Military NPC's and how to run them

[CorpCommander]

Here is my idea for simulating a military squad. What do you think?

 

Disadvantages on soldiers:

10 points; Shaken Morale : If under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes shaken and is 1/2 OCV (Frequently, Slightly Impairing)

 

15 points; Broken Morale: If Shaken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Broken and is 0 OCV (Frequently, Greatly Impairing) Is FREQUENTLY too strong?

 

20 points; Routed: If Broken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Routed and must move away from enemies and into total cover at Non-combat speed. If unable to find a safe path, character surrenders. (Frequently, Fully Impairing) Same question as above.

 

This allows NPC characters to be built on 45 points. Add the following modifiers to this:

Green Troops (still smell like the supply warehouse): -20

Trained Troops: -10

Experienced: -0

Veterans: +10

Grizzled Veterans: +20, but EGO maxes out at 10!

Elite: +20

 

A character with the skill PS:Leadership(INT based) can do things to improve morale. For example for a 1/2 Phase action they can boost an individuals morale that they can communicate with. If they make their roll the individual is at +1 on their EGO roll. for every 2 points the roll is made by they gain an additional +1 to the EGO roll. So, a Sergeant with PS:Leadership 14- who rolls 14 can boost one soldiers EGO roll by +1. If they roll a 7 then the boost goes to +4 (14, 12, 10, 8).

 

PS:Leadership can also be used to boost the entire squads morale (or at least those in the squad the leader can communicate with directly. 1/2 phase action. +1 to all squad members in communication if roll is made. Additional +1 for each 5 points the roll is made by.

 

To return a soldier to a normal morale state takes a rally check. This is also done with a PS:Leadership roll. This roll is modified as follows:

 

Shaken: -0

Broken: -3

Routed: -5

 

PS:Leadership can be complimented with KS:Military Science, KS:Military Lore and Legend, Persuasion or Intimidation!

 

Typical Trooper, F Company, 2nd Batt., 116th Inf. Reg., 29th Inf. Div

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
10	STR	0
10	DEX	0
10	CON	0
10	BODY	0
8	INT	-2
8	EGO	-4
10	PRE	0
10	COM	0
2	PD	0
2	ED	0
2	SPD	0
4	REC	0
20	END	0
20	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM02" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: -6

 

 

 

Cost	Skill
2	WF: Rifles, Thrown Grenades
6	Weaponsmith (Firearms) 13-
4	+2 with M1 Garand
7	Breakfall 13-
3	KS: U.S. Army 12-
7	Acrobatics 13-
3	Paramedics 11-
4	Navigation (Land) 12-
1	Tactics 8-
4	Survival 13-

Skills Cost: 41

 

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 35

 

Val	Disadvantages
10	Shaken Morale: If under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes shaken and is 1/2 OCV (Frequently, Slightly Impairing)
15	Broken Morale: If Shaken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Broken and is 0 OCV (Frequently, Greatly Impairing)
20	Routed: If Broken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Routed and must move away from enemies and into total cover at Non-combat speed. If unable to find a safe path, character surrenders. (Frequently, Fully Impairing)

Disadvantage Points: 45

 

Base Points: -10

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[Dust Raven]

Re: Military NPC's and how to run them

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Here is my idea for simulating a military squad. What do you think?

 

Disadvantages on soldiers:

10 points; Shaken Morale: If under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes shaken and is 1/2 OCV (Frequently, Slightly Impairing)

 

15 points; Broken Morale: If Shaken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Broken and is 0 OCV (Frequently, Greatly Impairing) Is FREQUENTLY too strong?

 

20 points; Routed: If Broken and under fire, test EGO, on fail character becomes Routed and must move away from enemies and into total cover at Non-combat speed. If unable to find a safe path, character surrenders. (Frequently, Fully Impairing) Same question as above.

