CSLs

[t-bear]

Question on Combat Skill Levels.

 

 

Let's say I buy the 3 point cost for all combat skills with, say, Martial Arts. Could I throw the skill level into DCV when I use the martial manuever? Or could I only have it in DCV if I'm being *attacked* by a Martial Manuver? I think it's the latter...but having a little trouble rubbing the sleep from my brain.

[ghost-angel]

You assign skills levels on your phase, so you would put them in DCV on your turn, so you put the CSLs into DCV or OCV when you use your martial maneuvers (or even if you don't use any offensive maneuvers that phase). Your DCV will continue to be increased by the CSLs until your next phase vs Hand to Hand combat regardless of what the enemy is attacking you with - it's assumed you will still continue to use Kung Fu (or whatever your MA is) to defend yourself even if it's not a specific maneuver.. DCV is a factor of your ability to dodge, block and duck in conjunction with their inability to aim properly.

 

On that note - if you used the CSL for OCV on your phase when you attacked they are NOT available for DCV until your next phase when you can reassign them.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

You assign skills levels on your phase, so you would put them in DCV on your turn, so you put the CSLs into DCV or OCV when you use your martial maneuvers (or even if you don't use any offensive maneuvers that phase). Your DCV will continue to be increased by the CSLs until your next phase vs Hand to Hand combat regardless of what the enemy is attacking you with - it's assumed you will still continue to use Kung Fu (or whatever your MA is) to defend yourself even if it's not a specific maneuver.. DCV is a factor of your ability to dodge, block and duck in conjunction with their inability to aim properly.

 

On that note - if you used the CSL for OCV on your phase when you attacked they are NOT available for DCV until your next phase when you can reassign them.

 

I would assume that you would actually have to use the maneuver, though. Otherwise, why would you bother to buy 5 point "all-DCV" levels? If you have Martial Strike and you want to put your SLs on DCV, you better Martial Strike something. I might make a special case-by-case judgement if the character was holding an action in order to Martial Strike something, since he's set up for it.

In any case, yes, as long as you have the maneuver and assign the skill levels to it at the beginning of your phase, the bonuses protect you against all HTH attacks until you re-assign them or perform a different action.

 

Keith "My imperial wisdom from on high" Curtis

[Kristopher]

I'd go with Ghost Angel on this.

[keithcurtis]

So if I have 15 points of SLs with Kung Fu, I can assign them to my DCV, even if I'm not using a martial maneuver? That doesn't make sense. Or am I misunderstanding you guys completely?

 

'Cause if I'm playing in your game, I'm going to buy 15 points of SLs with "punch" and just keep the +5 on my DCV all the time, whether or not I'm punching. Much better than buying +3 DCV for the same points.

 

Keith "???" Curtis

[bjbrown]

I think that since a 3-pt. skill level applies only to related maneuvers, a character would have to actually be using a maneuver taught in the style to gain the benefit of using the skill level (such as for DCV). Further, the UMA (pp. 113-4) clarifies that the 3-pt. combat skill levels cannot be used outside of the manuevers associated with the martial art, and suggest that martial artists are still better off buying 5-pt. levels than 3-pt. levels if they want to use those levels when not using a maneuver within their pre-defined martial art.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

So if I have 15 points of SLs with Kung Fu, I can assign them to my DCV, even if I'm not using a martial maneuver? That doesn't make sense. Or am I misunderstanding you guys completely?

 

'Cause if I'm playing in your game, I'm going to buy 15 points of SLs with "punch" and just keep the +5 on my DCV all the time, whether or not I'm punching. Much better than buying +3 DCV for the same points.

 

Keith "???" Curtis

 

Levels with a single maneuver are even cheaper, IIRC, and don't apply to DCV. The levels with Martial Arts would only apply to DCV as long as you're fighting H-to-H and could conceivably be using your martial arts. They don't apply at range and don't apply if you're, say, fighting in a blind rage.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Keith and bjbrown are correct; ghost-angel and Kristopher are incorrect. You can only apply 3-point CSLs to DCV in Phases where you actually use the maneuvers they apply to. From the FAQ:

Question: If a character has a 3-point Combat Skill Level with, say, Energy Blast, can he apply that CSL to his DCV on any Phase, or only Phases when he uses his EB?

Answer: A character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to. So, in the example given above, the CSL can only be assigned to DCV on Phases when the character uses his EB.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

Keith and bjbrown are correct; ghost-angel and Kristopher are incorrect. You can only apply 3-point CSLs do DCV in Phases where you actually use the maneuvers they apply to. From the FAQ:

 

Whereas I wouldn't allow CSLs for ranged attacks to be used for DCV in hand-to-hand combat.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Whereas I wouldn't allow CSLs for ranged attacks to be used for DCV in hand-to-hand combat.

And that's correct. Per the rules, 3-point CSLs can only be used for DCV against the same type of attack (HtH or Ranged) as the type of attack they're bought with. So 3-point CSLs with EB could apply to DCV against Ranged attacks, but not against HtH. And CSLs with a Martial Arts style could apply to DCV against HtH attacks, but not Ranged. This is right out of H5E, page 35.

