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Superhumans pulling an Authority


Wanderer

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Pulling an Authority:

 

Let’s suppose an Iron Age, non-four-color setting, and a group of cosmic-level (JLA/Avengers) superhuman PCs with a vigilante/warrior mentality. Each of them is able to single-handedly withstand an attack from metahumans teams of lesser power, has enough offensive power to be a one-man army and enough defensive power to be wholly immune to mundane conventional weapons. They routinely engage in all the traditional (super)heroic feats like stopping natural disasters, fighting criminals, supervillains and terrorist organizations, performing humanitarian work, and they have saved many people. They restrain themselves from harming innocents and from killing decent opponents in cold blood (the characters will accept genuine surrender from redeemable opponents, won't fire on non-combatants, and won't make lethal booby-traps, etc.).

 

However, they are more than willing to kill, and have repeatedly killed, serious criminals (murderers, rapists, child molesters, those guilty of severe environmental damage, officials of dictatorial governments, and the like), be they recognized by the law as such or not, and have no qualms to use lethal force when it is the most congenial solution. In their publicly-known background, they would have already killed a relevant number of people (murderous supervillains or ones who used lethal force in combat against them, crime lords, executives of environmental-damaging corporations, people who ruined the lives of many others, notorious serious criminals, especially ones “who got away with itâ€, Third-World government officials with a really bad human rights record), with the corresponding criminal charges, and they would have deposed some dictatorial or violent regimes. They also would have otherwise flouted the law anytime they deemed it the right thing to do (e.g. shutting down polluting factories, destroying weapons of mass destruction and intervening in armed conflicts, freeing convicted people they judged did not deserve their sentences). Their code of conduct and modus operandi is widely known, as the fact they deem themselves above and beyond human laws, but would never willingly harm innocent civilians, or indiscriminately endanger public safety at large. They would fight law enforcement and the military if they are attacked, and would use proportional force. If governments would really escalate against them, they are ready to reciprocate (trying to keep civilian involvement to the absolute minimum, but anyone who knowingly uses or orders lethal force against them deserves what it gets).

 

What is the most likely scenario??

 

Would governments and law enforcement stubbornly try to press criminal charges and openly bring them down no matter what, with recourse to escalating force, which would be likely to develop into total war between major governments and the PCs ?

 

Or would authorities settle for a unrecognised limited conflict, still trying to defeat them (sending agents with super-technology or friendly super-teams against them, setting up ambushes, gathering as much info as possible, and trying to discover their weaknesses, and attempt an attack or capture only when far away from habitation), but restraining from attacking or harassing them if they show up in public and they are apparently peaceful??

 

In the former case, assuming they manage to consistently defeat all opposition, would governments of major nations be likely to eventually make a settlement and recognize the supers’ “above the law†status (giving them something like diplomatic immunity), or would they have to go all the way and overthrow civil government, and set up their rule??

 

If they would lose, and they are brought to trial, what would be the most likely outcome: lengthy jail sentence, life, forced government service, death?? They would have very strong immunities to aging and ordinary means of death (immunity to poison, age, high-level physical and energy, etc.) and cosmic-level ways of causing damage, so enforcing an ordinary jail, life, or death sentence is largely unpractical. What would be the most likely outcome?? Imprisonment into heavy sedation and/or “hot sleep†suspended animation?? And would it be with definite or indefinite duration?? Impressing some super as executioner?? Searching some super-technology way of executing them? Or would the government see them as too precious to kill or lock away, and try to recruit in forced service as super-soldiers or covert agents (using some technological gizmo, like the typical cortex bomb or slow super-poison, to keep them in line)??

 

In the latter case, what would be the law enforcement and public reaction to people who technically are fugitive criminals (vigilantes and/or (eco)terrorists), but are too powerful and dangerous to use ordinary police power against?? What would happen if they would stroll in a public place, or casually go shopping, or nightclubbing and trying to make a date, or appearing in a talk show or giving a press conference?

 

What would be the legal status of those who, say, dates them, or sells their merchandise, or otherwise deals with them in legal ways??

