Balancing damage and defenses

[unclevlad]

I think buying such high CON was a holdover from figured characteristics, because that also bought you 6 REC, 60 END, and 15 STUN...and remember, those were much more expensive.  REC was 2 per (1 per in 6E), END was 1 point for 2 (instead of 1 point for 5) and STUN is 1 point per.  I also think some of this is part of the figured-characteristics trap, if you will...that you're getting *so much* for buying it up that it becomes your idee fixe.  Cuz...remember...40 CON is still 60 points.  When I consider 5E builds, it's something I've fallen into, for sure.

 

I also question how well thought out many of those builds are.  Because...fine, you'll never get stunned, but overall, you're likely a lot easier to KO.  Yeah, you can take *one* 30-STUN shot...but the 2nd?  

 

And that's with figured characteristics.  Without it, high CON's cheap-ish, sure, but its major bonus is adjusting your stunned threshold.  OK, there's a small advantage for CON-based rolls, but those are unusual, and you get into diminishing returns after 14- anyway.  The advantage of the high CON is, ok, you don't get stunned by *any* form of attack...a 30 CON means you're not stunned by a 7d6 Blast vs. Power Def...without needing the wonky rules related to Damage Negation and Reduction.  (If I have 50% Energy DR and 25% Physical DR, which one applies versus the PowD blast?)  But this only goes so far...again, it's not helping you absorb multiple strikes and stay upright.

 

A PC can take the automaton abilities, but they're intended to model things you have to bash into smithereens, bone dust, or metal fragments.  Takes No Stun is very expensive...and it triples the cost of defenses.  You have to buy those to pretty much the same level as the 'normal' build...but at high cost.  On top of the baseline TNS cost.  I've played around with this a bit...in many cases in supers lit, the duplicator creates constructs, not biological duplicates.  If they get obliterated...well, that's what they're for.  I was even blowing off the Altered Duplicates, so long as the only real change was shifting the defenses to Automaton style, and possibly adding Life Support.  IIRC...I never got something I was all that happy with, but that was some time ago.  I've worked out a few more tricks since then, maybe I could get it to work.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Another consideration is how high to buy CON. I’ve seen a number of brick types built with a 40 CON

 

Constitution is relatively cheap these days but still, that's 30 points on just not being stunned (and minor side things like change environment, etc).  But yes that might be more a holdover to when a point of CON bought you like 4½ points of stats.  With good defenses, 30 should be more than enough to prevent a stunning attack in most cases.

[LoneWolf]

With figured stats buying a 40 CON cost 60 points but gave you 63 points of figured stats.  If you bumped it up to 43 CON, it cost you 66 points for 71 points in figured stats.   Bricks with figured stats cost less than other types of characters.  If I bought 45 STR and 43 CON, it cost me 101 points and I got 117 points in figured stats.   You could then buy down your END to save even more points. 

[unclevlad]

40 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Constitution is relatively cheap these days but still, that's 30 points on just not being stunned (and minor side things like change environment, etc).  But yes that might be more a holdover to when a point of CON bought you like 4½ points of stats.  With good defenses, 30 should be more than enough to prevent a stunning attack in most cases.

 

Well, not quite.  10 points of CON gave 2 ED, 2 REC, 20 END, and 5 STUN.  That's 21 points...for +10 CON. 

 

2 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

With figured stats buying a 40 CON cost 60 points but gave you 63 points of figured stats.  If you bumped it up to 43 CON, it cost you 66 points for 71 points in figured stats.   Bricks with figured stats cost less than other types of characters.  If I bought 45 STR and 43 CON, it cost me 101 points and I got 117 points in figured stats.   You could then buy down your END to save even more points. 

 

And higher-STR martial artists, because they'd buy the DEX to get the free CV.  That's the big one.  The SPD increase was paid for...DEX is 3 points per in 5E, and that 3rd point directly pays for the SPD.  it's the CV...6 points for +3 DEX gives +10 points for the CV.

 

STR and CON actually gave about the same *net* freebies...STR gave PD, REC, STUN, and let's not forget, Leap.  CON gave ED, REC, and STUN...and END.  But the END boost is covered by CON's higher base cost.  It's 2 per, not 1 per as in 6E, so +10 CON, in this sense, gives +11 in free characteristic points.  +10 STR gives +15 in freebies...and selling back the Leap may well be rather painless.  

