently....  I dont even like it!

 

So what is the secret?  When you shoot someone in the face with you face lasers, just how badly are you hurting them?

 

I take offense at that, Amanda!  That is a heck of an accusation!  I have more power than just hurting people you know?

 

Like what?

 

Well, sometimes I can dazzle their sense of sight, causing him to have to stop what he is doing and regroup.  It can give innocent bystanders a chance to flee or even allow me to do better against a more skilled opponent by hampering his ability to react or counter attack.

 

So when you laser your face laser into a victim's face, you are actually _blinding_ them...?!

 

Well, only in a manner of speaking, and it is more of a temporary disorientation; it is actually a finely-tuned fraction of my ability to control minds--

 

And how does _that_ work, Laserface?  We have never seen you do anything but blind victim after victim after victim--

 

They were criminals--

 

Who are human beings, and American Citizens--

 

 

The Martian Mandroid is _none_ of those things!

 

--who deserve due process under the law--

 

I was arresting them!

 

So about this "mind control"....

 

Oh, it is quite simple, Amanda.  A focused series of light patterns delivered directly to the optic nerve allows me to create in the target the temporary desire to do some particular thing:  put the policeman down; stop fireblasting traffic; civians are sacred and should not be touched--

 

So you can make them alter their behavior--

 

Temporarily, and only to a point, but yes, at least a little-

 

 

There you have it, Campaign City.  Laserface: zombie-maker, necrophile.

 

WHAT-?!

 

How often do you "see" this dead girlfriend of yours?  How much time,do you spend with her?  Does this desire to be able to spend 'just a few more minutes" with her stem from your premature--

 

WAIT A MINUTE!!  It isn't that _at all_!  I go to visit her grave!  I bring flowers!  I talk to her spirit.  What is _wrong_ with you?!!

 

I don't make zombies, either!  I can temporarily calm a single target by reducing their desire to so violent things.  That's it!  I dont make slaves or zombies; I just convince them that they want to be slightly more cooperative.  Even that doesn't last--

 

So your pretty much useless to stomp a rampaging berserker; is that what I am hearing?

 

II can do other things!

 

Like what?  So far, you can Flash people with a laser from your face.  You can hypnotize people with a laser from your face.  Can you do anything other than shoot a laser from your face?

 

I can overload their nervous system; if I do it perfectly, they will temporarily collapse into a dazed state of semi-consciousness-

 

Quite convenient for a necrophile, isn't it?

 

I am _not_...!  Look, all I do is used a focused pattern of light directed at their optic nerves to bypass their body's normal defenses against damage and overwhelm their sensory input centers-

 

And You do this how?  With another laser from your face?

 

Well...  Technically yes.  It's the blue one....

 

So can you do anything besides project lasers from your face?

 

Ironically, I can also shoot actual lasers from my face....

 

Really?  Yes.  I took down Amperage that way after a brief combat.

 

Amperage is small time, though.  He has been known to be brought down by SWAT members wearing insulated suits.  Are you saying that you attacked a relatively low-powered individual with the same attack that peeled away a heavily armored helmet cannon?

 

Wha-.. Oh, no; not at all.  I have a much more powerful attack that I used against Tank Top--

 

An attack that I would like to remind the audience is powerful enough to peel back steel armor!

 

Well yes, but I would never dream of using that attack on anyone that I could seriously injure with it!

 

An attack that could easily kill--

 

Never!  I am not a villain!

 

Your name is Laserface!

 

My name is _Rick_-

 

A man whose only power is a weapon of incredible devestation, launched from his face, and capable of destroying anything that he happens to be looking at-

 

You know what?  I'm leaving.  You sisnt used to be like this!  What happened?

 

Geraldo's ratings went up--

 

Yes, but no one is ever going to  take him seriously as a real journalist again. 

 

But his ratings went up. 

 

You are better than this, Amanda-

 

And you're a murderous zombie-making necrophile horror walking the streets of Campaign City, Laserface.  I'd say we're even...

 

 

You know, when you put it that way, I have to agree....

 

 

 

In short, a kick to groin is only an NND if I define it as one.  If I delarw that I have mastered the technique to the point that it does no actual contact Damage but flips you over backwards, then it is a throw (assyming I say it is).

 

I could even define it as "a kick towars the groin that is so terrifyingly powerful the target leaps over backwards to avoid it, falss over and sprains his neck in the process.

 

Just like I can define Armor as luck or as "five PD of that bullet missed me completely."

 

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Duke hit the nail on the head.  What a martial art maneuver is is what the person buying it wants it to be.  As long as the effects match up to the game mechanics you have a pretty wide leeway to define what your maneuver is.  Striking your foes nerve clusters to numb them should not be defined as a marital dodge. 