 

 

I think 45 points for what is effectively a single Psych Limit is a bit much. The fact that each progression also covers the previous Disads screams of "double dipping." The Disad might could also be represented with a single Psych Lim: Easily Demoralized (frequently, greatly impairing) worth 15 points. Any sudden disadvantage in combat would cause an EGO roll, the worse the roll is failed, the more severe the reaction.

[ghost-angel]

I agree with Dust Raven here, this is one Psych Lim with varying degrees of severity dependent on situation.

 

I might make it a 20 pt Psych Lim depending on the campaign. Or possibly depending on the soldier, a green would have a 20 pt Psych Lim, a Vet a 15 pt, and a Seasoned Vet a 10 ot. Psych Lim - with actual reaction based on how much the EGO roll was made/missed by.

[CorpCommander]

Interesting ideas

 

I will rework this. What I want is the feel that I get when playing a historical miniatures game. I want the NPCs to act like they are figures in one of those games. In retrospect I see that one Psychlim with extended states will get what I want. I'll continue to work on it and repost.

 

Thanks

[Trebuchet]

Re: Interesting ideas

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

I will rework this. What I want is the feel that I get when playing a historical miniatures game. I want the NPCs to act like they are figures in one of those games.

Since HERO is a system designed to represent heroic fiction and movies and not a combat simulation, I fail to see the point to this exercise. This is not Squad Leader or Panzer Blitz.

 

In any case the effect you want is probably best represented by PRE attacks and varying levels of PRE/PRE Defense for your soldiers (Green might have 8 PRE, Veterans 15 and Elite 20 PRE). Since a number of factors can already reasonably provide bonuses or penalties to PRE attacks, that's a method that will already do what you want. After all, what is 0 OCV but "Frozen with Fear for Full Phase"? Fail the roll badly enough and you'll flee.

[ghost-angel]

PRE attacks have to be made in order for them to apply. In mass combat you can either take the "constant state of PRE attack" in place or you could simulate it like this. This isn't a bad construct and isn't reliant on a PRE being made by the enemy, it just is.

 

As for HERO not being a war game .. why not?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by ghost-angel

PRE attacks have to be made in order for them to apply. In mass combat you can either take the "constant state of PRE attack" in place or you could simulate it like this. This isn't a bad construct and isn't reliant on a PRE being made by the enemy, it just is.

 

As for HERO not being a war game .. why not?

Keep in mind that many military attacks are targetted as much at breaking the enemy's morale as at causing him actual physical harm. Historic examples include marching and fighting in tight formations, heavy cavalry charges, gas warfare, massed rocket bombardment such as Stalin's Organs, and the current US "Daisy Cutter" bombs. Warefare has always had a psychological element.

 

Hero is not designed as a wargame and would be a very poor one, just as I wouldn't try to roleplay using Waterloo 1815. Diffeents tasks; different tools.

[CorpCommander]

Re: Re: Interesting ideas

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I fail to see the point to this exercise.

 

Yeah? So who asked you? Get a life.

[BoneDaddy]

Your soldiers are a bunch of dirty cowards. This isn't the Army I would want fighting for my national safety or interests.

[Vondy]

Your "ego states" directly mimmic the three states of effect outlined for presence attacks (a zero phase action that you can have automatically occur with modifiers when your various battlefield criteria are mer).

 

Why not base it on presence instead of ego, especially since the game specifically uses presence in examples of immense intestinal fortitude? You don't need a lim to use or modify (and you would need to modify it some) an existing rule state.

 

For my games I've converted presence to stat contests, with the margin of success reflecting the level of effect. Good commanders have levels with presence skills and elite troops have various levels of resistance. You could also apply modifiers based on pre-set condition (lost 50% of your forces: thats a big -4! and for troops who probably have an 11- roll to start with... ouch).

 

You could simply state (house rule) that troops stay in their current level of presence effect unless they are rallied, or sent further down the chart by further failed rolls.

 

I guess my thinking is - characters shouldn't get points for something that is true for everyone, especially when a tweakable mechanic exists to do what you want anyways.

 

Just my two cents.