 

[Steve]

Just to expand on something I said before, the Cannot Be Stunned ability I typically use is limited by requiring a CON roll, which seems to roughly replicate buying a 40+ CON.

Edited April 4 by Steve

[unclevlad]

Mmm...that reminds me of something you might want.  It's damage-based END costs for defenses...AVP I, page 62.  You trade off END for STUN...so, ok, your head's not spinning per se, but after a while you just get beaten to exhaustion.  It's a -1/2 limitation if it's 1 END per 5 STUN or fraction thereof, by the book...so it doesn't use the rounding rules.  6 STUN blocked?  2 END, not 1.  It's a -1/4 limitation if it's 1 END per 10 STUN.

 

You could use this with negation or reduction...at least to a degree.  You might want a complex combo like this...I'm assuming 12d6...

10 defense

2 Negation (no limits)

then 5 or 6 dice of negation that's STUN only, and damage based END cost;  OR, 50% DR that's at least damage based END cost...may or may not be stun only

 

The DR has the advantage that you don't get stunned...as long as you have the END to burn.  When that's gone?  Uh...oh..............

 

If you go with the DBEC on the negation, the trick would be, you'd want to count the pips, not just the BODY, because that can alter the END you have to spend.  This isn't a case where I'd use "standard effect" principles.  If that'd be a pain, then go with the DR.  DBEC actually feels like it was made for DR.

 

Note that there are details about how DBEC works that I haven't mentioned....

[Gauntlet]

6 hours ago, Steve said:

Another consideration is how high to buy CON. I’ve seen a number of brick types built with a 40 CON. I get that it’s supposed to represent super-health and tough to stun.

 

But if the defenses are constructed right, a high CON seems more of a point sink than might be necessary. A 30 CON on a brick with high enough defenses might be reasonable.

 

Although it’s not RAW legal, I’ve played around with concepts that use the Automaton ability Cannot Be Stunned in various limited fashions instead of buying really high CON.

 

I definitely have overbought CON. I have one character with a CON of 68. He is not a brick, but one who has an extremely fast regeneration ability making it where he doesn't feel pain and never tires. His regeneration speed made Wolverine's look like he was a normal in his 90s with cellular decay issues.🤪

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Well, not quite.  10 points of CON gave 2 ED, 2 REC, 20 END, and 5 STUN.  That's 21 points...for +10 CON.

 

So around 3 points (the 1 point of CON, plus the 1/10th of all that) per +1 CON.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

That is one reason I actually like getting rid of figured stats.  It lowers the incentive to buy up primary stats.  It seemed like every character had at least a 23 ST and 23 CON including the supposedly frail magic based character. 

[unclevlad]

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53 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

That is one reason I actually like getting rid of figured stats.  It lowers the incentive to buy up primary stats.  It seemed like every character had at least a 23 ST and 23 CON including the supposedly frail magic based character. 

 

Hard to say 'no' to the extra REC, END, and STUN...especially because they were so expensive to buy up.  It could actually be *cheaper* to buy an END reserve to cover certain things, rather than buy up the figured characteristics.  

[Gauntlet]

51 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

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Hard to say 'no' to the extra REC, END, and STUN...especially because they were so expensive to buy up.  It could actually be *cheaper* to buy an END reserve to cover certain things, rather than buy up the figured characteristics.  

 

In some cases it is a good idea to utilize an END Reserve. I think it is a good idea for END used for spells as it allows a weak individual who cannot run very far still be a great Magi.

[unclevlad]

IIRC, the setup where it became Really Sweet was

 

a)  fairly strong...35 END, IIRC.

b)  invisible Extra Limbs with Stretching...force limbs.  Stretching had "does not cross intervening STR" because hitting them really wouldn't do anything.  Might've also included Instant.

c)  Teleport

d)  force field

e)  TINY MP with 1 DC HAs (normal, AVAD Power Def, AVAD Power Def, does BODY);  the rest of the damage was MA DCs.  This also led to a Martial Flash attack...versus Power Def, IIRC.  