 

Under which conditions would authorities be willing to collaborate with such characters, and/or extend them an amnesty, given the typical “tough on crime†stance of modern politicians (some of the characters’ victims would have been influential or famous, like corporate executives or celebrities, or had ties with the government)? Aiding in a major natural disaster? Collaborating to defeat a world-threatening menace? Playing an important role in the war on terrorism?

 

And who would have the authority to grant them an amnesty, or extra-legal status?? E.g. what about one of the countries they have liberated from dictatorial governments giving them diplomatic status??

 

The characters are meant to behave like cosmic-level (anti)heroic vigilantes, much like the Authority, and exploring the consequences of their adversarial stance with mundane laws and authorities would be a welcome theme, but it’s useful to figure how a Superman-level group of vigilantes and environmental avengers would be likely to interact with a realistic society.

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My 2 cents

 

Well I would say that the government would not be likely to allow anyone to take the place of the justice system. Being judge, jury, and executioner has never set well with most of the people in the US. The "wild west" wasn't as wild as the movies make it and everyone was trying to bring civilization in that situation. I just don't see the government letting them get away with it. Yes they would be brought to trial and yes they would probably either end up in all out war or trying to be Benevolent dictators. I believe the Kingdom Come series in DC was something like that wasn't it?

 

Thats my perspective on it anyway.

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Sounds like the making of a really great campaign. I believe a realistic societal reaction would be as follows:

 

The common man will hate them. Maybe not at first, but inevitably. Man was not made to live amongst Gods, and these "Heroes" have set themselves up as Gods on Earth. No amount of good deeds can balance the ego shattering power they possess or the arrogance they display. Some of thier "good deeds" could even backfire, i.e. the "polluting company" they shut down could cost thousands of jobs (jobs for the little guy) and contribute to that year's economic recession (SP?).

 

The world governments might, at first, result to crude military action to stop them if they were unaware of the "Heroes" full capabilities. More than likely they would bide their time and gather intelligence. Comic Book B.S. aside, could these "Heroes" realistically keep a secret ID from the local PD, FBI, CIA, Interpol and other similar agencies? Do they have any weaknesses? What could the ruthless application of nerve gas, other chemical agents and poisons do to the group? Once their IDs are known the question is do they care for anyone? Once the world saw the stakes I don't believe any government would hesitate to use the "Heroes" family and loved ones as leverage. If the world governments act it won't be criminal trials, it will be mysterious deaths and "unfortunate" circumstances.

 

In short, the people of the world will not tolerate being openly ruled by a tiny cadre of super powered beings.

 

The one thing I didn't take into account is whether there is a serious enough "Supervillian" threat to unbalance these calculations. If so, then the governments of the world use their resources for possible control of the "Heroes".

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One of the best definitions of the word "government" that I ever heard was:

 

"That entity that has the sole authority within its jurisdiction to dictate exactly when, under what circumstances, and against whom the usage of force is allowable."

 

i.e. -- it doesn't matter how much good they do... if they set themselves up as the final arbiter, then what they have effectively done is said "We're the rulers of Earth -- we're just letting you keep handling the boring administrative details, but we'll overrule you at any time we feel like."

 

People who do that are usually called 'supervillains', and reacted to accordingly, however much else they do.

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Governments will not tolerate being "overruled."

 

They would probably try direct confrontation once, and having established it isn't the answer, start researching their opponents in the hopes that they could find a way of eliminating them with unconventional means.

 

If the heroes are not in a populated area I wouldn't put it past the use of a large nuclear device (just how invulnerable are they) - or something more insidious and low key if available. Are these heroes immune to e-bola or the aids virus?

 

In addition, the common man will likely have very mixed feelings about them, but when the chips are down they will want (especially in a democracy) to see them stopped because these "heroes" are violating the social contract, disrupting the maintenance of order, and undermining the principles of all men being equal under the law.

 

And that brings me to my next sunny point - traditional heroes will hate these guys guts. So much so that a coalition working in conjunction with the government (or more likely, many governments) is likely to rise in opposition to them (given time, of course).

 

And there will be villians who will consider the need to stop them as well - and might be willing to work with the real authorities (and traditional heroes) to bring them down. What if (using a CU example that might not be relevent to your game) Dr. Destroyer decides they need to be stepped on? What if he were to come to the government with a plan to take them on and down?

