Colossus on 400 points

[Metaphysician]

OTOH, it would still be worth it to buy up alot of INT, because a whole lot of his skills would be INT-based.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

OTOH, it would still be worth it to buy up alot of INT, because a whole lot of his skills would be INT-based.

I noted that too. The original person was concerned that Batman would convert into the HERO System much smarter than Reed Richards because of the inflated scale of the DC Universe, and my point was that this wasnt necessarily true as "intelligence" doesnt equate to being able to do things that a really smart character can do -- that takes skills. INT is really much more about how perceptive one is in the HERO System for the vast majority of characters, and you can technically play a "genius" with a mere 10 INT if you chose -- because the real mark of the ability to apply INT in the system is via skills (and powers-as-super-skills in a supers campaign).

 

As a side note, and not to totally derail this thread with pointless comicbook character/NCM debates, but personally I think Batman should have NCM even if he has some stats above the maxima, as he is supposed to be a "normal human", ie sans superpowers, in the universe of the Flash and Superman. If he doesnt actually have NCM then it really just detracts from the character in my opinion.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

100% Agreement with all of the above except one thing:

 

When Colossus fought the Gladiator in the Dark Pheonix Saga, he was pre-powerup and still slowed the big mohawk fella down quite a bit. Gladiator IIRC was suprised at how strong the big C really was. Plus on numerous occasions he traded blows with the Juggernaught. So if he's a medium brick, he should be right on the cusp of edging into "major brick land" IMO.

 

Later, after the Marauder incident, he came back during the Fall of the Mutants bigger and stronger, but unable to change forms without more effort and some pain/discomfort IIRC. Later, after I quit collecting, but based upon 2nd hand info, Magneto did some shinanegans and the big C got even stronger.

 

Also, another part of the big C that often gets overlooked was his near-total immunity to Magic, beyond his physical resilience.

 

This is exactly why I've adopted the system for conversion that I have. Supers are getting "powered up", altered, losing/gaining powers, etc every few issues. At the end of the day, they still exist somewhere in the pecking order of their universe.

 

After all these power ups/power downs is Colossus stronger or weaker than the Hulk? Thor? Hercules? Wonderman? The Thing?

 

Is he one of the strongest characters in the Marvel universe or is he just one of the really strong ones? Or is his power level, while impressive in the league he plays in, just not all that amazing next to the real heavyweights? (Luke Cage fits this catagory pretty well)

It all comes down to pecking order. In the Champions U we have a nice, well defined set of stats for everyone. When we do conversions we have to comapare how a charater in their universe compares to their fellows.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Jhamin

This is exactly why I've adopted the system for conversion that I have. Supers are getting "powered up", altered, losing/gaining powers, etc every few issues. At the end of the day, they still exist somewhere in the pecking order of their universe.

 

After all these power ups/power downs is Colossus stronger or weaker than the Hulk? Thor? Hercules? Wonderman? The Thing?

 

Is he one of the strongest characters in the Marvel universe or is he just one of the really strong ones? Or is his power level, while impressive in the league he plays in, just not all that amazing next to the real heavyweights? (Luke Cage fits this catagory pretty well)

It all comes down to pecking order. In the Champions U we have a nice, well defined set of stats for everyone. When we do conversions we have to comapare how a charater in their universe compares to their fellows.

 

I understand what youre saying, and have used the same method before.

 

In this particular case, l would say that to judge the Marvel bricks, we should break them down into categories by their strength composited with their resilience rather than just strength alone. Maybe something like this:

 

Mega Weight (Thor, Hulk, Juggie)

Super Heavy Weight (Spiky Thing, Sasquatch, Abomination, Collossus)

Heavy Weight (Non Spiky Thing, Jefferies Box, Hercules, Rage when mad, Post-Liefeld Warpath, Rogue)

 

So Thor, Hulk, and Juggie are beyond tough and beyond strong; they balance out to top of the heap. Thor technically isnt really that tough as an Asgardian according to most official sources (not even a true immortal like the Olympians for some weird Marvel reason), but seems to absorb plenty of damage so lets ignore that detail.