 

So the STR was personal END, the powers were END reserve.  The stats gave a reasonable baselne END and REC to cover the STR, altho I think I bought it up *some*...but buying for the powers?  Nope.  For that, it's cheaper to buy the END reserve.

 

I think I've also done it for...well, not wimpy mage types, but energy projectors rarely have *really* high STR.  15 STR is 200 kg;  I looked around and lifting 2x your body weight is elite lifting...ergo, not super.  This is for supers, and the background is, heroes are *trained*...and that includes extensive PT.  So the 15 STR is still fundamentally appropriate...but clearly not exploiting figured stats.  Then again, I'm setting up for higher-powered supers, I give myself points to play with.  I dislike trying to fit competent at magic into a 200 point structure...because I really dislike running the standard stereotype.  Monte Cook made comments in his Arcana Unearthed/Evolved books using a mage character, that I often loved, assaulting the D&D tropes.  Mages have to carry packs and hike dozens of miles every day.  They only have a couple spells per day at low levels.  Yet they *ignore* basic PT and at least SOME weapons work?  Even if it's common weapons?  Plus, the other comment I loved was wearing robes.  Huh?  Oh, so advertise your strengths and weaknesses, and wear stuff that isn't exactly travel-friendly?  And the last...I can't remember the exact quote, and it's a sidebar, so finding it is a pain, but it's something like

 

A wizard who uses his magic only to slay monsters, while eating cold trail rations and sleeping rough, Does Not Get It.  With all the power at his disposal, why endure privation?

 

It actually echoes something I've felt, that's largely peculiar to D&D's incredibly limited magical approach...there's virtually no everyday magic.  I *love* everyday magic.

 

Mmm...sorry for the digression.  We now return you to our regularly scheduled......if totally derailed...thread.....

[Hugh Neilson]

On 4/3/2024 at 11:55 AM, LoneWolf said:

Don’t get me wrong I am a big fan of damage negation, but it is better at creating a high threshold of damage.  It is great for characters that are immune to damage below a specific point. 

 

This can be a campaign setting issue rather than character by character. We want characters immune to 8DC normal attacks, but 12DC Supers will sometimes bloody each other? 9 DC Negation and 3 Defenses.  12DC drops to 3d6, which will get a BOD through on an above average roll, and only inflict 8 STUN past defenses on average.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 11:55 AM, LoneWolf said:

Damage Reduction is better for the character that is not immune but can take a lot of damage and still keep functioning. It really depends on how you want your character to work.

 

As has been noted, DR is better against above average attacks.  Consider a 12DC game again.  Typical defenses of, say, 25. An average hit does 17 STUN.  Drop defenses to 10 and add on 50% DR.  First, we will see blood - average roll of 42/12 means 2 BOD, halved = 1, past defenses.  STUN 42-10 = 32 = 16 past defenses.  Comparable.

 

Now toss in Grond doing 18d6.  Defenses mean 63 - 25 = 38 STUN.  63-10=53/2 = 26 STUN. Significant.   But you also take 8/2 = 4 BOD.

 

At some point for really high power, buying Reduction instead of more defenses makes sense.  If you toss around 20d6 routinely, 25 defenses blocks all BOD.  If we only want about 20 damage from an average hit, you need another 25 Defenses, or 5 defenses and 50% Reduction.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 5:46 PM, Gauntlet said:

One thing I normally do in my games is reduce the SPEED for characters or villains. I just can't see that person, no matter how trained, have a SPEED higher than 5. I will make villains who are not speedsters or martial artists have a SPEED of 3 or 4 (and even 2 occasionally). I find it rather crazy in those games where the incredibly slow Brick has a SPEED of 6.

 

This is a historical artifact of not assessing how high Normals went in 1e. If we took every published Super, reduced SPD by 2, DEX by 10 and CV by 3, they would be back in human range for those where SPD/DEX is not a schtick, and still interact with each other in the same manner.  Agents could be toned down a bit and be a greater threat, and a normal cop or soldier coud actually hit many Supers.

 

Reverse compatibility would be lost if they did that now, though. That could be good for Hero - most other games avoid reverse compatibility between editions  - buy this edition's version of that ability/character instead.

