proditor Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Anyone who plays Hero/Champions knows that the main complaint most people trot out is there is too much math involved in just making a PC. Does anyone else remember making your Villains and Vigilantes characters with a freaking scientific calculator to calculate Hit Points and Lift capacity??? I swear...you youngins and your math. Spoiled I say, spoiled. Anyhoo, that came up as I was looking at my Avatar and remembering what was actually involved in Character creation in V&V. I now return you to your regular programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Re: Math is hard... I do indeed remember doing V&V and the whacky formulas for figuring out all the secondary stats. But to me that was part of the appeal. And this is coming from someone who is NOT a big math fan. Hero I have never found math intensive. Hardest thing you have to do is say... take 40 active points and divide it by 1.75. Ooooh, division! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Cowboy Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... While I never paid much attention to math in high school my love of the early Champions systems, and using scratch paper to figure out that stuff got me to the point I could fly through basic math. Sure came in handy when I finally decided to go back to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... And you can use an excel spreadsheet to automate it, even. (note -- put advantages and disadvantages in the relevant blanks as decimal equivalents -- 0.25, .5, .75, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proditor Posted April 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... Heh. Yeah, Champions and V&V improved my basic math skills to a terrifying degree. I can't do higher math to save my or anyone else's life, but that simple stuff, that's high speed cake now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... Heh. Yeah' date=' Champions and V&V improved my basic math skills to a terrifying degree. I can't do higher math to save my or anyone else's life, but that simple stuff, that's high speed cake now.[/quote'] C'mon how can you knock (STR/10)^3+(END/10)*(Weight/2)? That was an awesome bit o math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneDaddy Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... C'mon how can you knock (STR/10)^3+(END/10)*(Weight/2)? That was an awesome bit o math. Late at night when I can't sleep, I'll work out a champs power in my head, multiplying and then dividing by fractions until I nod off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... While I never paid much attention to math in high school my love of the early Champions systems, and using scratch paper to figure out that stuff got me to the point I could fly through basic math. Sure came in handy when I finally decided to go back to school. And people say RPGs have no redeeming value, and never taught anyone anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... Anyone who plays Hero/Champions knows that the main complaint most people trot out is there is too much math involved in just making a PC. I've found that this complaint commonly comes in two varieties: A) "Everyone tells me you need a slide rule and a scientific calculator to play Champions/Hero. I don't want to do that, so I guess Hero isn't for me." It's hard to blame them for having been told something, and if they're happy playing some other game, more power to them. Someone who genuinely wants the combination of flexibility and balance that Hero aims for will generally be easily convinced that they were minsiformed. "I don't want to think out my character and build him from the ground up, detail by detail. I'm not actually incapable of doing the math, but I'd rather tell others (and myself) that the math is what drove me away, rather than the fact that I either didn't understand the character creation process or didn't want to make the effort." In other words, it's the sheer weight of options and details, and the implied responsibility to choose amongst them that they don't want, rather than the math. Again, there's nothing wrong with the fact that they don't like Hero. If they prefer a system where some character design choices are pre-made, or a simpler/less precise method of describing a character, that's a personal, subjective choice and I support it. You don't need to justify it to me. But, often people feel the need to justify their actions to themselves and others, and sometimes saying "Math is hard!" is less of a self-esteem hit than saying "I'm too lazy and/or uncreative!" (or thinking that someone else will say it about them). So, they build up a sort of Calculus-Chimera in their minds and use that as a justification for going with another system, when there's really no need to justify it. Then, of course, they have to defend their self-justification to everyone else, lest one of their friends discover Hero, realize it's not really any more math-intensive than D&D, and blow their cover. These people, of course, are the ones who create group A, by spreading horror stories about the sheer quantity and complexity of the calculations necessary. Maybe it's just my 'armchair psychologist' side, but that's my take on the phenomenon. Of course, I suppose there are some people out there who are confused by any math more complicated than simple addition and subtraction of single-digit numbers, and are actually incapable of playing any game that doesn't feature 'pick from a list' or 'choose some adjectives' character creation and single die rolls for resolution. But, frankly, even if they do exist, I suspect that they're a vanishingly small percentage of Hero detractors, much less roleplayers in general. Again, this is not intended as an attack on those systems or the people who prefer them. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm asserting that the people who prefer 'math-lite' or 'rules-lite' systems are perfectly capable of playing a more complex game, they just don't want to. And I'm cool with that. I just wish they wouldn't try to impose their preferences on others, intentionally or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Re: Math is hard... Math is easy. Comedy is hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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