 

Spiky Thing, Sasquatch, Abomination, Collossus are all almost as tough or almost as strong as the Mega Weights -- but not quite -- or are as strong or as tough, but not both. I put Spiky Thing and Collossus in this category because their "durability" slide bar is pretty high, though their STR isnt quite up to par with others in this category, I put Sasquatch in bcs despite his official stats he was often depicted doing major "high-BS-factor" things, and was pretty near unkillable IIRC. And the Abomination for obvious reasons.

 

Non Spiky Thing, Jefferies Box, Hercules, Rage when mad, Post-Liefeld Warpath, Rogue all have varying degrees of toughness and strength, with Rogue being on the low end of STR but practically invulnerable, and able to fly (and thus add some Move Thru damage in to level out her STR maybe), while Box while piloted by Jefferies could do some insane things, but was just made out of metal and thus could be broken (though Jeffereies could repair it pretty quickly), the Non-Spiky ever loving Thing is tough and strong, but not able to hang with the big dogs by anything short of sheer grit and a telephone pole, Hercules is as strong as Thor without the Belt of Strength, but nowhere near as tough apparantly as he was always getting beat up. Pre-Liefeld Warpath was a super-athlete with bullet proof skin like his brother and doing good to lift 10 tons, but after el-Pinhead & Bulging Thighs got ahold of him he consistently functioned as a major brick (and kept getting bigger too, bcs bricks should be big apparantly), and finally Rage, of New Warriors fame, was in the Thing STR range but not as tough IIRC, however when he "raged", much like the Hulk, he got tougher (or just ignored pain) and a bit stronger.

 

Looking at it for comparison caps,

Strongest: HULK

Toughest: Juggernaught

 

So if Hulk is set to 100 STR (maybe with some Extra STR only usable when Enraged), then Thor & Juggie should be near that but not quite.

 

And whatever Juggies defense work out, everyone else should be beneath that.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I understand what youre saying, and have used the same method before.

 

In this particular case, l would say that to judge the Marvel bricks, we should break them down into categories by their strength composited with their resilience rather than just strength alone. Maybe something like this:

 

Mega Weight (Thor, Hulk, Juggie)

Super Heavy Weight (Spiky Thing, Sasquatch, Abomination, Collossus)

Heavy Weight (Non Spiky Thing, Jefferies Box, Hercules, Rage when mad, Post-Liefeld Warpath, Rogue)

 

So Thor, Hulk, and Juggie are beyond tough and beyond strong; they balance out to top of the heap. Thor technically isnt really that tough as an Asgardian according to most official sources (not even a true immortal like the Olympians for some weird Marvel reason), but seems to absorb plenty of damage so lets ignore that detail.

 

Spiky Thing, Sasquatch, Abomination, Collossus are all almost as tough or almost as strong as the Mega Weights -- but not quite -- or are as strong or as tough, but not both. I put Spiky Thing and Collossus in this category because their "durability" slide bar is pretty high, though their STR isnt quite up to par with others in this category, I put Sasquatch in bcs despite his official stats he was often depicted doing major "high-BS-factor" things, and was pretty near unkillable IIRC. And the Abomination for obvious reasons.

 

Non Spiky Thing, Jefferies Box, Hercules, Rage when mad, Post-Liefeld Warpath, Rogue all have varying degrees of toughness and strength, with Rogue being on the low end of STR but practically invulnerable, and able to fly (and thus add some Move Thru damage in to level out her STR maybe), while Box while piloted by Jefferies could do some insane things, but was just made out of metal and thus could be broken (though Jeffereies could repair it pretty quickly), the Non-Spiky ever loving Thing is tough and strong, but not able to hang with the big dogs by anything short of sheer grit and a telephone pole, Hercules is as strong as Thor without the Belt of Strength, but nowhere near as tough apparantly as he was always getting beat up. Pre-Liefeld Warpath was a super-athlete with bullet proof skin like his brother and doing good to lift 10 tons, but after el-Pinhead & Bulging Thighs got ahold of him he consistently functioned as a major brick (and kept getting bigger too, bcs bricks should be big apparantly), and finally Rage, of New Warriors fame, was in the Thing STR range but not as tough IIRC, however when he "raged", much like the Hulk, he got tougher (or just ignored pain) and a bit stronger.

