Superhumans pulling an Authority

[freakboy6117]

actually i think the most more dangerous super team in the wild storm universe is the wildcats.

 

they dont have the raw fire power of the authority or the long term strategic cunning (and anti superhuman agenda) of stormwatch.

 

with the halo corparations take over of major industries the cars computers electronics power.

 

introducing these supertechnologies to the masses. the social upheavel of this new technology is probably greaterand on a truly globally scale than the political change wrought by the authorities dictatorial activities.

[ChuckB]

It should be noted that most of the Authority stories were written by British writers , who kind of put their own perception of the U.S. within their stories.

 

I've found most of the stories entertaining , but there's always been a strong liberal/socialist bias within them and this is acknowledged by the writers.

[freakboy6117]

just be greatful you dont have to put up with the over simplification and caracatuire that is teh way american media tend to portary England lol .

 

gah if it was true we would all be cockenys who walked foggy cobbled streets rode red double deckers past red telephone boxes and post boxes and talked to police men who always say Evening all and Allo allo allo whats going on here then.

[lemming]

Originally posted by freakboy6117

just be greatful you dont have to put up with the over simplification and caracatuire that is teh way american media tend to portary England lol.

yea, like that's not done with the US.

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by freakboy6117

actually i think the most more dangerous super team in the wild storm universe is the wildcats.

 

they dont have the raw fire power of the authority or the long term strategic cunning (and anti superhuman agenda) of stormwatch.

 

with the halo corparations take over of major industries the cars computers electronics power.

 

introducing these supertechnologies to the masses. the social upheavel of this new technology is probably greaterand on a truly globally scale than the political change wrought by the authorities dictatorial activities.

 

Dangerous to the status quo, perhaps, but a far sight better a goal than what Wanderer is advocating.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by freakboy6117

gah if it was true we would all be cockenys who walked foggy cobbled streets rode red double deckers past red telephone boxes and post boxes and talked to police men who always say Evening all and Allo allo allo whats going on here then.

 

You know, the last time I checked, "Monty Python" had been made by a British production company.

 

(Likewise "Doctor Who", "Fawlty Towers", "Blackadder", "Mr. Bean", and most of the other reinforcers-of-stereotype that you're complaining about being on the American airwaves. We imported them all from /your/ airwaves.)

 

Getting back on-topic... well, on an RPG.Net forum discussing a similar thread -- for all I know, one started by the same person -- somebody named "Izzylobo" posted this:

 

Assassinate every last super-powered motherfucker who thinks it's their radiation-given mandate to rebuild society and the world in their own personal image of heaven, whatever it is.

 

Because inevitably that vision will be surrounded by the shattered dreams and freedoms of folks whose only sin was not believing that what was being created was, in fact, "A Finer World", and the smouldering corpses of those who would dare to defy the new Ubermenschen's schemes.

 

Fuck that shit. Better for a handful of super-powered pricks with delusions of grandeur and a vision of tomorrow to become bloody pulp and ash than for the world to end up a shattered asheap on the wreckage of their desires.

 

Here's to Santini and Team Achilles - he may be a bigoted prick, but he's right - super-powered fucks have no more right to rule the world than anyone else does.

 

-- 'Izzylobo', of the RPG.Net discussion forums

 

My reaction upon hearing this was "Got it in one."

[freakboy6117]

actually none of those shows are stereotypical there just english all these items exist there cultural objects.

stereotypical is reducing an a entire nation to a set of quick images

 

like reducing new york to the empire state building yellow cabs hotdog vendors steaming man holes and the statue of liberty, or LA to the hollywood sign manns chinese theater and the walk of fame.

 

watch the justice league episode with etrigan to see how cartoons and comics tend to depict london(and because its the only city in england in most comics the whole country).

 

or see how often a building other than big ben gets blown up in a movie when they want to show london under attack.

 

or find examples of scotland where ist not all cottages a loch/the ocean and a ruined castle.

 

it's part of the visual language of televison movies and comics though so there isn't much you can do about it.

[freakboy6117]

the problem with izzylobo's qoute is snatini is just as bad. his agenda is just as radical just as freedom crushing as the authorities (Didn't he assasinate a US senator and replace him with a shape shifter?).

 

you don't have to have super powers to want to remake the world in your image.

 

our world is made by people forcing there ideas on the masses

some times its good sometimes its bad but to asassinate every change maker to make the world safe for freedom would just leave us in a rut.

