Invisibility to Detect.

[Gauntlet]

In HeroDesigner what would be the best way to create an Invisibility to Detect Mutants? You can add a detect but you have to have it based on a full sense like sight, or sound or touch.

[LoneWolf]

Looking over the rules I am not sure you can buy invisibility to only a single sense.  It looks like the way to do this would be to buy it as a group and apply the limitation limited effect (6E1 160).   Detect Mutants is usually in the unusual group which is not listed in Hero Designer.  This is probably because you cannot buy powers affecting the entire unusual group.   As a work around you could buy it using another group and edit the description to change it to unusual.  

 

Simon might want to add a group other to allow for purchasing of invisibility to unusual senses.  
 

[Gauntlet]

I did find a work around. I purchased the invisibility to sight and then added it to a detect and then used the option to lower the price to take off the price of being invisible to sight.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah that's what I usually do, use adders to offset costs

[CptPatriot]

Excuse me but generally, isn't mutant detection equipment generally keyed to detect the 5-point Distinctive Features:  Mutant (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable Only By Technology Or Major Effort)?
If a person doesn't buy the DF, they aren't detected as a mutant. The presence of the powers by themselves isn't inherently detected as a mutant SFX. You don't need to buy Invisibility to Detect Mutant for that reason unless your Gamemaster is treating being detected as a mutant as part of the default treatment of the campaign. 

[Gauntlet]

In the game all mutants must purchase the Mutant DS as it is in the United States that has become controlled by the IHA. In the game all government buildings and even many private establishments have mutant detectors. To be able to go into buildings like this a mutant has to be invisible to those detectors.

[CptPatriot]

So, can you buy off the DF as a power to simulate that?

[LoneWolf]

Invisibility could represent some means of concealing the character from the detect.  This might be a mutant ability, but could also be a device.  If that is the case Invisibility would be the best way to do that.  Don’t forget that Invisibility costs END.  So, the character might have a way of concealing themselves for short periods of time. 

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, CptPatriot said:

So, can you buy off the DF as a power to simulate that?

 

No, you cannot as it is a required disadvantage for the campaign.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Removing complications is a tricky thing to do in the Hero system, you either buy em off with XPS or eat it.  You can give people complications with Transform (and in the APV I you can temporarily give them to someone with a change environment) so in theory transform could remove a complication as well.  Invisibility to a detector seems a valid in between step to me, its vs an unusual sense and there's nothing in the rules that says you cannot target a specific use of unusual sense (you cannot buy it against ALL unusual senses).

[CptPatriot]

I believe I'm being misunderstood about what I mean by buying off the Complication as a power.

Using my prior reference:

12 hours ago, CptPatriot said:

Distinctive Features:  Mutant (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable Only By Technology Or Major Effort)

 

This Distinctive Feature is worth 5 points normally.

So, instead of buying Invisibility to Mutant Detection, you allocate the same amount of points as the DF to buying the Complication off but limited as appropriate like Cost END(-½), or Inobvious Accessible Focus(-½).

I always felt this was an elegant way to handle it.

[LoneWolf]

Spending point on an undefined power is not supported by the rules.  The closest would be to putting a limitation on the DF, but for something like this it gets messy.  A GM is free to create custom powers but as a general rule should avoid duplicating existing powers.  Considering Gauntlet is the author of the Institute for Human Advancement he probably wants to keep thing as legal as possible in case he uses this in a future product.   

[Gauntlet]

13 hours ago, CptPatriot said:

This Distinctive Feature is worth 5 points normally.

 

Distinctive Features is worth more if it is always recognized and caused problems. 5 points is for a DF that does not cause much of a reaction, like having green hair. It is only a limitation because it can make you easier to recognize by someone looking for you but even so it can easily be hidden. But if you have a distinctive feature that is harder to hide or causes more reactions then it is worth more. In this case if you are detected as a mutant you cannot go into most stores and many times can be arrested just because you are a mutant. Think of it like being Black in the 1920s.

[dmjalund]

44 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Distinctive Features is worth more if it is always recognized and caused problems. 5 points is for a DF that does not cause much of a reaction, like having green hair. It is only a limitation because it can make you easier to recognize by someone looking for you but even so it can easily be hidden. But if you have a distinctive feature that is harder to hide or causes more reactions then it is worth more. In this case if you are detected as a mutant you cannot go into most stores and many times can be arrested just because you are a mutant. Think of it like being Black in the 1920s.

but if it requires special equipment/powers to detect, it is -5 (so i recall)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah in a typical mutant detection campaign its a really bad idea to be discovered as a mutant but it takes special gear, which is a push -- and then there is the "not distinctive in some cultures" has to play in as well; not only will some people simply won't care if you're a mutant but mutants won't care.  To me that looks like:

Mutant: Distinctive Features (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Technology Or Major Effort; Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)

 

And that's 5 points.

 

I mean obviously Nightcrawler's complication is different than, say, Marvel Girl's but that's the baseline.

 

That section "not concealable" is the key in this discussion; can you buy a device or take a power to cover up a distinctive feature that cannot be concealed?  Sadly um, the rules don't actually say. No, seriously that huge two volume set doesn't actually say what makes a distinctive feature "unconcealable" or how that prohibits the use of things to hide it. 