 

One problem with using real world martial arts as an explanation is that it is based on the real world.  In the real world most martial arts do not have superhuman strength.  Most real martial artists are probably not going to have a STR above 15.  An Olympic weight lifter might have a 20 STR but they rarely are world class martial artists.  For the most part that means they have about 5 extra STR to throw another person. According to the throwing chart in the book, that allows them to throw their target no more than 4M.  When performing a grab one handed you take a -5 to your STR score.  If we apply that to throw that brings down the extra STR of the martial artist to 0. So, the reason martial artist in the real world are not hurling people around is they cannot.  In a Champions game, or even a Fantasy Hero game the characters often exceed 15 STR. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK all of that doesn't really answer the question here.

 

Is a martial throw supposed to have identical effects of a grab and throw or is it a different beast?  The book isn't clear. Also

 

Quote

You base your understanding, as you say, on martial Arts.  The game doesn't. 

 

The purpose of the martial arts maneuvers is to -- get this -- simulate martial arts.  As opposed to other kinds of ordinary combat.  That's why they exist, as a mechanic to let players have characters who use martial arts.  That's why they are a separate section from both normal and optional combat maneuvers in a section called "Martial arts maneuvers."

 

Now we all know that "martial arts" has a pretty wide definition in Hero, including things like football moves or professional wrestling, but its still to simulate specialized distinct combat, different than the usual stuff other people use when they fight. So yes, the game does base the "understanding" of martial arts combat maneuvers on... martial arts.

Edited March 3 by Christopher R Taylor

[DentArthurDent]

I had a player whose character background was a defensive lineman. (We were in East Tennessee in the early to mid 80s, so Reggie White maaay have been an influence.) He wanted to be able to rush at someone and throw them backwards. Grab and Throw didn’t seem right, so we went with Move by (v/10) and Martial Throw. I’m not sure what we would do with 6e rules.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK all of that doesn't really answer the question here.

 

Is a martial throw supposed to have identical effects of a grab and throw or is it a different beast?  

 

Ah-  

 

That thing.

 

I would suggest that a grab and a throw are two different things-  I have suggested it before, actually.  You and I both participated- with several others- in a very lengthy conversation on that same subject.

 

However, not every "throw" really needs a grab maneuver-  redirecting or even tripping a charging opponent for example:  the whole "maneuver" is just pre-allocated skill levels that are in place while you makr the target fall.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The purpose of the martial arts maneuvers is to -- get this -- simulate martial arts. 

 

And get this:

 

Despite its baffling popularity,it does a p$ poor job of it.

 

Look at these maneuvers:

 

I add 2 to my OCV and reduce my OCV by one.

 

This is a martial "maneuver."

 

I reduce my DCV by one and add a die of damage.

 

This is a martial maneuver.

 

Okay, cool.  Your changes to your allocated skill levels have caused him to...  Fall, I guess?  It says fall...

 

You add a die to _what_, exactly?

 

My STR damage!

 

Oh.  Hiw do you apply your STR damage?

 

I strike!

 

Okay.

 

But there is an extra die, and a change to CV because this is a _martial_ strike!

 

Okay, got it.  How about you, Snapshot?

 

Uh, I'm gonna allocate some skill levels- I am gonna put one into my OCV and add two dice to my damage with my gun.

 

Oh.  Martial gun?  Martial bullets?

 

Nah; just some well-placed shots, I guess.  I ain't no ninja.

 

 

Got it.

 

 

I accept that a disproportionately large number of martial arts fans play HERO because "it has a dedicated and sophisticated martial Arts...  'System....'

 

But the abject refusal by intelligent people (or at least, people I have always thiught of as intelligent) to see it for precisely what it is- even in the face of Allston himself having made no secret of it-  is beyond baffling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Despite its baffling popularity, it does a p$ poor job of it.

 

Good, bad, or indifferent, its meant to simulate martial arts.  Which are different than just grappling or brawling.  Grabbing something and throwing it is not the same as how martial arts works.  The rules seem to indicate that you get the same results and it acts the same, but aren't very explicit or clear about it.

 

As for the argument that martial artists are not typically gigantically strong, sure.  But they also balance on leaves, run up walls, etc in movies and other source material.  Its just not part of the genre to legsweep someone and send them flying for meters.

[LoneWolf]

My whole point about martial artist not being that strong is that often the characters in the game are a lot stronger.  As such they can do a lot of things that real world martial artists cannot.   In the movies martial artists do a lot of the things that the rules allow that are not realistic.  I just watched the movie Legend or Hercules and in that move they he did a lot of the things that Christopher was talking about in the first post.   He was leaping about and knocking his foes all over the place.   That is what martial arts in the Hero System are capable of.  

