The Case for Doctor Destroyer

[The Watcher]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

*Looks at his character sheet and notes he has "Casual Killer" as a Disadvantage*

 

Yup, he's evil all right.

[death tribble]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Oh and Mayday ?

 

Galactic Champions. Witchcraft uses magic to stop Tyrannon and sacrifices her life force. All superpowers start to fail after this time. This includes high tech armour etc etc.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

On hiatus, but I'm back. Will look at Firelord thread later, but at present I suspect most of you are glad that it's safely dead.

 

As for the question here... no, there is no question that Destroyer is evil.

 

Lord Dire, from 4e Champions of the North, is a good contrast and comparision.

 

Lord Dire's response to heroes interfering with his plans? Attempt negotiation first, fight second, fight w/ lethal force third.

 

Destroyer's response? Kill.

 

Lord Dire's attitude towards collateral damage -- wasteful, unnecessary, and wrong.

 

Destroyer's attitude towards collateral damage -- fun!

 

Lord Dire's response to an underling screwing up? Depending on how long they've served him, how loyally, and what the circumstances of the screw-up were, it ranges from "That's all right, these things happen." to "This was the error you made, do try to avoid it in the future.", to "You're an idiot. You're fired. Pick up your check and get out."

 

Destroyer's response? If you're going to be useful to him later, his repsonse /starts/ with something on the order of "Punish harshly and/or torture." If you are in any way replaceable w/o *extreme* effort, it's "Vaporize".

 

Lord Dire's response to an underling who hates herself and her transformed state? "But Harpy, you really are beautiful this way... downright stunning, in fact... you /still/ want to be human again? Your choice. I'll see what I can do."

 

Destroyer's response? Well, haven't seen it in canon, but I'd guess it would go something like this -- "How ironic that as a mutated monster, you are far more useful to me than you would have been as a woman. Your condition displeases you? After I wipe your puny intellect and memories, that will change..."

[Haerandir]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

My case for Dr. Destroyer is that he's our last line of defense against extraterrestrial/extradimensional conquest and other megalomaniacs. But he can do that in prison as well as roaming free, and is less likely to kill people I like there.

 

And don't get me started on Adrian Veight/Ozymandias. Give me Destroyer any day. I prefer a villain whose schemes actually have a chance of achieving his stated goals. There's a chance you can reason with him.

[Metaphysician]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

He *wouldn't* be our last line of defense against extradimensional foes if they would friggin' add some genuinely powerful heroes.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Yeah, it sounds like we need a new sourcebook -- "Paladins, Paragons, and Powerhouses". Detailing the superpowered heavy lifters on the side of *good*.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Yeah' date=' it sounds like we need a new sourcebook -- "Paladins, Paragons, and Powerhouses". Detailing the superpowered heavy lifters on the side of *good*.[/quote']

 

Some of those in the official CU are non-American, like Albion, Hyperion, Rashindar, Ushas and Celestar, so hopefully they'll be written up in Champions Worldwide. That won't come out for almost a year, unfortunately.

 

In the meantime, maybe those of us who play such characters should consider writing them up for submission to Digital Hero? At least there would be examples in circulation for other Champs gamers to use.

 

Company reps have always asserted that NPC hero compilations don't sell too well, so I doubt we can look forward to a book dedicated to that subject.

[Scott Destroyer]

Hello,

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

Sure it's a dictatorship, but a relatively benign one that doesn't have a lot of impact in the daily lives of the average citizen.

 

That's quite the breathtaking assumption given that the closest things you see to an "average citizen" are moisture farmers and criminal dregs at the fringes of the Outer Rim Territories. And the Empire's impact on them didn't seem particularly benign - smoking skeletons and a burnt-out farm on vague suspicions and the word of dodgy Jawas...

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

And while people died and planets were destroyed, they weren't simply random acts of destruction, but a "fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction".

 

Makes you wonder what movie the author was watching. Alderaan was destroyed for the sole purpose of demonstrating the ability and willingness of the Empire to annihilate populated, explicitly non-violent worlds on suspicion of non-military involvement with the Rebellion.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

The rebels, on the other hand, demonstrate no governing stratgey or plans for a post-Imperial universe

 

And because no screen time is burned up demonstrating such things, the Rebellion is obviously without them... At the very least, the Rebellion itself is explicitly an interstellar affair, and seems to have managed its affairs well enough to have maintained its existence for decades while facing a militarily superior Empire.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

and by destroying the one person uniting all the regional governors and organizing things (the Emperor), would "turn the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one".