[CorpCommander]

Presence

 

Von D-man,

that sounds fairly reasonable. The fact is that in real life when you get attacked you generally have an involentary reaction that you may or may not be able to control. In Heroic games the Hero has no issue with this but the NPC might so if yo are leading a squad of normals into combat then you have to deal with the fact that they aren't going to do everything you say.

 

The wording of the PRE Attack results on pg. 288 have more to do with being given commands by an attacker rather than just simply reacting to danger. What do you suggest the base Presence Attack dice be for, say, a pistol shot, an LMG burst? Characters of course never check when underfire - that's what they are there for.

 

How about for finding yourself under concentrated fire from many of those things at once?

 

It can add up to a lot of dice, I would think. If you have players running half squads of 5-6 NPC's this becomes way to much work for what I am trying to do: a one off situation where the party leads a platoon into combat.

 

I think it would be easier on the GM (me) to simply just have a few modifiers to an EGO roll. I agree with the above that what I am describing is one simple PsyLim and not three. It's worth about 20 points and represents a non-heroic/realistic reaction to danger.

 

Another advantage to have multiple rolls to totally break an NPC is to show the degredation of morale. I don't like one unlucky roll causing someone to go from normal to routed. Soldiers don't usually act like "Dr. Smith" from "Lost in Space"!

 

Oh one thing should be noted, the characters are not gaining access to these PsyLims - they are heroes.

 

Thanks for your comments D-Man, you've risen above the rather lame remarks of some of the others in here. Its odd, you don't usually see people making such juvinile remarks on the Hero boards, but I guess it happens every once in a while.

[Vondy]

CC -

 

Just some thoughts.

 

You don't have to restrict presence attacks to commands. You can also use them for battlefield events at GM option.

 

I don't do presence attacks as tons o' dice and the presence chart. I do them as presence (stat) contests. And I don't add dice. I just modify the die roll accordingly with plusses and minuses.

 

I also require mooks (not PCs and major baddies) presence rolls when major battle-field events occur, even if no one made a presence attack.

 

Ego also works as an alternative to presence (in fact, for resisting presence attacks its codified in the rules you can use your ego score if its higher).

 

I really don't think it merits a limitation, however. I'm not so much arguing as I am thinking out loud.

 

I think you could simply say a failed roll (ego or presence) results in state 1 (unless its a totally blown roll), and further failed rolls move them up the chart. I recommended presence because it already has a chart in existance (you just remove the +10/20/30 mechanic and replace it with your own).

 

One possibility is how much they make or blow their roll by.

 

So, for instance: a platoon of standard infantry (ego/pre roll 11-) comes face to face with a mammoth tank that's barreling down on them. Its imposing (-3), so they need an 8-.

 

The platoon rolls a 9. Its a blown roll, but not by much. They hit level one on the presence attack chart. Once they recover from their initial fright they break for cover in hopes of bringing their LAW into action.

 

The tank commander starts unloading on their fairly good cover (+2) with his .50 (+0) and the tank puts a shell into a nearby embankment, wounding or killing one of the platoon with shrapnel (-3, since they are outgunned). All hell has broken loose, they need to make another roll: 11 + 2 - 3 = 10-.

 

The platoon rolls a 12. Ouch. All hell has broken loose, people are screaming and being wounded or killed, and the platoon commander decides to rally his boys. They have moved to level 2 on the presence chart. The impressive young lieutenant decides to rally his troops.

 

LT makes a presence roll (lets say he's presence 15 because he's uber LT) to try to get his men back under control. Lets assume their level on the presence chart is his negative modifier (-2): so he needs a 10-. He decides he needs to do something boldly stupid to rally his men and stands up with the LAW, screams out his orders, and fires away. We give him a +3 for this impressive and violent action, so he needs a 13-.

 

He hits the tank, but not very well, and rolls a 13. He has succeeded in getting his men back down to level one on the presence chart (at least they can shoot back now). His men start shooting back, but the LT did not leverage the rules and use the snap shot manuever - the tank commander draws a bead on him and turns him into .50 paste (-3) while the tank fires another shell into their midst (-3). They are already on level 1 (-1) so they need an 11 - 7 = 4 or less.

