Superhumans pulling an Authority

[Lucius]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

That's the problem now isn't it? But because they say so and happen to be able ot shoot lightning out of their butts isn't good enough. To really mangle a quote "Extreme demands call for extreme proof"

 

And yet we know it's possible, because, as I understand it, what we're talking about is basically the co-operation states have from their citizens.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sings old Beatle's songs...."You say you want a revolution....."

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

And yet we know it's possible, because, as I understand it, what we're talking about is basically the co-operation states have from their citizens.

"

 

Democratic states garner support by framing themselves as answerable to their citizens. Hereditary monarchies invoke tradition and psychological inertia. Ideological states manage to convince a large enough fraction of their population that their ideology makes them morally superior. Military dictators and feudal overlords tend to take over during a period of such blatant chaos or at least mismanagement that even they look like an improvement. The last is the closest analogy. If the cities are in flames and gigantic monsters roam the landscape, offering a superhuman anything and everything he wants including a throne and a crown makes perfect sense if he can stop what's going on. At that point, moral superiority stops mattering and all that matters is effectiveness in restoring order.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

And yet we know it's possible, because, as I understand it, what we're talking about is basically the co-operation states have from their citizens.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary sings old Beatle's songs...."You say you want a revolution....."

 

There is a difference between a governing body accepted by (at least the majority of the people) and a small group of being saying "We have superpowers and cool outfits, bow down before us and put all you're right in our hands." The "Authority PCs" aren't elected, there isn't even the illusion of due process or checks and balances in the proposed system. Sure they could terrify the population into accepting them and their decrees and I suppose squash all resistance as they did anything more overt, but making people accept and respect their rule overall would take some doing. Basically you have to talk people into being slaves with a fairly long leash.

 

I proposed an alternative to just stepping and taking over earlier in the thread

 

Why don't these saviors use their cosmic power to institute some legitimate change that doesn't involve blowing stuff up? Create cheap' date=' efficient pollution free technologies and make them cheaply available, even free. Use their god like charisma, social acumen, perhaps even a nudge of mental powers to get themselves put into a position of power, or influence those that are. Set up their own "utopia" and lead by example instead of likely plunging the world into chaos and costing who knows how many lives in the process because they want it NOW, damnit and can comprehend the idea that they just might be as full of it as any current world government.[/quote']

 

I think it would work better at winning hearts and minds but needless to say my opinion is biased.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Why don't these saviours use their cosmic power to institute some legitamate change that doesn't invole blowing stuff up? Create cheap' date=' efficent pollution free technologies and make them cheaply available, even free. Use their god like charisma, social acumen, [/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure those guys wouldn't have god-like social acumen.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I'm pretty sure those guys wouldn't have god-like social acumen.

 

Why not? They had Godlike everything else.

 

But more seriously, they could easily have charisma and social acumen and apply that, it was an a example of how to contribute without just starting to blow things up and thumb their noses at the world. Or they could just actively try to make the world a better place and prove their intentions in less violent means first. It would at least make them seem allot less power tripping adolescents and more like benefactors.

 

The answer given way back in the thread was "That wouldn't make a very exciting game." (not by the OP IIRC) but personally, I can't see how the We crush everything that gets in our way and dismiss anything else from our position of obvious moral superiority would be exciting for that long either.

[csyphrett]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Super Intelligent Superhumans have been talked about in other threads. If all they had was their brains, and a support group with the right powers, there is very little they couldn't do.

 

Taking over a country and holding it against all comers is pretty stupid when you can wipe out cancer in a month of testing with a nanobot, or implanted healing factor. You could hold up pharmecuitcal companies for billions just trying to sell it fast enough.

 

Green industries becomes more practical with machinery that takes the trash and converts it to something else at half the current cost, even a quarter.

 

The big problem with any Authority world is what Oddhat, Megaplayboy, and others have said is the planet is an unrealistic dystopia ruled by corruption and even the heroes of the piece are more like Freedy Krueger than what is normally considered a real person.

CES

[David Blue]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Democratic states garner support by framing themselves as answerable to their citizens. Hereditary monarchies invoke tradition and psychological inertia. Ideological states manage to convince a large enough fraction of their population that their ideology makes them morally superior. Military dictators and feudal overlords tend to take over during a period of such blatant chaos or at least mismanagement that even they look like an improvement. The last is the closest analogy. If the cities are in flames and gigantic monsters roam the landscape' date=' offering a superhuman anything and everything he wants including a throne and a crown makes perfect sense if he can stop what's going on. At that point, moral superiority stops mattering and all that matters is effectiveness in restoring order.[/quote']

I think that's mostly true.

 

And I think that monarchy has more going for it than tradition and inertia, though inertia is an important reality, and tradition is a great thing. An ideally functioning monarchy mobilizes glamor, pomp and show to build good new traditions quickly, and make it seem like the rulers have been in power forever and are safe, natural facts of the world.