 

A normal person may only be able to throw someone a few meters, but a normal person is not capable of lifting several tons.  I for one have no problem letting a 30+ STR character use his martial maneuver to throw someone 10+ meters.   The character paid for the STR so let them use it.  
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 I for one have no problem letting a 30+ STR character use his martial maneuver to throw someone 10+ meters.   The character paid for the STR so let them use it.

 

But he doesn't have to use a martial maneuver.  He can just grab someone and do it, right?  But none of that answers the basic question :/

[LoneWolf]

Grab and Throw is explicitly allowed in the rules.  See 6E2 page 62 under Making a grab.  It states that if it is done in the same phase as the grab, it does not require a separate attack roll and takes not time. 

 

I would say that throwing the target at another target would at least require another attack roll, but just throwing the target does not.    

 

The section on grab also does state that you have to use both hands for a grab, or you take a -5 STR to hold on.  I would also apply that to the throw for how much extra STR the character has to throw.  
 

Edited March 4 by LoneWolf

[Grailknight]

19 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Good, bad, or indifferent, its meant to simulate martial arts.  Which are different than just grappling or brawling.  Grabbing something and throwing it is not the same as how martial arts works.  The rules seem to indicate that you get the same results and it acts the same, but aren't very explicit or clear about it.

 

As for the argument that martial artists are not typically gigantically strong, sure.  But they also balance on leaves, run up walls, etc in movies and other source material.  Its just not part of the genre to legsweep someone and send them flying for meters.

 

And as GM, you have every right to enforce your version of genre. If a PC wants his Martial Throw to do Knockback, then he has to come up with an SFX that the GM will allow.

 

For myself, Target Falls will usually occur in the same hex unless it has the Throw element which will allow same or adjacent hex landing spots.  Also remember that Martial Attacks roll an extra d6 when determining KB. You may wish to consider extending that to Throws to reduce the extra STR distance.

[unclevlad]

As I read the Martial Throw maneuver, it's neither of the options CRT opened with.  The velocity component is the *opponent's* velocity, not your velocity...that is, if your opponent is charging at you, silly person that he is, your throw gets to use his speed against him.

 

The maneuver where you charge someone is a Passing Throw...it has the FMove element.  So the velocity here is your velocity.

 

You have to consider all the maneuvers sometimes, it's not entirely clear.  But the grab and toss?  That's a Grappling Throw.  No velo component.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

As I read the Martial Throw maneuver, it's neither of the options CRT opened with.  The velocity component is the opponent's velocity, not your velocity...that is, if your opponent is charging at you, silly person that he is, your throw gets to use his speed against him.

 

I would agree with you on this, and that's how I understood it, but in the 6th edition martial arts book on page 249 it says:

 

If a character uses a Martial Maneuver with the v/10 Element (or v/6), such as a Martial Throw, he doesn’t take damage if he fails to do Knockback to the target.  The v/10 Element doesn’t impose any requirement on characters to do Knockback or suffer damage — that’s one way in which they tend to be better than the standard Move By or Move Through

 

And the only way I can figure how to interpret that is that they think you can do a martial throw by crashing into/going by your target.

 

 

Edited March 5 by Christopher R Taylor

[unclevlad]

So, if they change Martial Throw to Passing Throw...it all works fine, right?  

 

That's the simplest answer.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a few lines of clarity would be useful:

 

Martial Throw either does, or does not do full throwing effect. 

Martial throw either does, or does not work as a moving attack -- or requires a full move element to gain this ability. 

 

As I said, the rules are a bit ambiguous right now.  I'm fine as always with GMs doing what they want (doesn't that go without saying?)  I'd just love to know how the official rules are supposed to work.

Edited March 5 by Christopher R Taylor

[Grailknight]

This particular ambiguity has been around since First Edition. I doubt that anything "official" is forthcoming.

[LoneWolf]

The rules for +v/10 and +v/6 state they use relative velocity.  That means you get both your velocity and the targets.   The full move element has no bearing on that, except it may allow your velocity to be greater because you are not limited to a half move. This is the case for both marital maneuver and normal maneuvers.  

 

All the full move element does is to allow you to make a full move while performing the maneuver.  Passing Strike has both the +v/10 and the Fmove elements.   

 

The ambiguity may have existed in earlier versions, but it is not present in 6th edition.  Without the Fmove element you can still add your v/10 on a martial throw, but you can only make a half move.