 

They roll a 14! They have attained a critical failure and are completely routed.

 

If they had been seasoned troops I would have purchased some levels of resistance "seasoned combat veterans" for them.

[CorpCommander]

A lot to think about

 

V DM

You definitely have given me a lot to think about. I like your method because you are capturing the feel of what I am looking for. The players will feel more like heroes because their men will absolutely and directly require their leadership.

 

Perhaps a PRE roll that fails knocks the soldier back one level, with additional levels for each 4 points.

 

I like your ideas though!

[BoneDaddy]

You gave soldiers the disadvantage that could be best described as "cowardly." What sort of evaluation were you hoping for? All my old Army buddies in the infantry have all ETSed out of there years ago, and maybe I took it too personally, but really! Those disadvantages would apply better to librarians or spinster-aunts or cub-scout troops rather than trained soldiers.

 

You asked "What do you think?" of everyone, myself and Treb included. Von D-man did a much better job of getting to the heart of what you were after than I did, but what I think is stilll pretty well valid.

 

Did you consider a Physical Limitation of Weak Bladder?

Distinctive Featuress - Yellow Stripe?

 

I think the biggest problem I have is if I give an M-16 to a farmer, he'll fight more bravely than the shell-shocked troops you've created.

 

Just because I think you have a bad idea, it doesn't make my criticism lame. You want to see lame, make a loud noise the NPC barracks.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re: Re: Interesting ideas

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Yeah? So who asked you? Get a life.

CC, I don't really care if you want to individually design all 50 million combatants in World War Two using Hero. Waste your time any way you like. But you asked for input.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by BoneDaddy

You asked "What do you think?" of everyone, myself and Treb included. Von D-man did a much better job of getting to the heart of what you were after than I did, but what I think is stilll pretty well valid.

 

Yeah Bonedaddy, what you wrote was scintillating reading. You have already noted Von D-Man's extremely well written response. Now go back and compare it to the response you gave. It’s really low in content.

 

Treb's original remark was also not useful. So what if he wouldn't want to do this? I didn't ask him that and I didn't criticize him on the useful content he later provided. I see a lot of stuff that I don’t see the point of on these boards. I don’t go around to each post and reply with some disparaging remark.

 

As for your comments about your alleged military activity, we'll just have to take your word for it. As it applies to simulation I have seen too much data and read too many anecdotes and unit histories to think that men in battle aren't affected by the circumstances of combat. All I want to do is simulate that. You come off sounding like a braggart and worse since you haven't added anything of value to the discussion it appears you are a bandwidth waster. Are you smart enough to actually contribute usefully to the conversation? If so then why don’t you? I actually thought that you were 14 years old when I read your original remark. However, since you’ve posted to this thread and have shown an interest in it I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. Use your first hand knowledge of military training, whatever exercise or perhaps real life combat experience you’ve had, and come up with a realistic way to handle non-heroic NPC’s in the circumstances of being under fire. If you remain silent on this or just respond with more abuse then, well, I guess we will all know where you stand.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Treb's original remark was also not useful. So what if he wouldn't want to do this? I didn't ask him that and I didn't criticize him on the useful content he later provided. I see a lot of stuff that I don’t see the point of on these boards. I don’t go around to each post and reply with some disparaging remark.

CorpCommander, which part of "In any case the effect you want is probably best represented by PRE attacks and varying levels of PRE/PRE Defense for your soldiers (Green might have 8 PRE, Veterans 15 and Elite 20 PRE). Since a number of factors can already reasonably provide bonuses or penalties to PRE attacks, that's a method that will already do what you want. After all, what is 0 OCV but "Frozen with Fear for Full Phase"? Fail the roll badly enough and you'll flee" didn't you get?