[Kristopher]

Yeah. I'm not even sure I'd allow ranged CSLs to be used as DCV levels. I know this isn't canon, but it doesn't make much sense to me that being a good shot would make you harder to hit. **shrug**

[Elysea]

So if the consensus is that 3-point CSLs can only be used "actively," what about 5-point CSLs? If I have one 5-point CSL with Ranged combat and one 5-point CSL with HTH combat, can I put my 5-point HTH CSL into HTH DCV while I fire my EB?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Elysea

If I have one 5-point CSL with Ranged combat and one 5-point CSL with HTH combat, can I put my 5-point HTH CSL into HTH DCV while I fire my EB?

Yes, because a general HtH level is not with specific maneuvers.

[Sociotard]

here's an odd thought. What happens when someone pulls a sweep manuver? Then you could use a move you have CSLs for and another for which you don't. Things only get wierder if you have different CSLs for each thing you do.

[bjbrown]

There's a FAQ ruling (under Combat Skill Levels) that deals with using CSLs with a sweep. CSLs can only be applied to the Sweep, but not to any other manuevers used within the sweep. (So you can't use your CSLs with your martial art when doing a sweep of two martial strikes, for example.)

[ghost-angel]

Under Optional Rules for CSL p36 a character that has bought a CSL under the 8-pt level cannot apply CSL bought for ranged attacks to their DCV. So for those using the "better shot does not make you a better dodge" rules there you go.

 

As for what I said ... it did not mention not using the MA. I would assume that anyone in combat will use their MA and their CSL. One of the rules as I understood it was that you cannot assign CSLs outside of your phase. That being the case if you are in combat and are using a MA of some form you can take your 3pt CSL and place it in either OCV or DCV and they stay applied unitl your next phase when you can reassign theml.

 

The biggest difference I see to the 3 and 5 pt CSL is simply range of options... 3pt can be used for Karate while the 5pt can be used for Aikido, Karate and any other Melee (Hand-to-Hand fighting you can do).

 

The idea being that once outside your phase you don't suddenly stop moving like your a martial artist .. cinematically I'd assume you'd be doing blocks, and sweeps and other "Martial Art Type Things" to keep from being hit.. also you have Abort actions you can default to that do not allow you to reassign CSL becuase you abort only to that Action (Dodge for example).

 

Example: In your turn you will be performing an Offensive Strike, you have 4 CSL at the 3pt level for your MA. You assign 2 to OCV and 2 to DCV, so your final OCV bonus is +0 and final DCV bonus os +3... later you abort to a Martial Dodge which gives an additional +5, for a total of +8 DCV bonus (+1 from Offensive Strike, +2 from CSL, +5 from Martial Dodge). Or, if you do not Abort to a Martial Dodge but are simply attacked you still have a DCV bonus of +3...

Now:

If in your turn you perform an Offensive Strike, assign 2 of your 4 CSL to OCV but do *not* assign the other 2 of your 4 CSL then you do not get to later assign those 2 CSL to an Abort action if you take one, they are simply unused until your next phase.

Next:

Let's say you are closing in with an enemy, will reach them this Phase with a Full Move but have no actions left over to attack the enemy with, you decide to play it safe and take your 4 CSL and place them into DCV to simulate you are doing "dodging things" to prevent your attacker from smacking you with a Martial Maneuver... those DCV levels to nothing if the enemy decides to toss an EB into you since those DCV levels are for Martial Maneuvers, unless you Abort To a Martial Dodge, then you'd get a full +9 DCV because the CSL Levels were applied to a Martial Maneuver.

 

This is, at least, how we have always handled martial arts... the idea being that since you can't reassign or reuse CSL until your next phase but you want to keep some DCV levels around just in case you need to abort to a Martial Dodge (you can make the player declare that 3pt CSL delcared as DCV are "put into" Martial Dodge and only apply if the player aborts to that maneuver).

 

I realize my first post wasn't all that clear or as exhaustive as this post is, I was in a hurry this morning as I had to go buy lizard food.

 

either way a CSL at the 3pt level for a specific MA only applies if a maneuver from that MA is used, regardless of it's assignment to OCV or DCV. At the 5pt. level if the CSL is declared as HtH CSL then it applies no matter what (under the optional rule it applies only to HtH attacks made against the player).

[Dust Raven]

I was under the impression that you didn't have to actually attack with the maneuver you are using though. Sure you have to use it (use up and attack action), but you don't have to actually roll to hit anything. Besides, I know enough about martial arts, and hand to hand combat in general, to know that you can hold an "attacking pose" without actually attacking.

 

Originally posted by keithcurtis

So if I have 15 points of SLs with Kung Fu, I can assign them to my DCV, even if I'm not using a martial maneuver? That doesn't make sense. Or am I misunderstanding you guys completely?

 

'Cause if I'm playing in your game, I'm going to buy 15 points of SLs with "punch" and just keep the +5 on my DCV all the time, whether or not I'm punching. Much better than buying +3 DCV for the same points.

 

Keith "???" Curtis

 

Your +5 levels (say with, punch, grab and disarm) will only apply while using those maneuvers, and only versus hand to hand combat. If you were to do anything else, such as a move by or move through, you'd lose the bonus. Nor would it apply if attacked at range.

 

Your +3 DCV levels would apply at all times, including against ranged attacks.