 

Yeah, what a bummer compared with being under a universal warlord, dominated by the Dark Side of the Force, who is answerable to no one. The comparison with Somalia is particularly idiotic, given that Somalia is a small, harsh land that has never been free enough of its local thugs to develop true modern industry and economy, while the Rebellion has the resources of many solar systems to draw upon, no obvious long history of bloody rivalries among Rebel leaders, and sufficient industry to compete with Imperial starships in quality, if not quantity.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

He concludes by describing the rebels as "an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back".

 

Garbage in, garbage out. And the ridiculous assumptions on which this conclusion seems to be based certainly seem like garbage to me.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

It got me to thinking about the portrayal of Doctor Destroyer in the Champions Universe, and set me to wondering: would it really be so bad if the good Doctor succeeded and he DID rule the world?

 

Info on Destroyer's goals beyond world conquest seems a bit sketchy in his current-CU writeup. Even his rejuvenation hang-up seems more to seek more time for conquest than to be immortal for its own sake. I have little doubt that any who refused to acknowledge his conquest would be summarily exterminated; this would likely include many, many supervillains and criminal organizations whose absence would be a blessing. It would also likely include many superheroes, though the more law-abiding ones might obey surrender treaties signed by legitimate governments abdicating their powers to Destroyer. My own suspicion about his post-conquest activities, and the way I'd run him GM'ing in a campaign where he succeeded, would be this: unwilling to acknowledge any power superior to himself, he would start total military mobilization of Earth's entire economy and government, and go conquering in space, and among nearby dimensions, until he built up a force with which he thought he could challenge Istvatha V'han, Skarn, Tyrannon, and anyone else not under his rule.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

You'll note that Destroyer's agents have the Psych. Lim. "Loyal to Destroyer", not "fearful of Dr. Destroyer" -- they believe wholeheartedly in Destroyer's plans.

 

Loyalty of his robotic agents is hardly a surprise, and his human agents are mostly Javangari who literally believe he is a god. And the absence of agents without the loyalty disad does raise the question, "just what happens to those found insufficiently loyal to Destroyer?" I'm sure someone with the "Casual Killer" Psych Lim isn't just handing out pink slips...

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

And they're not just a random collection of whackos, but an organized army twenty thousand strong -- and it's intimated that thousands more would jump on the bandwagon once Zerstoiten got his foot in the geo-political door.

 

Twenty thousand strong, wow. That's one day's deaths for one combatant nation (the British) at the Battle of the Somme. It's about half the size of the New York City Police Department. In no way is it a world-conquering horde, unless the troops all have a few hundred Active Points worth of Duplication. It is Destroyer's strategic (i. e., city-killing) weapons, not his one-division "army", that keeps world leaders up at night. As to potential allies - well, any dictator with a few initial successes to brag on can attract some unprincipled suck-ups looking for an ally. The Mussolini-Hitler relationship comes to mind here. The smarter dictators have the sense not to put too much trust in such "allies", though.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

As far as whether Zerstoiten is actually "evil"....that's a little more open to debate. He's never once mentioned as being involved in any of the torture-masquerading-as-science conducted by Nazi scientists; and unlike a lot of current, past, and would-be dictators, Doctor Destroyer doesn't advocate genocide or slavery, or engage in random acts of terror.

 

"Open to debate"? If firing off a random (and inaccurate) list of evil acts Destroyer allegedly isn't involved in, while literally ignoring aggressive wars of conquest and casual murder, is the best the pro-Destroyer side can do, the debate will not be a long one.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

One could argue against his methods, but there have been plenty of times where bloodshed and destruction were necessary evils that had to be endured in order to arrive at a greater good (the world wars that brought about a lasting peace in Europe, the Cold War paranoia that led to the fall of the Soviet Union and the chance for a better life for those formerly oppressed peoples, and so on.)