 

Looking at it for comparison caps,

Strongest: HULK

Toughest: Juggernaught

 

So if Hulk is set to 100 STR (maybe with some Extra STR only usable when Enraged), then Thor & Juggie should be near that but not quite.

 

And whatever Juggies defense work out, everyone else should be beneath that.

Hulk should start at 90 Str and top out at 150 Str (just to be disagreeable ) Thor is about 110-115 without OdinPower. Juggernaut should be about the same. Colossus from early 80s would be about an 80-85. If he's been strengthened by age and enhancement I'd put it at 95.

 

Superman is 125 and Captain Marvel really shouldn't be down at 100 like DC wants him to be. He's got the strength of Hercules and the Power of Zeus along with the stamina of Atlas - DC Benchmarks place the strength of a god at 26-28. 1 or more better than Superman. Seems like a 135 Str is in order. Still, Supes came first so let's make them even.

 

Spiderman is a 45 Str. Captain America is a 30 Str. Batman is about 20-25 on strength.

 

The Marvel strengths are informed by the published conversion system from the old Adventurers Club. Whoever wrote that up recognized the inconsistency that was the "Marvel" ton and corrected for it.

[Agent X]

Oh, and Cyclops' blasts should be stronger when he maxes out than a punch from Colossus.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X

Hulk should start at 90 Str and top out at 150 Str (just to be disagreeable ) Thor is about 110-115 without OdinPower. Juggernaut should be about the same. Colossus from early 80s would be about an 80-85. If he's been strengthened by age and enhancement I'd put it at 95.

 

Superman is 125 and Captain Marvel really shouldn't be down at 100 like DC wants him to be. He's got the strength of Hercules and the Power of Zeus along with the stamina of Atlas - DC Benchmarks place the strength of a god at 26-28. 1 or more better than Superman. Seems like a 135 Str is in order. Still, Supes came first so let's make them even.

 

Spiderman is a 45 Str. Captain America is a 30 Str. Batman is about 20-25 on strength.

 

The Marvel strengths are informed by the published conversion system from the old Adventurers Club. Whoever wrote that up recognized the inconsistency that was the "Marvel" ton and corrected for it.

I suppose I can agree with all that -- except I dont know anything about the DC Benchmarks being a Marvel and Valiant reader when I collected.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Agent X

Hulk should start at 90 Str and top out at 150 Str (just to be disagreeable ) Thor is about 110-115 without OdinPower. Juggernaut should be about the same. Colossus from early 80s would be about an 80-85. If he's been strengthened by age and enhancement I'd put it at 95.

 

Superman is 125 and Captain Marvel really shouldn't be down at 100 like DC wants him to be. He's got the strength of Hercules and the Power of Zeus along with the stamina of Atlas - DC Benchmarks place the strength of a god at 26-28. 1 or more better than Superman. Seems like a 135 Str is in order. Still, Supes came first so let's make them even.

 

Spiderman is a 45 Str. Captain America is a 30 Str. Batman is about 20-25 on strength.

 

The Marvel strengths are informed by the published conversion system from the old Adventurers Club. Whoever wrote that up recognized the inconsistency that was the "Marvel" ton and corrected for it.

 

While I agree that alot of your numbers sound right, I don't agree that a X in MSH = Y in Hero type conversion. I also probably wouldn't use the numbers you have there in a straight champs game, even though the probably do reflect what these guys do in the comics.

 

I'm basing my conversion on the assumption that the strongest 3-4 guys in Champions can compete with the strongest 3-4 guys in Marvel. This is admittedly makes an assumption that you want to have a Marvel U that works on the same benchmarks as Champions. My first point was that Marvel, DC, and Champs are based on different campaign limits, so not making that assumption and using a different benchmark is perfectly acceptable but you have to acknowledge that you are doing so.