 

Is the president of the united states any less above the law than your average super hero? He can order deaths, destroy lives, ruin buisnesses even destroy the world should the need arrive. he can be made to answer for his crimes in office but very few do and none have ever been imprisoned.

 

I find my self wondering wether

Jack Hawksmoore could win an election as president with Jack Marlowe as VP. it's got to be a winning platform i can see the slogans

" how many times has (opponant) saved the world?"

 

"super technology for a super economy"

"you need super powers to run a super power"

 

"we would be one nation under god if i hadn't killed the ugly alien bugger"

[Metaphysician]

The President also has political restrictions on what he can do with those powers. If those restrictions aren't being circumvented or ignored, than even if you don't like what he's doing, it *is* legal.

 

Granted, said restrictions are probably a joke in the WSU, but thats because the WSU is massively divergent.

[Chuckg]

The President was elected, and can be un-elected. He has legal checks and balances on what he can do. Comparing him to the Authority is just... just...

 

My God, man, take a civics class.

[freakboy6117]

Most political leaders and thus most Presidents throught history( I woudl say all but there are probably a few who haven't) have in the past taken part in illegal/immoral activities. yes they do have restrictions on the use of there power but the point is they are protected from the conseqences of the miss use of there power by there office.

 

in the same way the authority is protected by the fact that there is no means to counteract their power a super power without rival will act in its own intreast and for it's own agenda even if that means defying the rule of law or morality .

 

In fact any power without approriate checks will act this way from traffic wardens/metermaids on up.

 

another intreasting question to pose

the authority have removed goverments from 5 nations

the three before the united states where some unnamed pacific rim bannana republic Tibet and Cechnya

 

suppose the Authority instead of simply imposing there belifes had worked as mercenaries that a rebel group within that nation had offered them a nominal fee to remove the current government would that make there actions all right?

[Metaphysician]

Depends, did the rebel group want to, and go about, establish a free and democratic government, or at least considerably freer than the preexisting government??

 

Also, I don't know what else you are thinking of, but presidentally ordered warfare, covert operations, and espionage *isn't illegal.*

[Chuckg]

There's a Victor Davis Hanson article about democracy vs. "demonocracy". I think some parts of it are relevant here.

 

"Demonocracy -- Beware of once-elected thugs", by Victor Davis Hanson

[Southern Cross]

Wasn't there a story in Groo where Groo was elected ruler of a country that had been ruled by a brutal dictatorship? He soon became a puppet of the merchants and was forced to resign.

Clearly therefore a government can only be democratic if the voters can force a

bad ruler out of power,which is what happened in Haiti.

And wasn't there a Popeye story where he became the benevolent dictator of some country? If memory serves,it didn't work out too well.

[freakboy6117]

well thats the point isn't it power makes what you or I would go to jail for legal.

[Chuckg]

It's illegal for you or I to bust into somebody's house and search their room. It's legal for the cops to do it, however, if they have a warrant.

 

It's illegal for you and I to go and shoot somebody. It's legal for the cops to do it, if they have probable cause and an immediate threat to human life is in progress.

 

And it's illegal for you or I to go launch a war on Ruritania -- but it'd be legal for the President to do it, if he gets Congress to vote for it.

 

The moral of the story is, it's legal for governments -- at all levels -- to do a lot of things that it's not legal for private citizens to do.

 

So what keeps all these governments, with all their power, from being tyrannies?

 

Simple. It's legal for us private citizens to change governments that we don't like via the democratic process.

 

Unless, of course, you live in some totalitarian hellhole.

 

Or are living under the "Utopia" of any would-be Authority.

[megaplayboy]

I think you'd see a "Legion of Master Villains" crop up secretly, and rapidly, in response to the deaths of a few such villains at the hands of the PCs. Their instincts for self-preservation, coupled with the perception of a common enemy, would compel them to work together to bring down the cosmic vigilantes. Villainous agencies might set aside their mutual hostilities and work together for the common evil

On the superheroic side, in a dark and gritty world, there might be a fair number of supers who'd initially support such an approach, until the body count started to mount, and some of their heroic comrades died in opposition. Then thy'd likely mobilize, also covertly, but on a huge scale(think 100+ supers and a dozen or more teams gathering strength, information, and training to defeat the PCs).

Governments and super-agencies would regroup and reorganize, trying to put together a plan to defeat the heroes.

 

In short, if they declare themselves above the law while dictating terms to the rest of the world, they will effectively be at war with everyone on the planet in a very short period of time, regardless of the nobility of their goals. They'd never have time to effectively achieve those goals, because every week they'd face adversity or resistance of one sort or another, eventually likely to culminate in some sort of superhuman Ragnarok(and the bloody, violent, inevitable and irrevocable demise of every single PC).