 

Bloodshed and destruction are never so much "necessary evils" as "inevitable evils". And it is arrogant and unprincipled mindsets like Destroyer's, present throughout human history and unlikely to vanish anytime soon, that make them inevitable.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

There have also been a fair number of people who have slapped the label "insane" on Doctor Destroyer. But there, you run into a problem sort of like with Adrian Viedt in "Watchmen": when you're talking about (arguably) the smartest person in the world, who among us is *QUALIFIED* to judge whether or not he's insane?

 

Are you seriously arguing that high levels of any measurable form of "intelligence" will somehow make a person magically immune to "insanity" or any specific form of mental illness? It's the 21st century, dude; believe it or not, not every insane person fits the "drooling village idiot" stereotype.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

He doesn't seem at all delusional, save for his conviction that he is the strongest and smartest person on Earth and therefore it is his right to rule humanity; but like the man says, "If you can do it, it ain't braggin'."

 

Darn those itty bitty details. And so far, he AIN'T "done it", just gotten a lot of people killed failing over and over to "do it".

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

I know Doctor Destroyer is supposedly to be a rotten-to-the-core baddie, the one guy in the Champions Universe you can point to and say, "This guy is irrefutably EVIL,"

 

The one guy except for Dark Seraph. And Takofanes now. And Mephistopheles himself, mentioned in The Mystic World. And the Kings of Edom. And Tyrannon. And Black Paladin. And Blowtorch, after the comments in CKC. And...

 

And at any rate, Destroyer is a blatant homage to Dr. Doom, who, though on balance evil, has never really been as one-dimensional as the caricature you describe.

 

Originally Posted by innominatus:

but when you consider Destroyer from Destroyer's point of view, things don't seem nearly as clear-cut (at least, in my never-to-be-humble opinion)...

 

You must learn, child, that what would be wrong for you or for any of the common people is not wrong in a great Queen such as I. The weight of the world is on our shoulders. We must be freed from all rules. Ours is a high and lonely destiny."

 

-- Jadis of Charn

 

Originally Posted by Kristopher:

He basically nuked Detroit in order to take an extended vacation. Whatever he might have to offer, he's irredeemably evil.

 

Evil, certainly; deep in a lifetime of betrayal and murder, even mass murder, doubtless. Unlikely to change, probably. Yet I would hesitate to describe him with an absolute term like "irredeemable", which would reduce him to the caricature described by innominatus. Should he see the evil of his ways, he would seem to have the strength of will to accept the harsh truth about his deeds, and the power and resources to potentially render service greater even than the evil he has inflicted on the world thus far in his life. It might make for an interesting story, anyway...

 

Originally Posted by Saitoh Hajime:

I mean, Ozymandias masterminds a scheme that kills half of New York city in order to save the world from itself - how is he different to Doctor Destroyer, seen from the perspective of what he's trying to achieve?

 

He is different only in scale. He is a mass murderer and the true villain of the Watchmen comic; really novel only in that his villainy is successful.

 

Originally Posted by Saitoh Hajime:

Do you think it's any consolation to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that the atomic bomb was dropped on them because they had the bad luck to be born into a country going through a phase of imperialist expansion? The exact kind of expansion that made Britain and other european countries so rich and powerful?

 

"Consolation"? The feelings of people in the target area are entirely irrelevant to the ethical and moral dilemmas that military establishments wrestled with in considering strategic bombing, wheter conventional or atomic. The only feelings the Pentagon were, or should have been, concerned with were those of the million or so American families that would have been getting "regret-to-inform-you" telegrams in each of Operation Olympic (invasion of Kyushu) and Operation Coronet (invasion of Honshu, Japan's main island). The two million Allied deaths reasonably estimated in these operations is at least an order of magnitude more than any sane estimate of losses in the two atomic bombings, even leaving the millions of likely Japanese deaths out of the equation. And comparing the deliberate policies of Japanese expansion to the occasional ugly incident of centuries of Western imperialism is disingenuous at best, though I've no doubt Destroyer himself would seek to confuse the issue with similar comparisons - as his old boss once said, "who now remembers the Armenians?".

 

Originally Posted by Saitoh Hajime:

What about the Afghani and Iraqi civilians who have died recently in American wars through no fault of their own? The US were ostensibly trying to achieve a higher moral goal and improve the world in both cases, and to do it they were and are willing to sacrifice innocent lives.