My methodology was inspired in part by the "universe crossover" series that have come out in the last 5 years where heroes from DC and Marvel go toe to toe. In those series, Batman and Cap go toe to toe and are almost totally evenly matched even though the both have comics that might imply different levels of ability. Why? Because they are both "at the limit of human" and their similar Iconic functions imply they ought to be about even. This is also why Thor and Supes can throw down even if Superman's feats of Str are always more stupendous than Thors. They have similar "Iconic Strong Guy" roles.

 

If you go with that system of conversion, then a "Thor in the Champs U" method should ignore the fine points of his stats in other systems or what he lifted in issues xxx, and just focus on who he should be able to armwrestle to a standstil. By that logic Thor ought to have around a 90-100 not because of his abilities in the comics, but because that's what Ripper and Grond have, and he should be about even with them. (Mjolner's +to HA would up his damage, but his Str is still in the same league)

 

By the same token, if Ripper took on the Fantastic Four in a MSH game, he should have Uneartly Str when powered up, regardless of what his Champs stats ought to convert to.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Jhamin

While I agree that alot of your numbers sound right, I don't agree that a X in MSH = Y in Hero type conversion. I also probably wouldn't use the numbers you have there in a straight champs game, even though the probably do reflect what these guys do in the comics.

 

I'm basing my conversion on the assumption that the strongest 3-4 guys in Champions can compete with the strongest 3-4 guys in Marvel. This is admittedly makes an assumption that you want to have a Marvel U that works on the same benchmarks as Champions. My first point was that Marvel, DC, and Champs are based on different campaign limits, so not making that assumption and using a different benchmark is perfectly acceptable but you have to acknowledge that you are doing so.

My methodology was inspired in part by the "universe crossover" series that have come out in the last 5 years where heroes from DC and Marvel go toe to toe. In those series, Batman and Cap go toe to toe and are almost totally evenly matched even though the both have comics that might imply different levels of ability. Why? Because they are both "at the limit of human" and their similar Iconic functions imply they ought to be about even. This is also why Thor and Supes can throw down even if Superman's feats of Str are always more stupendous than Thors. They have similar "Iconic Strong Guy" roles.

 

If you go with that system of conversion, then a "Thor in the Champs U" method should ignore the fine points of his stats in other systems or what he lifted in issues xxx, and just focus on who he should be able to armwrestle to a standstil. By that logic Thor ought to have around a 90-100 not because of his abilities in the comics, but because that's what Ripper and Grond have, and he should be about even with them. (Mjolner's +to HA would up his damage, but his Str is still in the same league)

 

By the same token, if Ripper took on the Fantastic Four in a MSH game, he should have Uneartly Str when powered up, regardless of what his Champs stats ought to convert to.

I think the numbers I use work along with the benchmarks in the Champions Genre book. I think the published heroes from DOJ are on the low end. Colossus can hang with the Thing for quite a while. They are very high powered supers. Thor is cosmically powerful.

 

By the Champions Genre Benchmark, you are downgrading Marvel Characters to fit in with what is more commonly seen in Champions Published stuff. That's fine. It wouldn't work for me.

 

Here is the other thing: Who are the 3-4 strongest guys in the Champions Universe? Are they already published? Gargantua has a 100 STR, Shurrak has a what strength?, Grond a 90 STR, Ripper goes up to what?

 

I'm thinking that Colossus running around with an 85-95 Str isn't really that big a deal in comparison.

 

And I'd rather have Thor, the Thing, and the guys be able to do what I see them do in comics. My theory is why use them if you have to change them? I would just use Marvel and DC characters in their own universes where I don't have to make them fit a "game" universe that is necessarily derivative and lacks the quality of Marvel or DC.

 

But everyone has a different style. To each his own.

[Metaphysician]

As a rough benchmark, I usually figure that class 60 in Marvel = 60 Strength in Champions. Anything lower, and you calc based on the lifting weight in tons. Anything higher, and you convert the class as a strength score.

 

As for Thor, I'd peg him at 100, but with bonuses available via Warrior Rage and the Belt of Strength.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

As a rough benchmark, I usually figure that class 60 in Marvel = 60 Strength in Champions. Anything lower, and you calc based on the lifting weight in tons. Anything higher, and you convert the class as a strength score.

