STR & CON Revisited...

[Dust Raven]

Personally, I don't think anything is wrong with the cost of STR and CON. Unbalanced, yes, but wrong no. I believe the Hero System was designed to simulate an action based fictional environment, in which characters are almost always tough, even if it's not their man thing, so getting a massive point break on those Characteristics that make you tough are just part of the system.

 

That said, not everybody wants to run that kinda game. Both STR and CON are effectively free when you start looking at the Figured Characteristics you get with them. Some players might want some other method for buying Charactersitics them. I believe the best method suggested is doing away with the Figured Characteristics, and have PD, ED, SPD, REC, END & STUN have a standard base value and cost.

 

With this in mind, I've been working on a new cost system that keeps the general cost of Characteristics as close to what it is now as possible. This basically means making a lot of Characteristics cheaper, so the extra you'll be spending on the "figured" Characteristics won't seem like a lot.

 

Here's what I've come up with:

 

CHAR Base Cost

STR 10 1

DEX 10 2

CON 10 1/2

BODY 10 1

INT 10 1

EGO 10 2

PRE 10 1

COM 10 1/2

PD 2 1

ED 2 1

SPD 2 10

REC 4 1

END 20 1/2

STUN 20 1

 

 

This makes characters like Energy Projectors and Mentalists only about 5-20 points more expensive, and Bricks and Martial Artists anywhere from 10-60 or more points more expensive.

 

What do you guys think? What else have you "NO FIGURED" "STR/CON TOO CHEAP" fanatics come up with?

[Javed]

Re: STR & CON Revisited...

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

(Snip explanation)

 

Here's what I've come up with:

 

CHAR Base Cost

STR 10 1

DEX 10 2

CON 10 1/2

BODY 10 1

INT 10 1

EGO 10 2

PRE 10 1

COM 10 1/2

PD 2 1

ED 2 1

SPD 2 10

REC 4 1

END 20 1/2

STUN 20 1

 

 

This makes characters like Energy Projectors and Mentalists only about 5-20 points more expensive, and Bricks and Martial Artists anywhere from 10-60 or more points more expensive.

 

What do you guys think? What else have you "NO FIGURED" "STR/CON TOO CHEAP" fanatics come up with?

 

Well, DEX and SPD are clearly spot on. The only figured stat that got adjusted was REC, but with the savings on CON that looks reasonable. STR still gives you extra leap and lift and throw capacity so that makes up for its lack of range.

 

Overall, it looks reasonable if that's the sort of game you want to run. Would this mean that Mental DEF would also not base at EGO/5?

 

I'd like to hear how it plays out before giving a final opinion of course, but overall, it looks workable.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Re: STR & CON Revisited...

 

Originally posted by Javed

Overall, it looks reasonable if that's the sort of game you want to run. Would this mean that Mental DEF would also not base at EGO/5?

 

I'd certainly remove the "free" MD if I went this direction. You can make a case for doing that anyway ("If you don't get free Power and Flash Defense, why should you get extra Mental Defense?"). Personally I long ago made MD a figured attribute and plan to keep doing so -- and if I were to make a system based on this concept (the "no such thing as figured" system) I'd have it on the main line still... At base 2 and 1 point per pip.

[Dust Raven]

Actually, I count Leap as a Figured Characteristic as well, so STR would no longer add to it. And Mental Defense wouldn't get any free points.

 

I figure that just the ability of lifting and applying STR constantly (as with a grab) is roughly equal to Ranged (which you can use to stay away from HTH attacks, attack from cover, etc.).

 

I was thinking of reducing the cost of STUN as well, but I figured that at less than a 1:1 cost, there would be too many characters with an unappropriate amount. Instead I made CON really cheap, as all it does is provide CON rolls and sets how much STUN you need to take after defenses to be Stunned.

 

I was actually hoping to find some players out there who'd be willing to play-test this to see how well it works (or doesnt') in actual character creation and game play. Any takers?

[Old Man]

Taking away the figured characteristics helps in Champions campaigns, but in heroic level campaigns STR still would be too cheap. There, STR determines how much damage you do and (to a lesser extent) how strong your defenses are. STR just needs to be 2/1 outright in heroic games, figured characteristics or not.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by Old Man

Taking away the figured characteristics helps in Champions campaigns, but in heroic level campaigns STR still would be too cheap. There, STR determines how much damage you do and (to a lesser extent) how strong your defenses are. STR just needs to be 2/1 outright in heroic games, figured characteristics or not.

 

Here I would have to dissagree. STR is perfectly balanced, mechanically wise, with most other damage dealing Powers, regardless of genre. It just so happens it's more common in fantasy. Rightly so, as everybody has it anyway, and those with more usually have an advantage over others without. It only seems too cheep because everybody starts with 10 points of it, which puts them half-way to the normal maximum.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Dust Raven

Here I would have to dissagree. STR is perfectly balanced, mechanically wise, with most other damage dealing Powers, regardless of genre. It just so happens it's more common in fantasy. Rightly so, as everybody has it anyway, and those with more usually have an advantage over others without. It only seems too cheep because everybody starts with 10 points of it, which puts them half-way to the normal maximum.