Edited April 7 by Hugh Neilson

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

As has been noted, DR is better against above average attacks.  Consider a 12DC game again.  Typical defenses of, say, 25. An average hit does 17 STUN.  Drop defenses to 10 and add on 50% DR.  First, we will see blood - average roll of 42/12 means 2 BOD, halved = 1, past defenses.  STUN 42-10 = 32 = 16 past defenses.  Comparable.

 

Now toss in Grond doing 18d6.  Defenses mean 63 - 25 = 38 STUN.  63-10=53/2 = 26 STUN. Significant.   But you also take 8/2 = 4 BOD.

 

 

The big problem is, let's put the 25 DEF as 10 resistant, 15 normal, so, 30 points.  The 10 defenses...IMO, with DR, you really want to push resistant def, so let me say 8 resistant, 2 normal, for 14 points.  Plus 30 for the DR is 44.  So it better be significant, cuz it's substantially more points.  Even if you switch to 14 resistant and 11 normal, that's just 32 points.

 

By RAW, the DR applies to several other things...even if I'm not exactly fond of those...so I'm not saying it's a bad expenditure here...but it is notably more.  I'd still love a form of DR that retains application to killing damage, but eliminates the power def/special def aspects.

[Hugh Neilson]

Agreed that DR is expensive in a "standard Supers" context.  Move to a "Cosmic" context and it starts looking better - like most fixed cost abilities.

 

If the average attack caps at 12 DCs, I probably want 15 rDEF to shave off the BOD.  I can then buy +10 PD/ED for 20 (and take 17 from a typical attack).  25% Reduction (nonresistant) means 27 - 7 = 20 from a standard attack.  A bit more damage from normal attacks and killing attacks, and a bit less from AVADs.

 

If the average attack caps at 24 DCs (obviously a very high-powered game), I might want as much as 30 rDEF to deal with KAs (maybe I can get by with 25).  That leaves 54 STUN from a typical attack, so if I want that down to, say, 24 STUN, I would need another 30/30 defenses for 60 points.  For 60, I could have 50% resistant DR.  Nonresistant would only cost 40.  Either gets me down to 27 STUN from a standard attack, but also halves AVAD (and STUN/BOD drains if we go Resistant - if not, I could buy 20 Power Defense with the extra points).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Some powers seem like they are most ideal for NPCs where you don't worry so much about the cost as the build.

[Steve]

I confess I was a big proponent of using Damage Reduction in character builds until I started really examining Damage Negation, especially since it could be pretty cheap if limited to STUN Only and also Non-Resistant in some cases.

 

Since the damage is removed from affecting the character, it also reduces hit location adjustments. Damage Reduction gets into some interesting math when hit locations are involved.

 

Damage Negation really shines in lower damage settings. A Heroic character like Rocky Balboa just seems to have Damage Negation, being able to take hit after hit to the face.

 

I’ve also played with building it using limited locations per the armor construction rules to get even more interesting flavors out of it. I was building a boxer character and learned that having a tough chin was actually a thing, so a limited location Damage Negation ability seemed reasonable.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Part of boxing training is literally building up PD (toughening up so that hits hurt less), but some people are just... tougher.  Guys like Jake LaMotta could just absorb an outrageous amount of punishment.

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Agreed that DR is expensive in a "standard Supers" context.  Move to a "Cosmic" context and it starts looking better - like most fixed cost abilities.

 

If the average attack caps at 12 DCs, I probably want 15 rDEF to shave off the BOD.  I can then buy +10 PD/ED for 20 (and take 17 from a typical attack).  25% Reduction (nonresistant) means 27 - 7 = 20 from a standard attack.  A bit more damage from normal attacks and killing attacks, and a bit less from AVADs.

 

If the average attack caps at 24 DCs (obviously a very high-powered game), I might want as much as 30 rDEF to deal with KAs (maybe I can get by with 25).  That leaves 54 STUN from a typical attack, so if I want that down to, say, 24 STUN, I would need another 30/30 defenses for 60 points.  For 60, I could have 50% resistant DR.  Nonresistant would only cost 40.  Either gets me down to 27 STUN from a standard attack, but also halves AVAD (and STUN/BOD drains if we go Resistant - if not, I could buy 20 Power Defense with the extra points).