 

If they stopped short of becoming a de facto global dictatorship, they might be able to avoid such outcomes, so long as they took a more low key approach to "fixing" the world.

 

Skimmed through the Authority today( softcovers and current ish). Not bad, but noteworthy that it took them about 60+ issues to get around to taking over the United States, and that was after the corrupt President did some truly awful stuff. Have a feeling they will eventually be either:

a) deeply uncomfortable with being benevolent fascists

corrupted to some extent by their own dominance

c) brought down by other "posthumans" unhappy with their philosophy

d) all of the above

[Mayday]

Psst.

 

Use Mentalists to take them out.

[freakboy6117]

there are very few mentalist in teh wild storm universe mind control is possible but requires equipment so you need to have them at your mercy already.

 

the closest they get are ego blast and mental illusion. and low level emotion control.

[megaplayboy]

It seems like the Authority is certainly beatable--none of them are without weaknesses, both psychological and physical.

Eventually the editors will figure out where the plotline will inevitably lead, and will dictate the outcome to the writers.

____________________________________

 

case in point--there are at least two dozen supervillains in the CU operating at the "cosmic" level(i.e., over 700 points).

Even if a mega-hero team killed off a half dozen of them, and another half-dozen were too psychotic or narcissistic to team up, that'd still leave a dozen megavillains to ally with each other.

 

IN the CU there's an estimated 3000 supers. That's a pretty big pool of potential opposition.

 

______________________________

[Wanderer]

Well, unfortunately, in my country the publication of The Authority got truncated in the middle of the Seth story arc, so I'm still waiting to see how it further unfolds. Nonetheless, The Authority, Planetary, Watchmen, JLA's "Earth 2" mini-series, and the current Thor's Reigning story arc (which in my country is still in the middle of the Vortex story arc) are all major inspirations for our series. Probably this will sound like a blasphemy in some ears, but IMO The Authority and the Reigning Thor look so much more truly heroical than their four-color counterparts, as they are not afraid to address and do something about the REAL woes of the world...

 

>You are forcing your players to go into a mode of play where it's more "choose your own socilaistic, sociopathic, despotic, adventure" rather than allowing them to let morality be their guide which would in turn allow them an out in this situation. Why don't you allow the guys to walk a path of their own choosing.>>

 

Come on, this is just plain silly. It is obvious that all the group has mutually agreed to set up a story cycle where we'll explore the themes and ideas exposed in this thread, which we are all interested in. No one is "forcing" nobody. If the themes we have chosen to explore, and the course of action we have decided the group's PCs and GM-driven NPCs will follow, srikes anyone as "socialistic (please take note that not in all countries this label, much less liberal, is meant to be a mark of shame), sociopathic, despotic", too bad. We agreed that it mght be more interesting and fulfilling to explore what would really mean to fulfill responsibility to the world and mankind for godlike power, and that it would be more realistic and heroic to try and redress the real problems of the world, by revolutionary means if need be, instead of having characters act as the world's boyscouts.

 

>>Since you're the GM, in order for the campaign to be "challenging" not only from an RP perspective but from a gaming perspective, It has to be possible for the characters to lose, fail, and/or even die in pursuit of their cause.>>

 

Of course, one of the main purposes of this whole thread is to gather ideas about how properly set up challenges and opposition to the characters's endeavour, which plainly is extremely ambitious and challenging.

 

>>I have a hard time seeing how they could achieve their goals without effectively being at war with the major nations, agencies, heroes and villains in the world. If they knock off an oppressive government or megacorp by extralegal, undemocratic means, what guarantee do the successors have that they won't be knocked off in turn the moment they do something disagreeable to the group? In effect, they are going to be ruling the world, if they have veto power over the decisions of sovereign powers.>>

 

So you appear to agree that deem widespread resistance and all-out conflict is unavoidable, and the only possible outcome is utter defeat (with imprisonment, or more likely, death, and being reviled in memory as the consequence) or total victory.

 

We are going to set up characters and the setting so that they *may* be able to wage successful global war of conquest, if need be. But surely it should be an hellishly difficult thing. We'd prefer if the characters do not start with world conquest as the avowed goal, instead they would begin as determined radical activists for a series of interrelated noble goals like environmental protection, peacekeeping, crime repression, and if resistences mount, find, amid much soul-searching, that they have to escalate into beating the world governments into submission, and becoming the world's benevolent overseers, with the emerging goals of winning such a conflict with the minimum possible of casualties and damage, and setting up a system that is better for mankind and the world than the previous one.

