Block Confusion

[xirr2000]

I am little unsure how block works. Let's say I have martial block, this adds 2 to my OCV and DCV. My character decides he wants to block the next melee attack aimed at him. Does the opponent have to hit him first, using his new DCV and if successful do I get to attempt to block it? Or do I try to block first and if I fail then the opponent has to make a hit roll to him me using my new and improved DCV?

 

Or are both of these false and my opponent automatically hits and I just get a block roll and the increase in DCV applies to any other attacks that come my way that phase?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Block Confusion

 

I think you are reading it right, I don't have a copy of the rules handy but yes.

 

You get a +2OCV on the Block attempt which is versus the attackers CV. But even if you fail you are harder for him and all other hand to hand attackers to hit.

 

I do not think the DCV modifier applies to ranged attacks, but that *might* just be an ingrained house rule of mine.

 

Hawksmoor

[xirr2000]

Re: Block Confusion

 

I'm reading it right? I gave 3 examples of how block could work. Which one of those examples do you think is reading it right?

[austenandrews]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Does the opponent have to hit him first' date=' using his new DCV and if successful do I get to attempt to block it? Or do I try to block first and if I fail then the opponent has to make a hit roll to him me using my new and improved DCV?[/quote']

 

My impression was always that the former is correct. My players prefer the latter, because it involves fewer dice rolls, even though it's worse for the defender in the long run. I don't have my book handy, but I'd be surprised if it's not spelled out somewhere in the rules.

 

-AA

[ghost-angel]

Re: Block Confusion

 

I'm pretty sure it's you get +2OCV to attempt the block, if you fail you gain +2DCV vs the incoming attack, and mostly likely any other hand-to-hand attacks coming your way untill your next phase.

[devlin1]

Re: Block Confusion

 

For the attack you're actually Blocking, you do opposed OCV Rolls (his Attack OCV vs. your Block OCV). For all other attacks until your next Phase, you're at +2 DCV.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Dont have a rulebook handy, but:

 

They roll to hit you at your modified DCV. If they miss you do not have to attempt to block -- it is illogical to block a missed attack afterall as there is no point to it.

 

You retain the heightented DCV until your next Phase, and during that time if any one successfully hits you in hand to hand you may attempt to block suffering a cumulative -2 OCV per Block attempt.

 

Once you fail an attempt to Block you may not try again on that action (though you can in some circumstances abort to Block again using your next action). However, you still retain the heightened DCV of the Martial Block Manuever and any other relevant bonuses until you take your next Phase.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Great I was not remembering incorrectly.

 

Hawksmoor

[xirr2000]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Looks like everyone seems to be picking one of the 3 options for their campaigns, but no one seems to know specifically which is the correct interpretation. Anyone able to cite a quote from the book to help clarify this?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Not at teh moment but I'd go with Shrike as he is a Hero expert.

 

Hawksmoor

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Not at teh moment but I'd go with Shrike as he is a Hero expert.

 

Hawksmoor

Thanx for the kind words, but I would consider myself merely a HERO Journeyman.

 

Gary, Derek Heimforth, Dan Simon, and Lord Liaden all know the rules better than I, and Im sure there are others as well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

And Steve L. has spoken:

 

Usually it works like this:

 

1. Opponent declares that he's trying to hit you.

 

2. You declare that you're attempting to Block. You make your Block roll, pitting your OCV (as modified by the Block) against his OCV.

 

3. If you succeed, his attack is Blocked and does not affect you. If you fail, he still has to hit your DCV (as modified by the Block) to do damage to you; he might still miss.

 

Although that seems a little illogical to me -- if the attacker misses my DCV anyway in the first place, why should I have to roll to block them? I think Ill continue to do it the way I have in the past, though it is good to know the official method for sure.

[xirr2000]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Ya, that does seem weird to me as well. Wonder how this relates to Missile Deflect as it seems to get treated like a block but with different benefits. Seems odd that you would have to deflect attacks that may not even hit you. I'll post that for Steve as well and see what he has to say. Thanks for the feedback all.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Book Nerd to the rescue!

 

From FREd p. 255: " A character who wants to Block must declare his intention before his attacker makes an Attack Roll. To attempt a Block, he must make an Attack Roll against his opponent's OCV (not DCV). If successful, he Blocks the attack and takes no damage (and no Knockdown or Knockback)... If the Block is missed, the character still has to hit the Blocking character's DCV."

 

Any benefits or penalties to DCV from a maneuver remain in effect until the character can act on his next action Phase. The DCV bonus from a Martial Block affects any other attacks directed against the character, unless the GM rules otherwise. (Those last two points are in the FAQ, although I don't have the specific reference handy.)

 

I guess it's true that Block isn't as popular as Dodge, when so many HERO veterans don't know the specs for it off the top of their heads.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Ya' date=' that does seem weird to me as well. Wonder how this relates to Missile Deflect as it seems to get treated like a block but with different benefits. Seems odd that you would have to deflect attacks that may not even hit you. I'll post that for Steve as well and see what he has to say. Thanks for the feedback all.[/quote']

 

Actually, it makes sense to me; you're essentially targetting an incoming fist/projectile/beam etc., trying to hit it so that you knock it away. Whether it's perfectly on course to hit you is beside the point (admittedly you likely won't feel that way if it hits).