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Characters are assumed to have full Life Support, and enough resistant defenses to withstand anything but major nuclear weapons, or coordinated assaults from large superteams of equivalent power.

 

Finding strategies to counter the latter menaces, and protecting family and loved ones from the conflict would be excellent issues to explore in game. Even much so for withstanding alienation from the mainstream public which they originally started out to make a better world for. Even if I think they would still manage to develop at least a fringe or underground following.

 

But assuming they did manage to defeat the Shield, UNTIL, a posse from law-abiding superhumans, and dodge (or hopefully, prevent) nuclear strikes, storm whereever the U.S. President and aides that ordered the strikes are holed in, and blast them away. Then they go on live TV, and tell "We don't want war with mankind; we just punished the ones who ordered to attack us; stop harassing us, recognize we are beyond your laws, and the conflict will end". What would happen then??

Equality under the law is nice in principle, but would the public support going to all-out nuclear war just to keep some superhumans subject to the rule of law??

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Who said it had to be all out? If the heroes have a meeting place that isn't in a major population center they're a good target for a 10MT warhead.

 

One major device should be sufficient.

 

And no one is going to consider them the victims.

 

They break the law.

 

Law enforcement tries to stop them.

 

They break the law again.

 

Federal law enforcement, perhaps with super support tries to stop them.

 

They break the law yet again.

 

The military tries to stop them.

 

Its entirely likely, in an iron age game, that each stage involved a loss of life for the government.

 

Those dead cops and soldiers will be viewed as heroes and defenders of equality and freedom.

 

The media and the government pr machine will eat the "heroes" for lunch.

 

And there will be plenty of supers out there from both sides of the fence who will be willing to join the authorities in removing a potentially lethal personal threat.

 

Its just not realistic to assume a group of individuals will be able to pull this off in the long run without some sort of off planet base or a major power backing them.

 

At best the heroes could expect some sort of treaty, but that would likely just be a matter of buying time for the government.

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If they depose the President of the US, no matter how much they try to fig-leaf it as "We just punished the one who attacked us", then this nation is going to start loathing and hating them en masse. Even the ones who didn't vote for the guy. We are the United States of America, dammit -- we don't get invaded, we don't get conquered(*), and we *damn* sure don't get our sovereign government's shorts yanked down and spanked on worldwide TV by some would-be pop-culture metahuman dictators. It's just not accepted.

 

What's their response to 250+ million highly non-cooperative people? Write off the country? Demand respect and initiate large-scale massacres if they don't get it? Research global mind control?

 

 

 

 

 

(*) This is how many, if not most, Americans see the world -- nobody starts shit with us in our own house and retains the ability to walk without limping. Nobody. It's part of our pride.

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Originally posted by Von D-Man

Who said it had to be all out? If the heroes have a meeting place that isn't in a major population center they're a good target for a 10MT warhead.

 

One major device should be sufficient.

 

And no one is going to consider them the victims.

 

Not the victims, no. Just unpractical, unwise and not worth to pick a fight against

 

Those dead cops and soldiers will be viewed as heroes and defenders of equality and freedom.

 

The first wave, and the second and third wave, maybe. Then the military gets its ass repeteadly kicked. Again. And again. And the opponents restrain counterattacks on the military, and the government. And they keep stating that they are ready to make a settlement. Sooner or later, someone in the media, the public, or Congress is starting to wonder "do we really need to suffer all these losses just for the sake of enforcing a unworkable point. Equality under law is a wonderful principle, but can we really afford to risk the lives of all our soldiers in a fight we can't win, and we can honorably compromise".

 

Its just not realistic to assume a group of individuals will be able to pull this off in the long run without some sort of off planet base or a major power backing them.
.

 

So they have an off-world base, or a functional equivalent, like multiple subterranean bases. They are all cosmic-level, so it's not big a deal. OR they just use for meeting point warehouses in rotating multiple major cities.

 

At best the heroes could expect some sort of treaty, but that would likely just be a matter of buying time for the government.

 

Except that once the treaty is signed, and passing time amkes it the expected standard, it becomes politically harder to wage war again to overthrow it. As for all kinds of covert actions, sure. They are much of the crux of the issue for this kind of story.