 

We have discussed the points you made, and we realized that OOC, the story line would realistically include characters starting with their socio-political radical activism, but then facing increasing opposition from major governments of all the kinds you described (covert strikes, smear campaigns, threats vs. loved ones, loved ones and the public getting alienated with the characters, characters facing the temptation of "Hollywoood" rutting in fame and excess), slowly escalating to armed conflict (with government super-agents, team-ups of superhumans ideologically opposed to the group, the armed forces of superpowers). Eventually, if characters are successful they would have to take over the reins of powers from the governments they toppled, and try to steer the tottering boat of civilization.

 

IC, they would start as idealistic but radical activists, that confronted with increasing opposition and the outrage of seeing opponents used massive force against them, would harden and slowly realize the necessity of take power. The issue would then be to win efficiently without devolving in atrocity (as war so easily tempts to do), and the unpleasant task of seizeing power without being uttery corrupt by it.

 

Someone has suggested that we tone down vigilante crimefighting (or at least killing criminals unless really necessary or in the face of lethal force), among the group's aims, and we concentrate on more morally tenable aims like environmental protection, peacekeeping, and deposing dictators. This would still involve technically illegal, but more morally tenable methods, that would reduce loss of life and basic personal rights (like blowing up or forcibly stopping polluting operations). Only in the face of escalating pressure and use of lethal force from opposition, they would resort to lethal force (but never intentionally against civilians, even if some heart-wrenching "collateral loss" is likely), open war against governments, and taking over the reins of power.

 

And after taking (IF characters are successful) over??

 

Well, there are several possibilities. We'd rather prefer avoiding characters becoming Dr. Doom-like absolute dictators, ruling by whim. Besides, being terribly four-color cliche, it's unrealistic and would tilt the moral ambiguity of the characters too much toward villainity, unless the war had ruined civilization too much that iron-fisted dictatorship would be the only thing preventing chaos and sliding into barbarism.

 

Instead, we'd prefer the character setting themselves up as a kind of global guardians/supervisors, with the rights and responsiblities of sovereign nations and a kind of parallel Security Council, with veto and enforcing powers over the governments to garantee that the group's basic agenda is heeded, but not full political power.

 

Very roughly, it might be something like this:

 

The Group, to be known as the World Overseeing Council, will have full veto powers on the laws, international treaties, and single articles of laws and treaties, of all nations.

 

The WOC will have full pardon powers on all the civil and criminal violations in all nations, both individual and collective.

 

The WOC will have standing property rights on all land, air, sea, orbital space, and underground of the Earth. Free tenancy rights are garanteed to all existing proprietors, provided they fulfill the environmental, fair business and labour practices, and human rights guidelines of the WOC. Existing international treaties, or the most advanced national standard, will be used as the basis for the guidelines. Severe violations of these guidelines will cause tenancy to be revoked and reassigned on the basis of the best use project. Bona fide violators may be indemnified with funds from the Development and Conservation Fund.

 

A tax on all financial transactions will be paid to the WOC. The revenues will fund a Development and Conservation Fund, to be administered by a no-profit organization, to be expended for, among others: environmental reconstruction, no-interest bank for the poor, scientific and medical research, cultural conservation, education, humanitarian relief, space colonization, and health.

 

The WOC will act as a World Court, with supreme jurisdiction on, among others, environmental damage, human rights violations, unfair business and labour practices, disputes between nations, metahuman affairs, and weapons limitation. Failure to comply with the Court rulings shall constitute a capital crime, to be converted in fines, imprisonment, community service, or other penalties, at the Court's discretion. The Court reserves the right to avoke all controversies about metahuman affairs.

 

The WOC members will have full diplomatic immunity, and a WOC representative for every five WOC full members will be a permanent voting member of the U.N. Security Council.

 

WOC decisions shall be taken with a three/fifths majority. By a three/thirds majority, new members may be accepted, and by a four/fifths majority, existing members be expelled. Members of the U.N. Security Council (which will be expanded to include as permanent members Germany, Japan, India, Brazil. The U.N. General Assembly shall be splitted in two chambers, one directly elected by the peoples of the world, and one chamber nominated by the governments with voting rights weighted according to the country's economic power), regional supra-national organizations, as the E.U., and the U.N. General Assembly may propose new members for the Council, or they may be co-opted to the Council on its initiative. WOC members must be bona fide metahumans dedicated to preserve and defend the freedom, welfare and happiness of mankind, and the preservation of Earth's biosphere, with metahuman capabilities sufficient to efficiently and single-handedly defend the WOC's goals against all enemies. The WOC sponsors scientific and mystical reserach aimed to grant metahuman abilities fit to fulfill conditions for WOC membership to deserving candidates. Outstanding human citizens who have especially enriched mankind for their cultural, scientific, social or political activities may be proposed and accepted as honorary or candidate members of the WOC with limited voting rigths.