 

One great benefit to the "official" method is that you get two chances to avoid the incoming attack, which greatly improves your odds for success. Cumulatively they rival the benefit of a successful Dodge, according to some statisticians who have posted here - I admit that's not really my area of expertise, so I have to take their word for it.

[sbarron]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Although that seems a little illogical to me -- if the attacker misses my DCV anyway in the first place' date=' why should I have to roll to block them? I think Ill continue to do it the way I have in the past, though it is good to know the official method for sure.[/quote']

 

Blocking is not something you do after you are hit. The blocking character actively tries to prevent the attack from hitting him. So he rolls to intercept the attack first. If he succeeds, then it doesn't matter whether the attacker hit or not. If he fails, then the attacker gets his roll taking the defenders +2 DCV into account.

 

I think this way is logical for a couple or reasons. First, it prevents the defender from thinking he can do something other than block if the attacker misses (since the defender has already taken an action). Second, it makes more sense that the defender gets the +2 DCV after he has actively attempted to block (rolled). If you wait until after the attacker rolls, the reason the +2 DCV is provided is less clear.

 

Granted, it makes no difference either way if you know the rules. But the "official" method makes more sense to me, and keeps things simple for those who don't know the rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Blocking is not something you do after you are hit. The blocking character actively tries to prevent the attack from hitting him. So he rolls to intercept the attack first. If he succeeds' date=' then it doesn't matter whether the attacker hit or not. If he fails, then the attacker gets his roll taking the defenders +2 DCV into account.[/quote']

 

I look at it the other way -- the goal is to not get hit. You abort to the manuever before knowing if you are hit or not. If the defender must roll to block first thats a die roll and if they miss the attacker then rolls to hit for a second die roll. Two die rolls for a missed block on an attack that may not have even hit in the first place. Plus, if the block is missed the defender cant try to block anyone else.

 

If instead the attacker rolls to hit and they miss then 1 roll determined it and the defender is free to continue blocking further attacks until their next Phase without risking a missed block on a missed attack.

 

Makes Block a little better IMO, and requires fewer rolls to determine.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Block Confusion

 

I look at it the other way -- the goal is to not get hit. You abort to the manuever before knowing if you are hit or not. If the defender must roll to block first thats a die roll and if they miss the attacker then rolls to hit for a second die roll. Two die rolls for a missed block on an attack that may not have even hit in the first place. Plus, if the block is missed the defender cant try to block anyone else.

 

If instead the attacker rolls to hit and they miss then 1 roll determined it and the defender is free to continue blocking further attacks until their next Phase without risking a missed block on a missed attack.

 

Makes Block a little better IMO, and requires fewer rolls to determine.

 

This takes away one of the risks involved in blocking. If you miss you can't continue to block other attacks. Whether or not the attack that your block targets would have hit or not should make no difference.

[devlin1]

Re: Block Confusion

 

I look at it the other way -- the goal is to not get hit. You abort to the manuever before knowing if you are hit or not.

I can see the logic there, but I think the way it's built it's supposed to reflect a form of "all-out defense"; even if that defense doesn't end up being used, the character still had to devote attention (i.e., a Half Phase) to performing a very active defensive maneuver. Ditto Dodge.

 

I'm reminded (fondly) of Rolemaster. If you decide to use part of your OB to increase your DB, even if your opponent Fumbles you still devoted a percentage of your action towards defense. You don't get those points of OB back later in the round when it's your turn to attack.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Im just saying that to my mind if the attack missess it misses. One method requires 2 die rolls to determine this and penalizes a Blocker (contributing to Dodge's statistical superiority), while the other requires 1 die roll for the same resolution and gives the benefit of the doubt to the Blocker.

 

Im not arguing the official ruling, Im just stating a preference for a more liberal interpretation in the form of "Roll to Block only if actually hit". The Blocker is still Blocking and has still allocated their CSL's prior to the opponent rolling to hit. The only difference is that if the attacker misses the defender gets a "bye" and avoids having to roll.

 

Pluses: Favors the defender and requires less time to resolve a miss (one fewer die roll).

 

Cons: Not book legal.

 

So in other words, I understand the official rule and dont need it explained, I just dont agree with the rules in this case.

[devlin1]

Re: Block Confusion

 

So in other words' date=' I understand the official rule and dont need it explained, I just dont agree with the rules in this case.[/quote']Oh, I know. I was just playing both sides of the fence. I guess I'd better figure out my official position on this, since I'm about to run a Wuxia Hero game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

Oh' date=' I know. I was just playing both sides of the fence. I guess I'd better figure out my official position on this, since I'm about to run a Wuxia Hero game. [/quote']

F2F or PBEM?

[devlin1]

Re: Block Confusion

 

WARNING: THREAD DERAILMENT AHEAD

 

 

 

F2F or PBEM?

F2F. It's pretty much the first Hero game I've run after years of playing the damn thing....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Block Confusion

 

WARNING: THREAD DERAILMENT AHEAD

 

 

 

F2F. It's pretty much the first Hero game I've run after years of playing the damn thing....

I successfully blocked your Thread Derailment attempts, and am at +2 DCV vs future Thread Derailment attempts until my next Phase.

 

When and where are you running?

[devlin1]

Re: Block Confusion

 

When and where are you running?

Continued via PM. Sorry, you non-San Diego suckers!