 

It sounds odd to say that Mutants cannot conceal their mutanthood but that's covered by the detectable only by tech or major effort.  Basically that means (to me at least) that its only possible to detect being a mutant in this complication with a device, but if you have that device you cannot hide your status from it.

 

To some degree we can figure it out: this is a feature so distinct and obvious that even a disguise won't hide it.  The Thing, for example.  Having a gigantic pair of wings on your back (although Angel folds them away pretty amazingly well!).  Spock can hide his ears under a hat or a cheesy 80s headband.  A dwarf cannot hide how short they are without some extraordinary effort and device (two dwarves in a trench coat).  Groot cannot hide that he's a tree even with Ben Grimm's fedora and overcoat.  But its not even touched on in the rules, its just referred to. 

And obviously a power purchased to conceal something will, even if it cannot ordinarily be concealed.  Invisibility can make a really distinct glowing amazing thing not visible (Ben Grimm being made so by Invisible Girl).  Images can conceal a dragon, despite being 60 feet long and made of scales.

Edited March 15 by Christopher R Taylor

[LoneWolf]

Not distinctive in some cultures is only if there are places it is not distinctive.  In a lot of anti-mutant campaigns that is not the case.  The prejudice against mutants is usually worldwide or at least covers the areas the players are going to be in.  The concealability is also dependent on the campaign.   Depending on how common mutant detectors are this could range from commonly used sense to major effort.  This is also probably not concealable but requires technology.  

 

Having played in some of Gauntlet's campaigns this is probably going to be 10 points. Not concealable, always recognized and causes major reactions, requires special technology.  If mutant detectors are more common it would drop to uncommonly used sense and be worth 15 points.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, again without more details than the rules give its up to the GM how to interpret this stuff.

 

Does not distinctive in some cultures mean a country you can go to or a region?  or does it just mean "among your fellow mutants"?  Or a special school run by a bald man?  The only way to really judge is to based it on your idea of how it works or to look through examples of characters and try to figure it out through that.

[Gauntlet]

In the campaign world, it is the United States that is now ruled by the IHA. While technically being a mutant isn't considered illegal yet, pretty much all of their rights have been removed. All federal/state buildings have mutant detectors and a mutant will be arrested for trying to go in there. In addition, most private establishments (grocery stores, other stores, restaurants, etc.) have mutant detectors and they will either not allow mutants at all or if you are a mutant jack up the prices incredibly. Also, any complaint about a mutant means they are automatically arrested, and trials, well let's just say that they are quick and always have the same results for mutants. The world for mutants is definitely like Germany during Hitler's early regime. No camps yet, but they definitely are in the near future. 

 

As for leaving the United States, if you do not have a proper ID, you cannot get on a plane, boat, or go through the border, and of course mutants are not allowed to have IDs of this kind.

[LoneWolf]

Not distinctive in some cultures does not mean other mutant do not react the same way.  If all the students at the school run by the bald guy, are also mutants that is the same as other mutants.  This modifier should only be applied if there other large groups were people do not react.  If mutants had their own sustainable communities where they can live freely that would justify the modifier.  If to join the community, you have leave the campaign, the modifier is not appropriate.  For example, if the campaign is located in a specific city and the mutant friendly city is on another continent and going there means you character leaves the game it would not qualify.  If the campaign involves that city, then the modifier would be appropriate.

 

What Gauntlet describes the DF should be worth 15 points.  DF: Mutant (Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable by Uncommon senses).  With mutant detectors being so common they are not considered major effort.

 

Taking the modifier Not distinctive in some cultures where you have to leave the game to find that culture is like taking hunted by Orcs in a campaign where Orcs do not exist.  

Edited March 15 by LoneWolf

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Taking the modifier Not distinctive in some cultures where you have to leave the game to find that culture is like taking hunted by Orcs in a campaign where Orcs do not exist. 

 

Well my concern with this idea is that this means you're distinctive to your fellow mutants: they have the negative reaction to you as well.  Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Stanley Teriaca]

I think Darkness VS Detect Mutant would be more interesting.

[LoneWolf]

@Christopher R Taylor You have a point about that, but I don’t think that only in some cultures should apply.  

 

Maybe this would be better off done as a social complication instead of a distinctive feature.  They do list Minority in the book as a social complication.  Since it may not be obvious you are a mutant, the frequency would probably be frequently instead of very frequently, but the effects might be more severe so be considered major instead of minor.  That works out to still be about 15 points.  

 

@Stanley Teriaca  Doing it as darkness has a chance to tip off the fact there is something wrong.  When the mutant detector stops working at all the people using it are going to become suspicious.  Darkness is noticeable.  
 

[Gauntlet]

Another way to do it might also be as a Hunted:

 

Hunted:  Law Enforcement 11- (Mo Pow; NCI; Watching)

15 Points

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

@Stanley Teriaca  Doing it as darkness has a chance to tip off the fact there is something wrong.  When the mutant detector stops working at all the people using it are going to become suspicious.  Darkness is noticeable.  

 

Yeah Darkness is perceptible, so the scanner would pick up a void, interference, and out on the street people might notice something around you like an effect that is blocking the detect.

[LoneWolf]

Thinking it over the social complication is probably the best option.  Hunted by law enforcement makes the law more unfavorable, but does not cause society as a whole to react negatively to them.   Distinctive Feature could work, but it focus on recognition and reactions.  If someone is known as a mutant but not detected it technically does not affect them.  A social complication is more focused on how society treats them rather than how they are identified.