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Originally posted by Chuckg

If they depose the President of the US, no matter how much they try to fig-leaf it as "We just punished the one who attacked us", then this nation is going to start loathing and hating them en masse. Even the ones who didn't vote for the guy. We are the United States of America, dammit -- we don't get invaded, we don't get conquered(*), and we *damn* sure don't get our sovereign government's shorts yanked down and spanked on worldwide TV by some would-be pop-culture metahuman dictators. It's just not accepted.

 

What's their response to 250+ million highly non-cooperative people? Write off the country? Demand respect and initiate large-scale massacres if they don't get it? Research global mind control?

 

 

 

 

 

(*) This is how many, if not most, Americans see the world -- nobody starts shit with us in our own house and retains the ability to walk without limping. Nobody. It's part of our pride.

 

 

Sure, that's a large part of your admirable (and sometimes not-so-admirable) heritage as a people. But the American people has also repeteadely shown the wisdom (and I hope will do again in the near future) to ultimately wake up from its self-righteous (or media-induced) war fevers and recognize it has picked up really unjust or unwise or unwinnable fights, suck the losses, pick up and accept a compromise when it's very survival was not at the stake.

 

Avenging a president slain in an act of war, or fighting to make an handful or a score of people answerable to criminal changes, that I deem it's kind of issue where the people would eventually find the wisdom to compromise after the initial bout of righteous war fury, as it becomes plain that the issue can't be easily won through force, no victory is in sight, losses mount, and the adversary is willing to compromise.

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Originally posted by assault

The characters you are describing are supervillains, pure and simple.

 

Hopefully some superheroes will come along and stomp them. :)

 

And hopefully, the nearsighted status quo bootlickers of corrupt politicians and grasping corporations you advocate will get their asses handed them over by the REAL heroes, who are willing to dare and sacrifice to build a better world. :D

 

Victorious rebels are called heroes; losing ones are branded criminals... ;)

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> Sure, that's a large part of your admirable (and sometimes

> not-so-admirable) heritage as a people. But the American

> people has also repeteadely shown the wisdom (and I hope

> will do again in the near future) to ultimately wake up from

> its self-righteous (or media-induced) war fevers and

> recognize it has picked up really unjust or unwise or

> unwinnable fights, suck the losses, pick up and accept a

> compromise when it's very survival was not at the stake.

 

If you're referring to contemporary political events, feel free to take it to the NGD board.

 

If you're referring to the superhumans of this scenario, then their true colors are now revealed -- they desire nothing less than to be the world's only superpower, and force all nations to bow to their will.

 

Congratulations, there is now a campaign involving the world's heroes fighting back against an oligarchy of totalitarian demigods with occasional delusions of benevolence.

 

> Avenging a president slain in an act of war, or fighting to

> make an handful or a score of people answerable to

> criminal changes, that I deem it's kind of issue where the

> people would eventually find the wisdom to compromise

> after the initial bout of righteous war fury, [snip]

 

I think you're missing an element here.

 

The US, my home nation, is the world's foremost superpower. As of the fall of the Soviet Union, we are the world's *only* superpower.

 

To submit to some group of metahumans dictating which policies are acceptable, which people are tolerable, and which head of state we shall select -- or un-select -- is to admit that we are no longer even a sovereign nation, much less the world's only superpower -- but a vassal kingdom of The Pantheon, as I shall refer to them for convenience's sake.

 

Never. In. A. Million. Years.

 

They would have to nuke cities, slay armies, kill mass #'s of people to finally beat us into submission -- and even then, you'd get covert rebellions and passive resistance. We're pretty good at that... we founded a nation that way, after all. :)

 

In order to finally beat the US into line, this Pantheon will have to use methods, and take enough human life, that they cannot possibly avoid falling clearly into the "supervillain" camp -- for that matter, without being the second coming of Doctor Destroyer.

 

> as it becomes plain that the issue can't be easily won

> through force, no victory is in sight, losses mount, and the

> adversary is willing to compromise.

 

What you have outlined above is not compromise, it's surrender. It's the same "compromise" that's found by bending over, dropping your trousers, and handing the other guy a jar of Vaseline.

 

Not this little black duck.