 

What about them? Here's what about them: they're dead. They are dead for being too near murderers, through, as you said, no fault of their own. The same can be said for bystanders killed in a police shootout in a gang-infested neighborhood, but no serious person suggests police forces should stop doing their jobs (though questions about the necessity and conduct of individual incidents should always be on the minds of those in charge of the police). As to "sacrificing innocent lives", those given authority under law to determine such matters have reached the conclusion that killing murderers, even at risk of some innocents (a risk which civilized militaries can and do take casualties of their own to avoid), will in the long run result in fewer lost innocent lives than knuckling under to them. Anyone who thinks those campaigns were launched on a lark, or for a profit, or as part of some messianic crusade, has been drinking the conspiracy-crank Kool-Aid.

 

Originally Posted by Vorsch:

Is Dr D still the son of a dollmaker, cos that the best bit of his 4ed writeup.

 

He is indeed, though they don't really seem to make that much of the fact in his CKC description.

 

Originally Posted by Tom McCarthy:

I think I really like the idea of a genius who wants to improve the world but keeps causing more problems than he fixes. That I can use.

 

Heck, that's pretty much any politician. Except most of them only think they're geniuses.

 

Originally Posted by Metaphysician:

He *wouldn't* be our last line of defense against extradimensional foes if they would friggin' add some genuinely powerful heroes.

 

Originally Posted by Chuckg:

Yeah, it sounds like we need a new sourcebook -- "Paladins, Paragons, and Powerhouses". Detailing the superpowered heavy lifters on the side of *good*.

 

Nooooooo......no, no, a thousand times no. No Elminsters in the CU!

 

And on a final note, I will say that the "benevolent" super-dictator story has been done before in the comics; Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme limited series of the late '80s is the best treatment of the subject I've yet seen.

 

Hope this helps!

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

> Nooooooo......no, no, a thousand times no. No Elminsters in the CU!

 

Fug Elminster, man, I'd just be happy if this planet had a viable equivalent to the Avengers.

[TheEmerged]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

RE: "Empire" Limited Series. Great potential. Lousy execution. It could have been a wonderful view into what a Doom/Destroyer run world might look like -- instead we had a bunch of scenes involving corpse manipulation, sexual torture, and underaged sex.

[Telos]

The Case for Istvatha V'han

 

If you want serve a Megalomaniac dictator, why not serve The Empress of a Billon Dimensions: Istvatha V’han?

 

She just wants to rule the Omniverse. She’ll give you tech and power and rid the world of hunger, poverty, joblessness and offer boundless new opportunities for her subjects. She doesn’t impose anything on her subject other then her rule itself.

 

PS: who ever came up with Istvatha V’han, I love you.

 

Telos

Guardian of Dimension * Istvatha V’han Fanboy

[nexus]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Istavatha V’han, the only choce for America in 2004.

 

Well, her or Monkey in a Fez.

[Agent X]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

There is NO case for Dr. Destroyer but there are plenty of cases against him.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Istvatha V'han

 

PS: who ever came up with Istvatha V’han, I love you.

 

As a /concept/, she's truly wonderful.

 

As an /opponent/ -- seriously, I wonder how the hell any superteam, or planet, is supposed to beat someone with millions and millions of *entire galaxies* under her direct command.

 

Even with her mass transfer limits, an even moderately imaginative application of her logistical resources should result in the vicious slaughter of any planet that opposes her, short of maybe Malva in its prime.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: The Case for Istvatha V'han

 

If you want serve a Megalomaniac dictator, why not serve The Empress of a Billon Dimensions: Istvatha V’han?

 

She just wants to rule the Omniverse. She’ll give you tech and power and rid the world of hunger, poverty, joblessness and offer boundless new opportunities for her subjects. She doesn’t impose anything on her subject other then her rule itself.

 

PS: who ever came up with Istvatha V’han, I love you.

 

Telos

Guardian of Dimension * Istvatha V’han Fanboy

 

How to mess with your characters: Have a group of "villains" trying to help establish Istvatha's beachhead on this world be from some incredibly poor and impovrished and corrupt third world nation that first world countries ignore (or worse, help keep in power) and believe Istvatha's promise seriously that she will give them fair and just rule.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Istvatha V'han

 

Seriously, if I were V'Han, I'd make my "beachhead" the far side of the moon. If not the surface of the uninhabited planet Alpha Centauri-B-IV.