 

 

And if and after characters take over?? Before all, it is uncertain whether the outcome of the war we'll leave enough of the sioo-political amd economic infrastructure of modern nations intact to allow such of an ordered and limited takeover. It may be that massive use of nuclear weapons, and massive all-out superhuman brawls leave civilization in a smoldering ruin. In which case the PCs would have the Herculean task of helping mankind rebuilding civilization. And in the power void, other supers would be likely tempted to setting up their little enclaves and feuds, with the potential with more power struggles. Or surgical strikes against government top leaderships may leave civilization's infrastructure intact enough. Then PCs would be faced with the chores and temptations of power. Other supers following their examples and trying to enforce their agenda, or loyalist normals and supers setting up a guerilla. The ever-present temptation to setting up absolute dictatorship or resort to atrocity against civilians in the face of further resistance. The bore of wading through administrative detail. The crowing of sychophants, groupies, and worshippers sprouting up everywhere from their very success. Super-villains or alien invders seizing the moment and striking against a disorganized and weakened human civilization.

 

How much damage do you think would be needed to throw the machine of modren civilization in full disarray?? Just deposing top national leaderships and smashing the top enchelons of corporations with the worst environmental and human rights record, as it would be in the group's intentions, doesn't seem quite enough.

 

 

BTW, since RP is also about escapist wish fulfillment, and all of the group are cordial Bush-haters, one scene we are likely to want into the story, if the things escalate into full war and the characters are winning, is them storming the White House bunker and killing/deposing/humiliating on live TV the current US president's fictional lookalike and its bunch of cronies...err aides and Cabinet (though we are fair: anti-Western baddies and Third-World dictatorial governments like North Korea's president and cronies, Castro, Burma's junta, Arafat, Iran's ruling clergy, China's party dictatorship, and every localizable nest of Islamic terrorists on Earth would have been exterminated by the group long before things come to war with democratic governments; doing away with such scum would be high on the list of the starting goals in the characters' crusade. And given the current Administration's general stance, it looks like they are going to choose war tactics that will goad the group into elininating them than say the governments of Britain or Japan). Who gets to succeed if the President, VP and Cabinet members are eliminated??

[assault]

Frankly if I was playing in this kind of setting, my PC would turn against the others.

 

His argument would go: "ordinary humans have to resolve their own problems. They don't need some bunch of wannabe demigods to do it for them."

 

The situation would get violent as soon as they started overthrowing "dictatorships".

[Wanderer]

Yawn. How cliche. My PC would likely respond "While you wait for the bleathing masses to stop picking their noses while looking at the latest reality show and notice problems, dissidents get killed and tortured, innocents are slaughtered, the ozone hole widens, and the environement gets ruined for the future generations. If destiny has given me these godlike powers, it's my responsibility to use them as I deem best, to make the world a better place, and I won't skirt my duty. If you don't want to be part of the solution, stand aside, or be part of the problem"

 

Fortunately, all of the group has agreed that no character will be given that kind of Clark Kent boyscoutish personality, so the obnoxious four-color "noninterference" cliche will not raise its head (unless some PC were to stoop to widespread slaughter of innocents or casual killing from the sheer psychological pressure of waging a revolution, but that's another story).

 

All PCs and NPCs of the character group will be of the kind that want to interfere in mankind's problems. Objection rejected.

[assault]

Originally posted by Wanderer

bleathing masses ... If destiny has given me these godlike powers, it's my responsibility to use them as I deem best, to make the world a better place, and I won't skirt my duty. If you don't want to be part of the solution, stand aside, or be part of the problem"

 

"Destiny seems to have given you more than just 'godlike powers'. It seems to have handed you a case of drooling megalomania as well."

[Wanderer]

Originally posted by assault

"Destiny seems to have given you more than just 'godlike powers'. It seems to have handed you a case of drooling megalomania as well."

 

"Courage and vision to change the world always look like a folly and a crime to the coward and the dimwitted. Everyone has the possibility, and the responsibility, to change the world for the better. I just have a greater leverage, and a greater duty".