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> And hopefully, the nearsighted status quo bootlickers of

> corrupt politicians and grasping corporations you advocate

 

I was right -- this is not a "What-If" scenario, it's a political rant disguised as a game session.

 

Am I alone in thinking that the New World Order power fantasies belong more on the NGD board than here?

 

Dude, this story's been written in comics over and over again -- "Squadron Supreme", "Superman Rex", "Supreme Power", and, of course, the entire AUTHORITY title.

 

Most of the time, especially if it's not a regular series but a limited series, the point is quite emphatically made that the would be "god-kings" are *WRONG*.

 

"Squadron Supreme" put it best -- even granting that your absolute rulers are wise, kind, and benevolent... and miraculously continue to remain so over the long-term in the face of infinite opportunity for abuse and temptation...

 

... what the hell do you to guarantee a succession?

 

There is a reason monarchy is considered an obsolete form of government.

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Originally posted by Metaphysician

This sounds like the perfect world. . .

 

. . .to drop an equally powerful team of actual heroes, for the purpose of taking down these tyrants and showing the world what heroes are supposed to do.

 

And throw the world down the path to ruin again, as petty wars, environmental damage, crime, economic unbalances are allowed to run gain rampant in the absence of check from its metahuman defenders, evils that the so-called "heroes" are unable to properly address, in their clinging to a unpractical and shortsighted moral posturing.

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Well, you tipped your hand with that last post.

 

Very convenient that every so called 'Hero' has 'in concept' justifiable Total Life Support.

 

By your responses it seems you, as GM (I assume you're running the game, if not sorry) will do what is necessary to help you're players successfully conquer the world. Fine, give the players what they want. It does sound like you'll at least make it a challenge.

 

In some earlier post you claimed, in their defense, that you're players would at least have a small loyal following. Of course they would, so did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and other self- righteous mass murderers. Funny, most seem to agree that this campaign would, realistically, quickly deteriorate into a Supervillian campaign.

 

Since you seem so willing to believe that the Human Spirit would, and should, bow to the rule of a self-appointed elite, and that fighting for freedom from this little cadre of super-powered tyrants just isn't worth it then I must conclude you must be a liberal European. Ok, maybe you're a Canadian. Or maybe you're from some other decadent country that's well versed in appeasment.

 

Sorry guys, I'll never bring up politics first, but I will express my opinion when I disagree. And my apologies to the many fine people of Europe and Canada.

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Apparently, he hasn't yet twigged to the concept that the mental state of this "Pantheon" -- i.e., the unshakable conviction that they alone can determine and enforce true justice, and that all other beings are inherently doomed to lesser efforts and moral corruption not shared by their shining rectitude...

 

... is textbook megalomania.

 

It's every "New Order" fascist or communist dictator in history, all rolled into one package... forcing a Utopian vision upon the world, even if it means deposing heads of state, toppling governments, and mass killings. All Is Justified In The Name Of The Cause. And the only allowable "compromise" is to bend the knee and accept their Divinely Inspired Rule.

 

*bleargh*

 

I think I'll steer my campaign's DM to this thread -- so that he can eventually have our own JLA-style superteam, the New Sentinels, dimension-hop over to your world and boot some tyrannical heads.

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Coulda sworn I posted to this thread already. . .

 

The apt term for those who would decide to "cut losses" and "compromise" with these alleged "heroes" is "Vichy traitor bastards deserving of nothing less than incredibly brutal and painful demise for abandoning every last precept of liberty and human dignity."

 

As for these "heroes," they are just Doctor Destroyer with better PR. The appropriate response is the use of any number of nukes necessary to take down every last one of them. That is, if the genuinely-heroic individuals can't take them down first, as my own superteam will be busy doing when we inevitably encounter such a world.

 

Yes, if they live in a city, alot of people will die when the nukes hit. Not our moral problem, theirs, for using the people as human shields.

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Hey, don't forget, you're not the only Microverse character out there.

 

Have somebody like Shrinker, or using Dr. Collin's Miniaturization Ray, shrink the nukes down to platelet size and nano-infiltrate their skulls.

 

And *then* touch off the buckets of instant sunshine.

 

After doing the 'Fantastic Voyage' straight to their medulla oblongatas.