 

And what I'd move through is just enough troops to guard my...

 

... robofac complexes.

 

The easiest way around a limitation of transferring only so much mass is to build on-site after you get there. And the best way to build troops on-site is "automation". Information is infinitely duplicable -- including those complexes of "information" known as "AI program cores".

 

And if she can move through a small invasion fleet just on her d-shifters, that's also enough of a manufacturing/shipbuilding complex to *create* a *large* one.

 

See 'Mechanon 3000'.

 

Leapfrog the heck out from there to some easy pushover conquests(*), and by the time it's time to hit the hard targets, she should have enough locally-raised troops to crush the Perseid Empire like a nut.

 

 

 

 

 

(*) 'And how does she know who's a pushover and who's not?' The answer to that question is 'People who do invasions without recon are idiots.'

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Istvatha V'han

 

There is another, alternate invasion scenario.

 

Granted that V'Han has nigh-infinite areas to recruit and raise resources from, but only a limited capability to transfer that mass to target, then she should obviously be moving only *the* most highly-trained and capable and powerful combat units she has. No puds. Everybody should be of a hand-picked elite, recruited from thousands and thousands of entire worlds. She could literally put together an entire army corps, every *private* of which was the champion soldier of his home planet... she has that many individual planets she rules to draw from!

 

Not to mention, where's the highest 'combat power to individual person' ratio to be found?

 

In the metahuman, of course.

 

... by all rights, a proper V'Han invasion force should be like the Shi'Ar Imperial Guard crossed with the wet dreams of a Kheran Warlord... not a bunch of guys who operate like 3rd world infantry puds with cheap lasers.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

I'll answer about Destroyer later but the person who wrote that article sounds like a complete idiot.

 

"I read an article not long ago called "The Case for the Empire"; in it, the author asserts that in the Star Wars series of movies, Emperor Palpatine and the Imperials really weren't such bad guys. Sure it's a dictatorship, but a relatively benign one that doesn't have a lot of impact in the daily lives of the average citizen."

 

Just ask about 5 billion people on Alderaan about the impact that the Empire had on their lives. Billions dead to test a weapon? Gimme a break. The DS was, pure and simple, a weapon to slay wantonly and hold systems in line with fear and terror. That's EVIL.

 

Indeed, the death star shows how much of an impact the Imperials had on the lives of the Empire's citizens. Otherwise, why create a weapon to keep systems in line with terror?

 

" And while people died and planets were destroyed, they weren't simply random acts of destruction,"

 

See above about killing billions to just test a weapon. Pretty random.

 

"but a "fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction". "

 

The only thing the rebels destroyed that I'm aware of were legitimate military targets.

 

"The rebels, on the other hand, demonstrate no governing stratgey or plans for a post-Imperial universe;"

 

Hmm... two hour movie that deals with action and the characters... Lucas probably didn't have time to outline how the new Senate and Chancelor would work. Let's see... poli-sci 101 or lightsaber duel? Decisions, decisions...

 

"and by destroying the one person uniting all the regional governors and organizing things (the Emperor), would "turn the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one". He concludes by describing the rebels as "an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back". "

 

As opposed to the Emperor starting a civil war to tear apart the Senate and Republic... you know the organizations uniting the people in a far more benevolent manner than the Empire did?

 

Sorry... I just don't like evil, even fictional evil, being rationalized.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Just to make life easier for myself... picking this apart bit by bit:

 

"There's no question that Albert Zerstoiten is one of the most brilliant scientific minds in the world, and his innovations have already benefitted his personal army greatly. The "Neutronic Sphere Induction Field" generator mentioned in the "Sancutary" section of "Classic Organizations" represents a clean, self-sustaining power source that could solve a lot of the world's energy and pollution problems. His developments in Dimensional Engineering (demonstrated in the sample powers list for his VPP) could eliminate all existing forms of transportation, further reducing environmental damage due to things like vehicular pollution, oil spills like the Exxon Valdez, and so on. And if he's mastered nanotechnology (as mentioned in the specs for his new armor), then nano-assemblers that could build nearly anything (complex electronics, foodstuffs, advanced medicines) out of nothing more than garbage and sunshine could turn Earth into a veritable Garden of Eden."