 

Some of what you're saying reflects the scaling issues that've been mentioned, at these levels...how much STUN would be OK?  Or to recast...what are the appropriate ranges for CON and STUN?  Also note:  you're looking at close to 100 STUN from a killing attack, a significant percentage of the time.  32+ BODY is 24%...1/3 of the time the STUN mult is 3.  So that's 96+ STUN about 8% of the time...and nonresistant DR doesn't apply.

 

Side thought here...the value of the reduction against Drain STUN or Drain BODY is likely going *down*...because the need for Power Def, and the amount of it, is high.  Instead of STUN...ok, I'll drain your END!!!  Bwaaaahhaahaahahaa!!  Even after the halving rule...boom!!!  there goes 100 END.  OCV and SPD aren't halved?  8 OCV...ha!!! Flail away, Hero Boy!  4 SPD...turtle city!  And because you're doing so much, the return will take a very long time.  So you'd better have that 20 Power Def anyway.

 

So it looks like...don't go nonresistant, go resistant, but STUN only, and keep the rDEF a bit higher, like the 30.  And go with the Power Def.  STUN only rDR still addresses the STUN from an AVAD.

 

4 hours ago, Steve said:

I confess I was a big proponent of using Damage Reduction in character builds until I started really examining Damage Negation, especially since it could be pretty cheap if limited to STUN Only and also Non-Resistant in some cases.

 

Since the damage is removed from affecting the character, it also reduces hit location adjustments. Damage Reduction gets into some interesting math when hit locations are involved.

 

Damage Negation really shines in lower damage settings. A Heroic character like Rocky Balboa just seems to have Damage Negation, being able to take hit after hit to the face.

 

I’ve also played with building it using limited locations per the armor construction rules to get even more interesting flavors out of it. I was building a boxer character and learned that having a tough chin was actually a thing, so a limited location Damage Negation ability seemed reasonable.

 

STUN-only DN is basically the same cost as straight PD or ED, assuming no other limitations.  3 dice of DN, STUN only, is 10 points...and 3 dice of STUN is 10.5.  Wash.  And hey, you still get to reduce the STUN from the AVAD, altho not as many.  Any little bit helps.  

 

For characters using an HFO, I often establish a 'baseline' defense using, say, 3/3 Armor and 3/3 Negation...always on.  Same for an energy projector type...his body's 'saturated' with his energy.  The major defense might then be more Armor, and more STUN-only DN...that's OIAID or Nonpersistent.

 

DN also works better than DR, generally, because my premise is, getting stunned or KOd is *extremely* bad.  Hugh's 27 STUN after the DR...how many hits before KO?  Not many.  In the comics genre...that's probably OK.  In a grittier one...not so much.  Taking the DR still leaves too much STUN getting through, much of the time.  And as noted, DR's fixed cost, fixed benefit...it's a lot harder to mold into the shape you want.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

I would not allow a limitation for Stun Only defenses unless the character's other defenses leave BOD damage a reasonable possibility.  I don't see that very often.

 

As I see complications and limitations as the player's communication of the kind of challenges they want to face, limiting defenses against BOD means that they want BOD damage to come up as a real threat.

Edited April 10 by Hugh Neilson

[unclevlad]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I would not allow a limitation for Stun Only defenses unless the character's other defenses leave BOD damage a reasonable possibility.  I don't see that very often.

 

As I see complications and limitations as the player's communication of the kind of challenges they want to face, limiting defenses against BOD means that they want BOD damage to come up as a real threat.

 

That's the design paradigm, particularly with STUN only DN.  Figure:  if buying just base defenses, the nonresistant defense is being bought mostly to counter STUN.  What would you rather people buy...15 Armor and 12 PD...or something with STUN only DN?  I suspect you don't see it because we're creatures of habit.  

 

Also note that it's not significantly cheaper.  3 dice of DN is 10 points and counters....10.5 STUN.

 

The combination of Armor and STUN-only DN allows very nicely tailored defenses for any configuration, without spending an arm and a leg, or being totally impervious to normal-attack BODY.  And it needs no house rules.