 

Very powerful superheroes with clear and reasonable ideas and the most common superpower (that is: looking great in a costume), would be ideally placed to set up ideal monarchies. They could do the world a lot of good that way.

 

Some of them, such as Wonder Woman, are also equipped to set up ideologically strong states, where people could have a powerful sense that they were part of a cause, and that the new laws were being brought in for reasons that could be explained - that would be explained, very persuasively.

 

Another thing that might help is actually writing out a social contract. That is, we the people agree to let Hawk-Guy be pharaoh, and rule as well as reign, and in return we expect the following benefits. (Insert security, economic and human rights benchmarks.)

 

If, in this scenario, Hawk-Guy, supported by the Global Justice Gang, didn't meet the benchmarks but insisted on remaining pharaoh anyway, it would be up to his team-mates to enforce the contract and tell him to go. If they didn't, obviously we are no longer talking about superheroes.

 

But let's assume the heroes fulfilled their contracts. Then: validation by results is highly persuasive.

 

So the power of a military strongman would only have to be the third and least support for the new regimes. On those terms, more through persuasion than force, the heroes could prosper.

 

Only they would need considerable restraint and wisdom, especially in resisting corruption by flatters and modern courtiers telling them whatever they wanted to hear.

 

And they'd need to refrain from imposing their rule on any country that wasn't in dire shape. Instead of making themselves world rulers, they'd need to start by acting like receivers of countries that were bankrupt.

 

After they proved in a country or three that the Amazon Way worked, or that Martian wisdom worked on Earth and with Earthlings too, and that to have a queen like Supergirl really does make your country more glamorous and entertaining, then the examples of these happy and prosperous new regimes could be highly influential throughout the world.

 

Bulldozing the governments and the cultures that are the world's main suppliers of charity is not the way to begin.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Super Intelligent Superhumans have been talked about in other threads. If all they had was their brains, and a support group with the right powers, there is very little they couldn't do.

 

Taking over a country and holding it against all comers is pretty stupid when you can wipe out cancer in a month of testing with a nanobot,

 

Except that then you are ignoring the limitations of their power. It's not like Reed Richards, Tony Stark and the Wizard do not sell the products of their respective genii. The world is already as good as it's gonna get based on their contributions.

[David Blue]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

And there are characters, such as Wonder Woman in the Justice League and Power Princess in the old Squadron Supreme, who come fully equipped with specific ideas on how to live the good life and how to order the world, and they are supposed to be following through on their ideas. More and cooler gadgets may not address all the ideological heroine's specific ideas on who should get what, why.

 

One reason I'm partly sympathetic with the original post is that it makes sense to me in role-playing terms. Giving it your best shot is exciting and heroic, even if it backfires. Believing you have the right answers but never giving it a go is unheroic.

[csyphrett]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I think that it has been shown that Reed Richards and Tony Stark keep a lot of their most advanced stuff to themselves. I think at one point when the Fantastic Four had left the planet, the government tried to seize most of his inventions left behind for its own use.

 

That seems to be in genre. Most super inventors keep their stuff out of the hands of others.

 

Now imagine the Engineer sitting down and offering designs for cleaner cars, or what not. How much would that change the world?

CES

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I think, in practice, a guy who could withstand a nuclear bomb, and who had the destructive power equivalent to same, could not be dictated to by the state. He could only be negotiated with.

So, at a level where supers can laugh off conventional military hardware(700+ points, I'd assume), and dish out tremendous firepower in various forms(hurricanes, cities covered in ice, city-block leveling energy blasts, etc.), this is not only a possibility but a real concern for state actors(i.e., governments and agencies affiliated therewith). If Doctor Destroyer had a half dozen like-minded pals anywhere near his power level, he could take over a major country like Brazil or Indonesia, and there's not a lot that could be done initially to stop them.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I think that it has been shown that Reed Richards and Tony Stark keep a lot of their most advanced stuff to themselves.

 

Their most advanced stuff is their most incomprehensible stuff. Stuff that is only slightly more advanced than the conventional state of the art would make more of a structural difference than Professor Omni's Pocket Universe Generator.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Their most advanced stuff is their most incomprehensible stuff. Stuff that is only slightly more advanced than the conventional state of the art would make more of a structural difference than Professor Omni's Pocket Universe Generator.

 

Well, yes and no. Pretty sure a non-polluting, thermodynamics-violating Zero Point Energy Reactor that could be used to power a city or a supercar would have a huge structural difference on society. Complete independence from fossil fuels, cheap abundant energy, cheap travel, etc.

[David Blue]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Cheaply made reverse engineered Ultimate Nullifiers would make a major structural difference to society, but if I was Reed Richards I wouldn't be putting those on the market.