 

Personally, I think that you're exaggerating the bad doctor's science a bit, incredible though it is. Also, there is the comic book convention that super science doesn't impact greatly on the regular world. If you chose to ignore this, you also have to allow that some of these advances, or some lesser forms of it, should already be in circulation.

 

In addition, there is the assumption that Dr. D wants to share. His tech and its distribution exist to serve him and him alone. If anything, he would jealously guard his secrets as much as possible and likely control all other research to either prevent his powerbase from being undermined or steal it for its own use.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Consider that there is at least one territory that Destroyer already rules -- that hidden valley in India. So we have a miniature example available to see how Destroyer would act as a monarch.

 

... hmmm, he encourages them to worship him as a *god*, denies them science and modern educations, and believes that their rightful place is to grovel at his feet, mired in blind loyalty and fanatic superstition. *And* he expends their lives as casually as a minigun expends bullets.

 

... all things considered, I'd rather live in Latveria.

 

Or better yet, a civilized Western nation.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

"As to fears of oppression under the hand of Destroyer....again, there's no sign of any of that happening within the organization he currently runs (that is, his personal army). You'll note that Destroyer's agents have the Psych. Lim. "Loyal to Destroyer", not "fearful of Dr. Destroyer" -- they believe wholeheartedly in Destroyer's plans."

 

Not necessarily. You can have loyal minions due to generousity, conditioning, fear, or a combination thereof. We all know how he treats his minions too... just ask Mentalla who got mentally reamed by her older brother on Destroyer's say-so. I also beat dollars to donuts that anyone who fails the big D only does it once since they wind up dead afterward.

 

"And they're not just a random collection of whackos, but an organized army twenty thousand strong "

 

I don't have psych profiles but I question the sanity or morality of anyone who thinks it's a good idea to join up with an ex-Nazi who tries to subvert the entire world on a regular basis.

 

"-- and it's intimated that thousands more would jump on the bandwagon once Zerstoiten got his foot in the geo-political door. "

 

And millions joined the Nazi power when Hitler was in power. Everyone loves a winner guess.

 

"It's also mentioned in the writeups that Destroyer's metahuman operatives have been richly rewarded for their services, so there's every reason to believe that Destroyer's generosity for jobs well done would trickle down to the rank-and-file as well. "

 

I don't recall that at all.

 

"And in his own words (as transcribed from an interview from the published adventure "Day of the Destroyer", his goal is to "elevate the world to (Destroyer's) level", not subjugate humanity."

 

Right before he appears to kill the reporter. Turns out he ONLY tortured and brainwashed the guy into being a living deadman switch.

 

"As far as whether Zerstoiten is actually "evil"....that's a little more open to debate. He's never once mentioned as being involved in any of the torture-masquerading-as-science conducted by Nazi scientists;"

 

Naa.. he was too busy killing those scientist, and many tohers, for their secrets.

 

" and unlike a lot of current, past, and would-be dictators, Doctor Destroyer doesn't advocate genocide or slavery, or engage in random acts of terror. "

 

*cough* Attempted to kill 90% of the world's population in agony in Day of the Destroyer?

 

"Yes, he has killed; but in each case the deaths have been calculated strikes to advance his ultimate goal of ruling the world. "

 

As long as there's a goal, it's ok? "Naa man... I just shot the clerk and the two eyewitnesses for the 30 bucks in the register. It's all good."

 

"You could certainly argue that what Zerstoiten has done in the name of expediency runs roughshod over other people's rights to life and happiness. But consider the stakes: Destroyer is playing for the fate of the entire world! He's gotta live here, too; and he sees a bunch of stupid, self-indulgent fools running things into the ground while he (Destroyer) alone has the power to fix things! "

 

No, no, and HECK no! Destroyer does care about the world unless you believe in his silly spiel in DoD... the same one where he lied about killing people painlessly. If he wanted to fix things, he could try to do so peacefully. He doesn't. He tries to rule not to make the world a better place but because he thinks it's his due.