 

I suggested you use PRE rather than EGO, the same solution the incomparable Von D-Man suggested at greater length. Apparently you're not swift enough to run with a good suggestion; you need it spelled out in nauseating detail. You may rest assured I won't waste more of my time suggesting anything to you in the future. I suspect BoneDaddy feels the same. Life is too short to waste time on boors.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

...the same solution the incomparable Von D-Man suggested at greater length...

 

I prefer ineffable, personally.

[BoneDaddy]

Since you've asked so nicely -

 

Historically, they don't scatter, cower or freeze. Group dynamics play a bigger role than incoming fire. They swarm up out of the trenches and head for the wire en-masse, getting cut down by enemy fire. They charge off of landing craft onto Omaha beach, and head for higher ground, while around them, people are getting blown to smithereens. They charge the beaches in countless islands in the South Pacific. They hold the line armed with fake guns made entirely of wood. They charge into battle with bulletts made of bamboo, with tin shell casings.

 

And that's without getting into genuinely heroic sacrifices.

 

Generally, they surrender when ordered to. If they froze, they'd just get shot and die. I guess a lot of them do, but I think that has more to do with intentionally being in harms way, rather than hiding in the foxhole.

 

I don't know that you need a game mechanic for this. if you want one, I think the Presence Attack is the mechanic you are after. A 155 round makes a presence attack all by itself, without anyone having to say a word.

 

I think better P-lims would include code of conduct, subject to orders, and unconcerned with own safety. The psychological conditioning that goes with being a soldier, in any army, involves eliminating the flight or freeze instinct where possible, and weeding out the candidates who aren't otherwise qualified (those who freeze or crack under fire.) That's why R. Lee Ermey and the rest of the Drill Instructors and Drill Sergeants of the world yell so darn much - It isn't just for yucks. It's actually the most important part of the training - they need to see who can't deal with psychological torment and sleep deprivation for months at a time, before they send them to the front.

 

Where I find your NPC concept lacking is that you've given them all PTSD, without any TS, and lowered their Ego to boot. You've created an Army of acrobatic ferrets - I don't intend that as abuse, I've given you enough of that I can see.

 

But while I'm on that topic, why 7 points worth of Acrobatics? Beyond a few dive rolls we didn't cover too much of that in basic training. I would think a CSL or two with the M-1 might be handy - we spent a lot of time at the range. Also, I think you can field strip and clean an M-1 without a weaponsmith skill. We spent a lot of time on basic squad infantry tactics, probably more than just a basic familiarity.

 

Thank you for just taking my word for it. I'm honored (edited because Trickstapriest asked.)

[TrickstaPriest]

Umm... if I may ask, can we cool down the argument a bit? Arguments are good when they involve trading a lot of info back and forth, even if it involves a lot of pain and upset, but the embittered side-comments don't help with it any.

[Captain Obvious]

Personally, I would use the mass combat rules from FH, and build up some house rules for those circumstances not quite covered in the fantasy genre.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Von D-Man

I prefer ineffable, personally.

I thought that went without saying.

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by BoneDaddy

But while I'm on that topic, why 7 points worth of Acrobatics? Beyond a few dive rolls we didn't cover too much of that in basic training. I would think a CSL or two with the M-1 might be handy - we spent a lot of time at the range. Also, I think you can field strip and clean an M-1 without a weaponsmith skill. We spent a lot of time on basic squad infantry tactics, probably more than just a basic familiarity.

 

I'd think you could get away with a lot by giving the soldier PS: Soldier, or possibly PS: US Army soldier (and dropping the KS: US Army). MY reasoning is that a lot of what a soldier learns comes under so many headings that trying to stat it out into separate skills would be a poor idea (as a grunt would be damn good at the things where he should be OK at best) and cost more points than it's really "worth". Drop the Acrobatics to a Familiarity (at best) and the Breakfall to a DEX/5+9; use the points to boost END or maybe add some to Running. Also, while in Boot I experienced something like the INT and EGO drain you show, I don't think that it stays forever; sooner or later you learn to compensate.