 

As for Thor, I'd peg him at 100, but with bonuses available via Warrior Rage and the Belt of Strength.

 

I generally do the same thing. Makes conversion more consistent and you don't agonize over it. STR isn't usually the hard stat. I have way more trouble with DEX.

 

Rob

[Monolith]

As I've said in other posts, I use Marvel's STR Chart as only a "who's strong than who" guideline. What you need to do is establish baselines and then build from there.

 

I ped Hercules as 100 STR and Thor as 95 in my games. That's my top baseline. My bottom baseline is Heroes like the Beast at 35 STR or Spider-man at 45 STR. Then I follow the Marvel STR Chart from there.

 

Hercules

Thor

Wonderman

Thing

Submariner

non-Enraged Hulk

Colossus

ect.

 

If I peg the Thing at 80, and Colossus is substantially weaker than the Thing, then I need to put Colossus around 70. It doesn't matter what the Marvel or HERO STR Charts say because they were not designed to work together. As I have also said before, no one was more surprised than the Marvel writters when they produced the OHotMU and everyone saw how strong the heroes they had been writing were.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith

If I peg the Thing at 80, and Colossus is substantially weaker than the Thing, then I need to put Colossus around 70. It doesn't matter what the Marvel or HERO STR Charts say because they were not designed to work together. As I have also said before, no one was more surprised than the Marvel writters when they produced the OHotMU and everyone saw how strong the heroes they had been writing were.

I understand that you are just throwing out comparisons for sake of example, but IIRC Collossus is not substantially weaker than the Thing. They are in the same general STR range AFAIK.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

I understand that you are just throwing out comparisons for sake of example, but IIRC Collossus is not substantially weaker than the Thing. They are in the same general STR range AFAIK.

The last time I saw a copy of the OHotMU I believe Thing was listed 80-85 tons and Colossus was listed at 70 tons. Considering that your top number is around 100 tons a 10-15 ton range is substantial there, just as there would be a big difference between Joe Normal and Spider-man.

[Killer Shrike]

In the MSH Judges book Colossus is listed as having Monstrous STR, as does the Thing. Colossus has the better armor of the two.

 

In Children of the Atom Colossus is listed as having Monstrous STR.

 

In the XMen Roster Book he also is listed w/ MN STR.

 

In the whacky SAGA system the THING has 18B STR (which is one off from Thors 19B STR w/ Belt of STR and 17 w/o Belt of STR). Colossus has a mere 16 STR while armored and no armor at all apparantly -- looks likewhoever did the SAGA write ups was a FF fan

[Bengal]

I guess I can agree with the numbers people are thowing out there. Mostly. I still can't get over how much more raw power DC heroes have over either Marvel or Champions (the two latter are close enough to one another I think to call them compatible).

 

 

On the subject of DC to Champs, each AP added to a stat doubles the value of that stat- precisely what adding 5 STR does to lifting capacity. Because of this, I consider each AP like a "meta-damage-class".

If Superman has 20 APs of Super Breath (or whatever, I can't remember how many APs he has), that's like 7d6 EB PD, x1.5 KB, Continuous, or about 100 AP.

If Green Lantern has 18 APs of Willpower, that's like a 45 Ego.

If Batman is 1000x more perceptive than a normal human, then his PER rolls should be 31- (i.e. 11- base plus 60 AP in enhanced Perception).

[Killer Shrike]

Though STR's lifting capacity doubles every 5 points, there is no basis for comparison to determine that every 5 points = twice as good for any of the other characteristics.

 

A person w/ 15 INT is not twice as smart as a person w/ a 10 INT -- they just have a 1 better INT and PER roll, and the percentage difference of that will vary along the bell curve.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Bengal

I guess I can agree with the numbers people are thowing out there. Mostly. I still can't get over how much more raw power DC heroes have over either Marvel or Champions (the two latter are close enough to one another I think to call them compatible).

 

 

On the subject of DC to Champs, each AP added to a stat doubles the value of that stat- precisely what adding 5 STR does to lifting capacity. Because of this, I consider each AP like a "meta-damage-class".