 

No, it's just flat out too cheap. It's so cheap that players routinely pay double to go over the normal maximum for STR because it's still a great deal at 2/1. The end result is that the system strongly encourages players to buy high STR for characters whose concept doesn't really fit it. At Str 10 a character can expect to do around 1d6+1K with a pointy handheld object. That goes up by about 1 DC per three points of STR. The only other mechanic that approaches this pts/DC ratio is martial arts, and not only is that not as efficient, it stacks on top of STR damage anyway--so martial artists, too, buy lots of STR.

[Dust Raven]

I've only played a few fantasy games using Hero, but that's never been the case with anyone I've played with. I've played quite a few D&D games, so I can definately understand the mentality of min-maxing the standard combat applications of a character. There's nothing wrong with that, just send the brute squade up against lots of things they can't defeat with strength and physical might, or that can take advantage of the things they couldn't buy because they spent so much on STR.

 

Besides, anyone who wants to buy any Characteristic over maximum should have a very good reason.

[Vorsch]

Strength should be 2pt/1 , there wouldnt be so much discussion if it wernt true.

 

1 Its usefull, multipurpose and cool

 

2 it give you more fig stas than you paid for it

 

3 Ha is defined as 5 str for 5pts with a-1/2 lim for damage only.

Which is ridiculous, i could have str+5 no fig for the same, and gain leaping, lift, throw and add to HKA as well.

or sell of the stun gained for 3pts, now str for damage cost 2.5 pts per 1d6 dam, and i gain Pd and rec

 

4 If it cost 2/1 would you still buy it, HELL yes.

 

5 Tk which is str at range +1/2effetively ,no fig-1/2 costs 7.5 per 5 points, why should be 1/1

[Dust Raven]

When you include Figured Characteristics, I would agree that STR could fairly cost 2/1 (you'd still be getting a good deal too, as 10 points of STR nets you 13 points of Figureds, indludiing Leap).

 

I still think it's fine as it is though, as long as you're playing a comic-book-like or similar action oriented cinematic-ish game. The rules are specifically designed for those kind of genres and the cost of STR and CON reflect that.

[Vorsch]

Str gains you its cost in figs

con also gains you its cost in figs

 

Con does not allow you to beat people to death, hence str should cost more.

 

simplistic but true

[PhilFleischmann]

I've come around somewhat on this topic. I used to be dead set against raising the cost of STR (and CON). Because in Champions, Bricks become almost prohibitively expensive if STR costs 2/1.

 

Now what I think I'll do is leave the costs as-is for Champs (Superheroic) and have STR cost 2/1 in Heroic genres, Fantasy Hero in particular.

 

One thought that convinced me is that no one ever sells back their STR. It's just too big a sacrifice for the paltry amount of points you get back. If STR is 2/1, it becomes more viable to play a "realistic" wizard who is physically frail because he's devoted his life to academic puruits rather than physical developement.

[AnotherSkip]

Ehhh, having played in a VERY long lived FH campaign I have to say that Str at 2/1 is too expensive unless you are a point munchkining monster. (or had a Str Power)

 

out of 20 75/75 characters built 5 had Str at 20, 7 at 13, 1 at 37 (through an EC ) 1 ranging from 13-37(22point VPP) 1 at 10, 1 at 15, 1 at 18, 1 at 23, 2 I don't know or cannot remember, but weren't exceptional. aside from the clumping at 20 and 13 the party was very diverse

 

I built the 23 pointer, a few of the 13's, the VPP, and watched most of the others being built. Combat effectiveness wise the 10 and 1/2 the 13eers were in the top 5. the 23er and the 20's had far too many points in basic stats to be effective. This was a Skill driven campaign, and chunking the points into stats just was not the best way to build a character.

Out of combat the low Str's really shined, 7+ more points into skills (most likely) raelly made a diference in the campaign.

 

The point is, most of the figured stats actually were something that the character would have bought up anyways AND are only good in combat. Even if half of the game is combat all of the abilites STR and CON generate as side effects are only good in combat so that makes them only half effective. Sure you _may_ be good in combat but it won't help you in a lot of situations. A campaign that want's to make the game less about STR needs to keep the combat down.

 

The other problem is that combat critters will buy up more than the stuff they get from figureds in order to be effective in combat. Sure you get a 'price break' but the other things you do suffer in the end. Grond is not exactly known for his social skills if you know what I mean....

 

 

Effectively they are "throwing Good points after bad".

 

Str is not the only way to play Champions it is designed that way.

[Dust Raven]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Now what I think I'll do is leave the costs as-is for Champs (Superheroic) and have STR cost 2/1 in Heroic genres, Fantasy Hero in particular.

 

I would suggest dropping Figured Characteristics in Heroic games such as Fantasy Hero, rather than increasng the cost of STR. Increasing the cost unbalances STR versus Powers that only deal damage, such as EB and RKA. It's easier just to take away those things you'd get for free.

[Farkling]

Raising the cost of STR in Fantasy HERO makes spells more "expensive" in th eabstract. After all, a solid "Conan" type character has his STR and little else, spells being slightly higher in "effective" cost is a fair balance for the specific archers and sword slingers.

 

The sword slingers don't pay anything but gold for their equipment, improving their combat capabilities at no "actual" cost. His only worry in encumbrance, and the high STR helps offset that.

 

The magely type buys EB's and RKA's with his hard earned character points, but doesn't have the encumbrance limitations on his damage dealing equipment. It's built in.

 

What's the big problem?

maybe the encumbrance rules are broken...not STR.