 

"One could argue against his methods, but there have been plenty of times where bloodshed and destruction were necessary evils that had to be endured in order to arrive at a greater good (the world wars that brought about a lasting peace in Europe, the Cold War paranoia that led to the fall of the Soviet Union and the chance for a better life for those formerly oppressed peoples, and so on.) "

 

Argueable to be honest. We need to wait centuries to see if peace remains in Europe though the conflict in the Balkans and Yugoslavia showed that wea can still and does break out. Also, the blood was shed in the cold war, mostly in third world countries, seemed to do little to really end the Cold War. Likely, it was more the will to fight Communism and bankrupting the Soviets, that did the deed.

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

re: fanatic loyalty -- well, fug, Osama bin Laden has some of the most fanatic followers in the entire damn planet, and Hamas and Hezbollah have most of the rest. You can't find anything much more loyal to the cause, to the goal, than a suicide bomber.

 

... but does this dedication, or their leaders' ability to raise such dedication, make them any less evil?

 

Fug no. Those guys are the cancer on the human species.

 

Conclusion -- charisma and loyalty are both value-neutral traits, as they can be used by and for both good and evil men and ends.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

"There have also been a fair number of people who have slapped the label "insane" on Doctor Destroyer. But there, you run into a problem sort of like with Adrian Viedt in "Watchmen": when you're talking about (arguably) the smartest person in the world, who among us is *QUALIFIED* to judge whether or not he's insane?"

 

Any good shrink. Sure, the guy was brillant but that doesn't preclude someone from evil or insanity. Adrian played God and killed millions of people in a scheme that may not even work (witness the ambigious ending of Watchmen and remember another doctor's words). Heck men just as brillant as Adrian have argued morality for centuries and we still don't have a clear-cut answer it seems.

 

" How do we know Doctor Destroyer *DOESN'T* have all the answers, and that we just are too narrow-minded or unimaginative to appreciate his insights? "

 

I dunno... kinda hard to focus on his solutions when you're dodging his latest deathray.

 

"What if all these years, all these costumed heroes have been doing is *PREVENTING* Zerstoiten from saving the world? He doesn't seem at all delusional, save for his conviction that he is the strongest and smartest person on Earth and therefore it is his right to rule humanity; but like the man says, "If you can do it, it ain't braggin'." "

 

Because he's never been about trying to save the world. It's never been mentioned except for his little speech that was belied by his horrific actions. A truly great man leads by example and service... showing all of us a way so much better that we feel that we need to follow him or her.

 

"and considered him as a more complicated character in a complicated world. Maybe in a parallel world/possible future timeline, where he succeeds in his plans? I know Doctor Destroyer is supposedly to be a rotten-to-the-core baddie, the one guy in the Champions Universe you can point to and say, "This guy is irrefutably EVIL," but when you consider Destroyer from Destroyer's point of view, things don't seem nearly as clear-cut (at least, in my never-to-be-humble opinion)..."

 

Hitler thought he was a nice guy... just rebuilding Germany on the backs and blood of the unworthies.

 

Nero thought he was pretty cool... what being a patron to the arts and all that.

 

Destroyer tries to kill 90% of the world, levels a city in revenge and go into hiding, kills people who annoys him, and murders those to get what he wants. He has NO motivation beyond ruling (not saving) a world because he thinks it's his due.

 

He's evil... case freaking closed.

[Powerhouse]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

"However, in a less black-and-white campaign along Watchmen lines, you could put the players in the position of uncovering a scheme of Dr Destroyer's and being in a position to prevent it, only to discover that the good it will do may outweigh the evil means Destroyer is using to achieve it."

 

There is a significance difference though. Paraphrasing Adrian:

 

"When I planned to do it? Honestly, do you think I am some Republic Serial villain who would explain his plans if there was the slightest chance that you could stop me? I *DID* it 15 minutes ago."

 

In Watchmen, it had already happened so the decision to stop it was moot. Rather it was... do we let all these deaths be for nothing by exposing Adrian but instead should we trying to find something redeeming from this holocaust?

[Chuckg]

Re: The Case for Doctor Destroyer

 

Just ask this guy a simple question:

 

"When Destroyer was going to kill 90% of the Earth to 'save' the planet, would you have volunteered to be one of that 90%?"