[Steve]

Damage Negation versus Stun Only is also interesting when damage dice rolled against the target are done with different colors, if everyone at the table is okay with doing it that way.

 

So the dice that are only contributing BODY damage to the overall roll may roll very high on average amongst themselves. But since they are having their STUN negated, they could roll all fives or sixes and would still not count for STUN. They could still be contributing the bulk of BODY damage in such a case though.

 

 

[unclevlad]

Different color or style.  Just segregate into pools and roll each pool separately, making sure they don't get mixed.  Roll the BODY first, that takes no time to count, then roll the STUN.  Heck, if you want to speed things up, don't even roll the STUN only...just give it 1 BODY per die.  Especially if we're talking higher damage.  Whatever works for your game and group.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 4/10/2024 at 12:05 PM, unclevlad said:

That's the design paradigm, particularly with STUN only DN.  Figure:  if buying just base defenses, the nonresistant defense is being bought mostly to counter STUN.  What would you rather people buy...15 Armor and 12 PD...or something with STUN only DN?  I suspect you don't see it because we're creatures of habit.  

 

Also note that it's not significantly cheaper.  3 dice of DN is 10 points and counters....10.5 STUN.

 

The combination of Armor and STUN-only DN allows very nicely tailored defenses for any configuration, without spending an arm and a leg, or being totally impervious to normal-attack BODY.  And it needs no house rules.

 

On 4/10/2024 at 6:36 PM, unclevlad said:

Different color or style.  Just segregate into pools and roll each pool separately, making sure they don't get mixed.  Roll the BODY first, that takes no time to count, then roll the STUN.  Heck, if you want to speed things up, don't even roll the STUN only...just give it 1 BODY per die.  Especially if we're talking higher damage.  Whatever works for your game and group.

 

I come back to defenses that only block STUN having no real limitation if the character's other defenses are likely to block all the BOD.  If a player insists on point savings from defenses that don't defend against BOD, that suggests that the player expects this to come into play so that his character takes BOD damage.

 

The pricing of damage negation factors in affecting attacks other than normal and killing attacks. Given it has only been in 6e, maybe the pricing needs fine tuning.  If so, the answer is to fix the pricing, not allow a non-limiting limitation for some uses of the ability.

 

To the rolls, I would want a mechanism that allows a single roll to avoid slowing the game with extra rolls, so I like Steve's approach that the rolls are made with dice that are differentiated from "does STUN" and "does not do STUN".  If I as GM have to do a lot more work, I'm not likely to allow the construct.

 

Another approach would be rolling the negation - attacker rolls full damage, defender rolls negation to subtract - but that's also going to slow down the game.

Edited April 12 by Hugh Neilson

[unclevlad]

You're focusing too much on the fact that it's a limitation..rather than the fact that the system has extremely limited methods to reduce STUN.  And what you're saying is, if STUN only isn't allowed, then I'm forced to spend points to no purpose...because I only need about 1/3 of that defense to stop BODY.  Why not simply buy base PD/ED?  I can have 12 hardened def for 15 points...or 3 dice of negation that would give 10 against a normal attack, and less against an AP due to DC adjustment.  Also note that the gap grows wider and wider as the scale increases.  BODY's stopped by defenses a bit more than the DC total...somewhere around 1/3 to 2/5 of the total defenses is for stopping the BODY, but when you're getting into 14 and 16 DCs, that's a LOT of points spent that's useless.  

 

In short?  The meta rule is pay for what you get...and get what you pay for.  You're not getting what you paid for....or, you're giving a really high value to the ancillary defenses.  With DR, perhaps...that might be the case.  But with DN, it's massively damped.  Take a Mental Blast...at 10 points per, it takes 2 DCs negation to subtract 1d6 from a mental blast.  On the plus side, to be sure...it's applying to any such.  And there's need to set what it defends against...that NND LS: Cold from Mr. Freeze, the mental attack of Brain Cramp, or the AVAD Power Def from Darklight...defends agaisnt em all, even in the same phase.

 

If you value this, tho...recognize that STUN only negation does NOT help against the BODY from AVAD, Does BODY, or the damage from Drain STUN or Drain BODY.  So there's a real loss of functionality for you.