Southern Cross Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 If you want to avoid the penalties from the Move-By & Move-Through maneuvers,why not just make a martial art with the appropriate maneuvers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Re: Martial Art Maneuvers Originally posted by Southern Cross If you want to avoid the penalties from the Move-By & Move-Through maneuvers,why not just make a martial art with the appropriate maneuvers? Most sane GMs won't allow custom maneuvers for game balance purposes. You can design some pretty disgusting maneuvers if you're a brick and/or have lots of movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted December 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 True enough.I shudder to think of someone writing up the ancient Lancashire martial art of Ecky-Thump (from the Goodies episode Kung Fu Kapers) which is mostly about bopping people on the head with black puddings. The primary maneuver in this art must be built with the following elements:+2 OCV,+2d6N-damage,Target Falls for a cost of 5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenixcrest Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 It says right in FREd that you can't Move-By/Through with a martial maneuver because the Move-By/Through is a maneuver unto itself. Therefore, you could move-through with an HKA or and HA, because those are just things that you're "holding," but you can't do it with a Martial Strike, because that would be doing two things at once. That's how I interpreted it, anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Originally posted by Fenixcrest It says right in FREd that you can't Move-By/Through with a martial maneuver because the Move-By/Through is a maneuver unto itself. Therefore, you could move-through with an HKA or and HA, because those are just things that you're "holding," but you can't do it with a Martial Strike, because that would be doing two things at once. That's how I interpreted it, anyway... Southern Cross is talking about making a custom martial maneuver that duplicates the effects of movethrough/by without any of the penalties. The procedure for creating custom maneuvers is in the Ultimate Martial Artist. An example of an abusive custom maneuver: All Out Attack. 5 points +1 OCV -2 DCV Fmove Str + V/3 damage. This allows you to do everything a movethrough can do, with a bonus to OCV, a lesser DCV penalty, and the attacker takes no damage regardless of whether he knocks back the defender. And all for the cost of a mere 5 points. An actual maneuver that would be abusive in superheroic campaigns: Passing Strike 5 points +1 OCV +0 DCV Str + V/5 Fmove. Everything that a move-by can do except better CVs, and Str isn't halved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Southern Cross is talking about making a custom martial maneuver that duplicates the effects of movethrough/by without any of the penalties.(snip)This allows you to do everything a movethrough can do This isn't true. Martial Arts maneuvers with the FMove element do not behave identically with Move By and Move Through. Take a look at the FAQ entries for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Well, you could create a Martial Move By maneuver, after all we have a regular block and a martial block... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Re: Martial Art Maneuvers Originally posted by Southern Cross If you want to avoid the penalties from the Move-By & Move-Through maneuvers,why not just make a martial art with the appropriate maneuvers? I think buying levels with the manouvers would be more appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth This isn't true. Martial Arts maneuvers with the FMove element do not behave identically with Move By and Move Through. Take a look at the FAQ entries for them. As far as I can tell from reading the FAQ, the only thing you can do with a regular movethrough/by that you can't with a martial maneuver is the multiple moveby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 I thought UMA already did this with "Passing strike" ...?But some GMs won't even let this "official" enhancement into the game due to ballence concerns.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Originally posted by pinecone I thought UMA already did this with "Passing strike" ...?But some GMs won't even let this "official" enhancement into the game due to ballence concerns.... Yep. Passing Strike is the Martial equivalent to Move-by. The main difference being the (much) lower attack and defense penalties and a character using Passing Strike doesn't take any damage whatsoever. That makes it much more attractive than both Move-through and Move-by. I understand GM's who find that kind of attack daunting. Here's a fix: apply a maximum damage add to Passing Strike. Treat the characters STR damage as Base damage (like with a normal damage weapon) and allow the damage adds from Passing Strike only up to the maximum (if a character has a STR of 20 doing 4D6 base damage, Passing Strike can only increase this up to 8D6 damage and no higher) However, allow Move-through and Move-by to exceed the normal damage limits. Thus, for Speedster characters, Move-through and Move-by will be much more attractive (especially Move-through) but this doesn't penalize Martial Artist type characters who don't necessarily have the defenses to withstand a Move-through assault on a tough opponent...