If Superman has 20 APs of Super Breath (or whatever, I can't remember how many APs he has), that's like 7d6 EB PD, x1.5 KB, Continuous, or about 100 AP.

If Green Lantern has 18 APs of Willpower, that's like a 45 Ego.

If Batman is 1000x more perceptive than a normal human, then his PER rolls should be 31- (i.e. 11- base plus 60 AP in enhanced Perception).

 

Just be glad you haven't seen DC Heroes 1st Edition. Hal Jordan not only had 25 APs of WILL (which he kept in later editions), but he also had 20 APs of DEX.

 

The old Adventurers Club conversion converted each of the stats differently. DEX and INT converted at a rate of (STAT x 2.5 + 5) up until you reached 10 APs. For every AP over 10, you added one. Thus, Batman's 12 INT converted to a 32 Int in Champions. Superman's 15 DEX became a 35 Dex.

 

Post-Crisis Superman writeups gave him 14 APs of Superbreath (I believe), 15 APs of Heat Vision (5D6 RKA), and 25 APs of STR (125 Str). Yes, he's got more power than most heroes from Marvel, until you start comparing him to people like Gladiator, Thor, and Hyperion. Remember, according to the Marvel Super Heroes to Champions conversion system, Thor weighs in with about 100 Str, several dice in Hand Attack, and has 10 levels in HTH and 4 more with his hammer.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

The last time I saw a copy of the OHotMU I believe Thing was listed 80-85 tons and Colossus was listed at 70 tons. Considering that your top number is around 100 tons a 10-15 ton range is substantial there, just as there would be a big difference between Joe Normal and Spider-man.

I believe in the deluxe OHOTMU that they stated having a class 100 strength meant being able to lift anywhere from 100-200 tons. Of course, that's Marvel Tons which are much heavier than real tons.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Originally posted by Agent X

I believe in the deluxe OHOTMU that they stated having a class 100 strength meant being able to lift anywhere from 100-200 tons. Of course, that's Marvel Tons which are much heavier than real tons.

It was 100 to infinity if I recall correctly.

[Metaphysician]

I don't wanna even think about the level of HA thats on Mjolnir. I can easily see Thor cracking 30d6 with the hammer, *without* using levels. . .

[Gary]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

I don't wanna even think about the level of HA thats on Mjolnir. I can easily see Thor cracking 30d6 with the hammer, *without* using levels. . .

 

The funny thing is that even with the hammer, he fights people like Hercules and Absorbing Man merely to a standstill. If Thor and Hercules have basically the same str and the hammer provides lots of extra HA, then Thor would crush Herc every time with the hammer. That simply doesn't happen. The two of them are merely competitive, with Thor having a slight edge. I doubt very much that the hammer gives him more than 4d6 or so HA.

 

Of course the hammer provides a lot of other abilities...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

I don't wanna even think about the level of HA thats on Mjolnir. I can easily see Thor cracking 30d6 with the hammer, *without* using levels. . .

Keep in mind that using Levels does not increase Damage Classes in superhero games. In supers games each 2 Levels used increases the damage by either +3 STUN or +1 BODY.

[Killer Shrike]

CSLs converted to damage via Mjolnir would just help THOR get closer to the max damage his STR is capable of.

 

EDIT: Mon beat me to it

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary

The funny thing is that even with the hammer, he fights people like Hercules and Absorbing Man merely to a standstill. If Thor and Hercules have basically the same str and the hammer provides lots of extra HA, then Thor would crush Herc every time with the hammer. That simply doesn't happen. The two of them are merely competitive, with Thor having a slight edge. I doubt very much that the hammer gives him more than 4d6 or so HA.

I can remember when Hercules used to have a magic gold mace.

 

I think mjolnir does add more damage to Thor than what a club would. In my games Thor has a 95 STR and gets +10d6 from mjolnir. Having Thor do the same general damage as Dr. Destroyer does not seem unreasonable to me.

 

I'd also point out that comic characters, unlike game characters, generally do not go around using full-strength attacks. I doubt that both Thor or Superman seldom have a need to do more than 15d6 in their comics. In the game the players would be doing full-strength attacks with every hit.