Character levels

[Vorvodoss]

How do you handle character "levels" in terms of game play? When one of your players (especially a new HERO player) asks you what level their character is at, what do you tell them and how do you determine this?

[Tim]

I usually respond that a 25+25 character is approximately equal to a 1st level Ad&D character. A 50+50 is about equl to a fourth or fifth. A 75+75 about 8th or 9th level. And a 100+100 is about equal to 15th.

 

These are my approximations and may not be how others figure it.

[Pattern Ghost]

I tell 'em no levels in Hero.

[Arthur]

No such thing. It's like comparing English to Math (both are languages) and asking where the verbs and nouns are in an equation. You could sort of finagle a rough equivalent, but there is no real correlation per se.

 

Having said that, Tim's approach is about as close as you're gonna get.

[Killer Shrike]

I dont use Levels myself, but for players that are more comfortable with that kind of thinking, I refer them to:

 

AD&D 2e style:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion2e/Class2e/ADD2e.htm

 

and

 

3e Style:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Class3e/DD3e.htm

 

At the bottom of each page is a chart.

[TheEmerged]

Of course, you can have levels if you want them I actually use a similar mechanic to help define how powerful PC's are relative to NPC's. It's not something the players go "Woohoo! I earned enough experience to become Level 3!" -- it's something that lets me say "This NPC needs to be powerful enough to take the Level 2 PC's by herself, so she'll need to be Level 3..."

[Vorvodoss]

I was surprised, when I looked at KillerShrike's conversions list, to find that a level one character is effectively a very low point. I made the characters in my campaign 150 base, 50 disadvantage, and my players kept saying "That's a first level character?" I said no, that it was probably closer to seventh. They had a hard time grasping that for some reason.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

I was surprised, when I looked at KillerShrike's conversions list, to find that a level one character is effectively a very low point. I made the characters in my campaign 150 base, 50 disadvantage, and my players kept saying "That's a first level character?" I said no, that it was probably closer to seventh. They had a hard time grasping that for some reason.

Well, keep in mind that my charts are just my take. Its really all relative to everything else you set up.

 

I find that even 125 (50 Base and 75 max "personal" Disadvantages) point characters in the HERO System are still more capable than xD&D 1st level characaters. But the HERO System is a much more complex system, so a 125 point character is easily as _challenged_ as a 1st level xD&D character.

 

200 point characters are quite powerful and capable, unless you are comparing them to superheroes. If thats where you want to start your game there is nothing wrong with it, you just have to be prepared for the fact that your PCs will be much more capable than any "real" person and subsequently more difficult to challenge.

 

Its all personal preference....

 

Also, another point that is relevant is that 125 points is deceptive as I do Race packages in a non-standard fashion in that the Race Package disadvantages do not count against a characters starting Disadvantage limit of 75 points, and are thus in effect extra points. Thus humans actually start off at 150 points as their Race Package has 25 points of Disadvantages, and other races which have more Disadvantages also start off at higher points; sometimes this margin is extreme and significant, such as the Hieraxian Dwarf package which starts of at 245 points when its all said and done, but is heavily disadvantaged.

 

Its really all just preference. Whatever works and is fun is valid

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

I was surprised, when I looked at KillerShrike's conversions list, to find that a level one character is effectively a very low point. I made the characters in my campaign 150 base, 50 disadvantage, and my players kept saying "That's a first level character?" I said no, that it was probably closer to seventh. They had a hard time grasping that for some reason.

 

Why do they need to know their "level" anyway? HERO doesn't have levels... it isn't D&D. If they feel the need to know how relatively powerful their characters are, why not refer them to the Character Types Guidlines Table on HERO p. 15? That gives them a scale which makes sense in the context of HERO System rather than giving them a number which is part of the system mechanics of an entirely different system and therefore doesn't really make sense in HERO.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

Why do they need to know their "level" anyway? HERO doesn't have levels... it isn't D&D. If they feel the need to know how relatively powerful their characters are, why not refer them to the Character Types Guidlines Table on HERO p. 15? That gives them a scale which makes sense in the context of HERO System rather than giving them a number which is part of the system mechanics of an entirely different system and therefore doesn't really make sense in HERO.

As I said, I dont use a "Level" concept beyond a handy means of bringing characters and creatures into the HERO System from some other game that is level based.

 

However, the fact is some players are so indoctrinated into thinking in terms of Character Levels that they are not comfortable with any other means of comparison.

 

I've seen this in effect too many times to discount it. Player A is fussy about his characters abilities. What does Y points mean, etc etc etc. Finally, after trying to explain it to Player A, just say "Youre roughly equivalent to an X Level character in games system Z". They go "Ah. Ok, cool".

 

Rather than fight it, I just give that type of player a placebo, and as they become more familiar with the HERO System and comfortable with rating what their character can do, they'll give up that kind of thinking on their own.

[Vorvodoss]

Why do they need to know their "level" anyway? HERO doesn't have levels... it isn't D&D.

I agree. But I'm also bringing my players into this new system all at once with no gradual conversion and it's culturshocking them.