 

Nukes with zero collateral damage. God, I love super-hero tech. :D

 

PS -- With homage to Grant Morrison's "Rock Of Ages", and the death of alternate-future Darkseid.

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First off- Let's keep politics on the forums where thay belong.

 

Secondly- There is no justification for anyone to ever become a despot period. With the argument presented above we see the true colors of a GM doing all he can to find validity within his own beliefs. My suggestion? If a straw-man argument is all that you can find to support said beliefs then perhaps new ones are in order

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One of my primary non-political concerns is that given the rules of engagement in the first post -- i.e., no harming innocents -- then if an entire nation gives them the finger, they have only two choices:

 

a) suck their thumb

 

B) redefine innocent to include "anybody who does not bend the knee to us is not innocent"

 

 

The first prevents them from every truly being a Pantheon or an Authority, and the second is the path of the genocidal despot.

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Originally posted by TheRealVector

Very convenient that every so called 'Hero' has 'in concept' justifiable Total Life Support.

 

Characters are assumed by the scenario to be JLA-degree cosmic-level superbeings (REAL ones; no Batman or Green Arrow pretenders), with powers that make them a plausible opponent for the military of major superpowers. They may, or may not, each be among the most powerful supers ever in the setting. But a certain basic degree of proportional attack, defense, movement, special powers. etc. is assumed. Assuming Total Life Support among them is just practical, barring really contrary character concepts, and the vast majority of character concepts (e.g. energy-channeling cosmic powerhouses, archmages, semi-divine beings) at this level of power have it, or something similar.

 

By your responses it seems you, as GM (I assume you're running the game, if not sorry) will do what is necessary to help you're players successfully conquer the world. Fine, give the players what they want. It does sound like you'll at least make it a challenge.

 

Exploring the challenge is meant to be half the fun. The other half, is exploring how much pursuing proactive radical vigilantism can be undertaken while clinging to a basic code of morals. What it means to really assuming full responsibility for power, and the consequences of one's actions.

 

Funny, most seem to agree that this campaign would, realistically, quickly deteriorate into a Supervillian campaign.

 

Labels like "supervillain" matter nothing and have zero interest here. It is interesting to explore the full meaning of the "hero" (and anti-hero) concept in a classical, not comic code, sense. You may notice that I consistently avoid to use the term "superhero", unless absolutely necessary. These characters are meant to lack despicable traits like casual killing, selfish motivations, ack of honor or mercy. Yet they are are daring idealists willing to take higher justice and the greater good in their hands, and playing judge and jury on the global scene, because the responsibility of their power calls for it.

 

 

Since you seem so willing to believe that the Human Spirit would, and should, bow to the rule of a self-appointed elite, and that fighting for freedom from this little cadre of super-powered tyrants just isn't worth it then I must conclude you must be a liberal European. Ok, maybe you're a Canadian. Or maybe you're from some other decadent country that's well versed in appeasment. [/b]

 

Look at the other side of the issue. Those selfsame metahumans are fighting, and exercising their own freedom, to free mankind from wars, crime, environmental damage, unjust laws and authorities, as much as they can, as better as they can. Sometimes, different concepts of freedom must clash, and one has to lose, or a compromise is necessary. And sometimes, it is for the better that a vision of freedom must lose: a war was fought for the freedom to keep slaves, and for the sake of all mankind, was lost.

 

And since we are sliding to political, a "Higher Authority" metahuman willing to bully some unnamed politicos into pursuing the REAL criminals and keeping the global environment safe for future generations instead of wasting lives to protect the interests of tis corporate masters would be a real godsend, and a truer expression of the Human Spirit.

 

Far, far better to be a freedom-loving European than having deemed that a dumbwitted alcoholic puppet of corporate embezzlers and the religious Nazi, unfit to teach at high school, whose powertrips are being payed right now in European blood, would be fit to lead the world.

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IOW, you're using your game and your players to adolescent power-trip about [removing the anal virginity of] the US, in order to live out a political fantasy and make bad political jokes. Next to this, Garth Ennis looks like Chuck Dixon.

 

Jesus God. I'm almost tempted to go read the review of FATAL again so i can read a more mature outlook on life.

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