 

Similarly, Doctor Strange doesn't want the world at large to know everything he knows, and with good reason.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well' date=' yes and no. Pretty sure a non-polluting, thermodynamics-violating Zero Point Energy Reactor that could be used to power a city or a supercar would have a huge structural difference on society. Complete independence from fossil fuels, cheap abundant energy, cheap travel, etc.[/quote']

 

Only if it was understandable and it wouldn't be for centuries...even assuming it really works rather than just being the expression of a superpower.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Only if it was understandable and it wouldn't be for centuries...even assuming it really works rather than just being the expression of a superpower.

 

Well, if it can be expressed mathematically and conceptually, then someone else could understand it.

I did have a character whose gadgets only worked because he believed they would.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, if it can be expressed mathematically and conceptually, then someone else could understand it.

 

Comic book universe. Assuming that other people who are not comic book geniuses could understand the math of a comic book genius is like assuming that any martial artist could throw a fireball if you just showed them how.

[David Blue]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well' date=' if it can be expressed mathematically and conceptually, then someone else could understand it.[/quote']

The solution need not be expressible mathematically and conceptually.

 

There are extreme long range (50+ moves) winning sequences that have been mapped out for some chess positions by computers that don't follow any algorithm. Nobody has any understanding of them, including the strongest players in the world, including a former top ten player who's done books of computer-checked simple endings and rendered his verdict on this. (John Nunn.)

 

As far as we can tell - and unfortunately we're the wrong species to render an ultimate verdict on this - you understand the whole thing, with every part fitting together (or rather you understand the one big complicated part in its totality) or you don't understand it at all. Human beings will never understand these winning sequences, because human beings don't have the memory to hold in attention at once the astronomical numbers of path branchings that would be needed to understand the solution. It's simply a fact that if you let a powerful enough and properly programmed computer take care of it, at the end of an absurdly long and almost entirely incomprehensible series of moves, the winning position will emerge. On the way, you will be able to notice things like a beginner does (oh he moved his rook out of take) but why he moved it there in the first place and why he moved it away to the particular square that he did - that you will never know.

 

I can see Reed Richards being like that as far as any ordinary human being is concerned. For some problems there is a known engineering solution. The solution is to ask Mr. Fantastic to build a machine that will do that. He will, and it will work. Why, you will never know. And in other cases, he will say, no that will never work, even though you think it should and he's just being balky. And in other cases again, he will say no, and don't ask me why.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well in some settings anyone could learn to throw a haudoken or whatever, but its usually similar to how "anyone" can be a championship athletic or a top notch physician in the real world. It takes dedication.

 

Neither assumption is any more innately correct. In the Marvel universe "supertech" seems to default to the it can be replicated model. Many things have been reverse engineered, copied and stolen, mass produced and even improved by others that weren't super* geniuses (and the original creators weren't ostensibly normal humans). The Aberrant universe is just the opposite for the most part. I think megaplayboy is thinking in terms of the former type of setting.

 

*in the sense of having superhuman powers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

I think in some comic book settings the upper limits on human capability are much higher. In DBZ, for example, humans can literally train themselves to superhuman levels of speed, strength and toughness. Its far from clear that any human being could do it, but in the series at least a dozen have managed to do so. Ditto for most "wire fu" movies and comics, people with a knack for it train extraordinarily hard and learn techniques that permit them to transcend ordinary human limitations.

 

Getting back to supergeniuses and supertech, one thing that becomes obvious is that anything we believe to be at least theoretically possible would be accomplished almost immediately, and probably quickly commercially implemented as well. It can understood, and it can be reproduced by non-hypercognitives. So that Mars lander can be built, that lunar colony can be built, that flying car can be built, that fusion power plant can be built, etc.

[David Blue]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Getting back to supergeniuses and supertech' date=' one thing that becomes obvious is that anything we believe to be at least theoretically possible would be accomplished almost immediately, and probably quickly commercially implemented as well. It can understood, and it can be reproduced by non-hypercognitives. So that Mars lander can be built, that lunar colony can be built, that flying car can be built, that fusion power plant can be built, etc.[/quote']

Broadly, I agree. So much can be copied and generalized that the exceptions almost don't matter. You might not be able to build your own Cosmic Cube, but you can certainly go ahead and colonize Titan, and that changes everything.

[input.jack]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Thread drift...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well, yeah, a bit. But the whole taking over the world and becoming planetary administrators thing seems like it would play itself out, roleplay-wise, in a matter of weeks or months. It would just get boring, unless there were constant challenges to the PCs' rule.

[nexus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Thread drift...

 

Fair call but honestly the original topic seemed to have largely played itself out years ago.

[Clonus]

Re: Superhumans pulling an Authority

 

Well' date=' yeah, a bit. But the whole taking over the world and becoming planetary administrators thing seems like it would play itself out, roleplay-wise, in a matter of weeks or months. It would just get boring, unless there were constant challenges to the PCs' rule.[/quote']

 

Well of course taking over the world doesn't mean the supervillains and superheroes go away and both sides are going to be opposed to you. In fact odds are good that the rulers would have have to delegate a lot of authority to civilian officials just because they spend so much time personally putting out fires.