[Mark Taylor]

In reply to Killer Shrike and Vorvodoss, I've actually introduced D&D players to new systems (mostly GURPS and Call of Cthulhu, both of which lack classes or levels) many times, and I've generally taken the "this game is nothing like D&D" approach right from the start instead of the "this game is like D&D but with different rules" approach. I've found that it works... I'm not necessarily saying it's better, but I think that the reason a lot of D&D players moving to other systems have this problem is because they think of the new systems as a "different kind of D&D", and I've found that disillusioning them of that idea from the word go actually works. Then they're ready to learn a new system from scratch instead of trying to relearn what they think they already know, and from my experience they tend to learn it quicker and with less confusion that way. If I need to make "power-level" type comparisons I tend to make real-world comparisons rather than referring to any other game system.

[Killer Shrike]

Right. What Im saying is that works with some players, and not with others. In the interests of considering the audience, I think a GM should be prepared to deal with both types of players. Thus I present the HERO System as it is. When I determine that a player just isnt getting it, I try to determine what their background and mindset is and then make allowances for what they are comfortable with.

 

I dont use Levels. I dont encourage their use, or recommend their use in the HERO System. I dont think about the HERO System in terms of Levels. The term does not get used in my game discussions, except when converting source material into the HERO System from a game that uses them.

 

However, when Im trying to migrate a potential new player into the HERO System, if they dont understand how to think of characters in terms of points rather than levels, I'll point them to a training wheel points to level chart (since Ive already got one sitting around for conversion purposes) before I write them off or have them walk because they arent feeling it.

 

YMMV, obviously. What Im saying is dont discount a tool just because you dont care to use it. I dont like using those annoying little hex wrenches, but they are useful for assembling IKEA furniture or working on late model Chevrolets....Every tool has its use and as long as its applied when its the right tool for the job, so much the better.....

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

What Im saying is dont discount a tool just because you dont care to use it.

 

Well I already said in the last post "I've found that it works... I'm not necessarily saying it's better" so I'm not discounting your method, just saying I haven't personally found it necessary and that the approach I take is different and I've found it to work, that's all.

 

I certainly don't ask players to walk because they're not getting it - I've just never had significant problems with players not getting it.

 

Actually in over 10 years of GMing I've only ever asked two players to leave my game, and on both occasions it was because their style of play was reducing the game to a farce and spoiling everybody else's enjoyment, and they refused to change it.

[Vorvodoss]

If I need to make "power-level" type comparisons I tend to make real-world comparisons rather than referring to any other game system.

I agree completely with this. One of my players totally understood the game from this perspective but I have one other player who is still focusing on levels. He has a lot of apprehension about the new system. I told him that as far as he should be concerned, the only one who needs to know the rules is the GM. Rules don't dictate how you play a character and since HERO lets us realize our character EXACTLY how we imagined them, it is easy to just roll the dice the GM tells you to, report the results and wait for the ruling.

 

I dont like using those annoying little hex wrenches, but they are useful for assembling IKEA furniture

Damn swedish furniture makers and their hex wrenches.

 

YMMV

what does this mean?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Realms of Chaos

Well I already said in the last post "I've found that it works... I'm not necessarily saying it's better" so I'm not discounting your method, just saying I haven't personally found it necessary and that the approach I take is different and I've found it to work, that's all.

 

I certainly don't ask players to walk because they're not getting it - I've just never had significant problems with players not getting it.

 

Actually in over 10 years of GMing I've only ever asked two players to leave my game, and on both occasions it was because their style of play was reducing the game to a farce and spoiling everybody else's enjoyment, and they refused to change it.

No worries; its no doubt bcs Ive spent a lot of time sucking people away from AD&D and D&D 3.x, and they can be a very indoctrinated lot at times.

 

Im not kidding; you can go blue in the face doing comparisons with some of them, and they look at you blankly, but say "your guy is roughly equivalent to a 7th level fighter with a lot of weapon specialization abilities and maybe a level or two of Rouge", and they are like "Ah!".

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

what does this mean?

YMMV means Your Mileage May Vary.

 

I personally consider each 25-30 points to be equal to 1 level in D&D. So a 150 point starting character is around a 5th-6th level character when they begin play.

[Mark Taylor]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Im not kidding; you can go blue in the face doing comparisons with some of them, and they look at you blankly, but say "your guy is roughly equivalent to a 7th level fighter with a lot of weapon specialization abilities and maybe a level or two of Rouge", and they are like "Ah!".

 

I'm glad I haven't had to resort to that as I like to start new players with a clean slate (if they did it once they can do it again) but I can see that some people could be stuck enough in a mindset that it becomes necessary.

 

My comment about asking two players to leave because of their style of play made me think about starting a new thread over in General Roleplaying. Hmmm.

[L. Marcus]

Originally posted by Vorvodoss

Damn swedish furniture makers and their hex wrenches.[/b]

I´ve never had any problems whatsoever with IKEA! What´s wrong with people?!

 

[Killer Shrike]

My wife works at IKEA (in HR). I have grown to hate that damn furniture

[L. Marcus]

How so?

[Vorvodoss]

IKEA is the work of the Devil. You see, "idel hands are the devil's playground" but it's a little known fact that the Devil really hates playgrounds so he invented IKEA to keep more people busy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Crafty Devil.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by L. Marcus

How so?

Eh. I think its shoddy and poorly constructed. Id rather spend some real money and get nice furniture that doesnt break if you look at it wrong.

[NuSoardGraphite]

A little "Cultureshock" never hurt anybody.

 

 

Much.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by NuSoardGraphite

A little "Cultureshock" never hurt anybody.

 

 

Much.

 

So, when are you coming back to San Diego? Ive heard you're a top quality HEROphile...