(they can still use Passing strike to generate decent damage without knocking themsevels unconscious) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted December 27, 2003 Report Share Posted December 27, 2003 Originally posted by Gary As far as I can tell from reading the FAQ, the only thing you can do with a regular movethrough/by that you can't with a martial maneuver is the multiple moveby. Ah, but Martial Manuevers can be "Swept" acheiving the same end result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite Yep. Passing Strike is the Martial equivalent to Move-by. The main difference being the (much) lower attack and defense penalties and a character using Passing Strike doesn't take any damage whatsoever. That makes it much more attractive than both Move-through and Move-by. I understand GM's who find that kind of attack daunting. I don't see any problem with using UMA's Passing Strike maneuver in a superheroic campaign as long as the superhero in question doesn't exceed the campaign's damage rules or guidelines when performing one. I've seen plenty of speedster designs over the two decades plus I've played Champions who had purchased extra defenses and HA to deliver extra damage during a Move Through/By, and which often cost even less than 5 Real Points by being put in a Multipower. There are several such packages listed under the Speedster section of USDB. It's still a question of game balance. As always the cure for abuse is GM control of his game: "I'm sorry, Whiz Kid, but with your Running velocity and Strength you can dish out 18d6 damage with your Passing Strike and you know the game's limit is 15d6. So you need to lower your Strength, Running inches, or get rid of the Passing Strike maneuver. It's your choice." Either that or introduce Whiz Kid to Martial Throw the first time he attempts that maneuver. I've looked at purchasing Passing Strike for my own fast MA Zl'f (30" Running, 15 STR, 3 DCs) and rejected it because it would make her exceed my self imposed damage limit on her and also violates her core concept as a hand to hand fighter rather than a speedster. She closes (albeit quickly) and fights; she doesn't race past and strike like a speedster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted December 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Oh,Trebuchet,according to my calculations Zl'f would do 12d6 damage with a Passing Strike.If I'm right that means you've limited her to,at most,11d6 of damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 I was looking at the UMA the other day and I discovered that Passing Strike can be used in the same way as Move-through or Move-by, but with limitations. Apparently (according to the UMA) you can use Passing strike to hit multiple opponents, but they must be in a fairly straight line and in adjecent hexes to one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Originally posted by Southern Cross Oh,Trebuchet, according to my calculations Zl'f would do 12d6 damage with a Passing Strike. If I'm right that means you've limited her to, at most, 11d6 of damage. That is correct. With her SPD 9 and following our campaign damage guidelines of SPD + DC <= 20, I permit her to do a maximum of 11d6 without Pushing. As currently built she does 10d6 with a Sacrifice Strike as her maximum attack. If she needs to do more damage she Pushes, which may exceed the normal limits. That's how I envision her: Hitting often but not hitting hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet That is correct. With her SPD 9 and following our campaign damage guidelines of SPD + DC <= 20, I permit her to do a maximum of 11d6 without Pushing. As currently built she does 10d6 with a Sacrifice Strike as her maximum attack. If she needs to do more damage she Pushes, which may exceed the normal limits. That's how I envision her: Hitting often but not hitting hard. By my calculations, Zl'f has 9 speed, 30" running. That's 540" turn noncombat, or roughly 200 miles/hour. I hope she didn't buy any additional noncombat multiples... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted December 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Personally, I hope Zl'f has bought Reduced Endurance for her Running,since it would cost her 6 END each phase she uses 28 or more inches of Running.With her 9 SPD, she would expend 54 END per TURN!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Gary By my calculations, Zl'f has 9 speed, 30" running. That's 540" turn noncombat, or roughly 200 miles/hour. I hope she didn't buy any additional noncombat multiples... Nope, no extra Non-Combat multiples. I decided 201.3 MPH was fast enough. In an earlier incarnation (Before 5th Edition) she could (barely) hit Mach 2. When I redesigned her for FREd I decided to reemphasize her gymnastics attributes and deemphasize her speedster qualities. I now run her as a fast martial artist rather than as a quasi-speedster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Southern Cross Personally, I hope Zl'f has bought Reduced Endurance for her Running, since it would cost her 6 END each phase she uses 28 or more inches of Running. With her 9 SPD, she would expend 54 END per TURN!!! She has Reduced END on all but the free 6" of her Running. She uses only 1 or 2 END at any Running speed from 1" - 30" (10" of her Running is in a MP, and that portion is bought down to 0 END.) Of course, she still has only 36 total END (18 CON) anyway, which means in a typical combat Turn using martial arts with a 15 STR she'll still use half or more of her END even if she doesn't Push or use one of the full-END cost attack slots in her 45 point MP. She's not really built for long drawn out fights, although with a 12 REC she can last longer than you'd expect. (And with a 9 SPD, there's always the option of taking a Recovery during a Turn, although she very seldom does this. She tends to go full bore until the fight is over. In our last battle she finished the fight with 3 STUN left after being Stunned and then taking out two villains. That's fairly typical for her.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Hey Treb, I've registered a complaint about you in the Complaint Department thread of NGD. Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Hey Treb, I've registered a complaint about you in the Complaint Department thread of NGD. Check it out! I tried to follow your arguments but all those big words hurt my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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