VPPs and Limitations

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Limitations on a power inside a Cosmic VPP are still prohibitive to the use of the power when the power is used.

 

If you have 60 pts to play with and you need to 60pt powers in one phase you have to limit the powers somehow. No that may be using a focus for one power so it takes less of your pool (defined as using less personal energy) and one can be taken as costing extra END (using less personal mystic energy and more personal physical energy).

 

Sure next phase you only need one power so remove the limitations you had on it before to use only your personal mystic energy (or whatever you want to call it).

 

I would say both limits are legitimate. If the focus is removed, you need to get it back to get those points back. Thus, the limitation carries a risk of a bad consequence. Increased END means you pay the END. You can change the limit next phasde, but that doesn't bring back your END you already spent.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Just to add some food for thought:

 

One common lim I allow on VPP's is a varient of VarLim (Powers Require X lim; Value equal to half lim). The catch is there is a list they must choose from for X. In this situation a few limited powers work.

 

Example character has "Only in darkness" on the list, this is fine, his powers are easier to use in the dark, it would not be okay for him to ALSO have "Only in light". With the first if he is not in the dark he has to switch to another lim that is on the list (Maybe x2 END, ro RSR)

I allow the same approach, but unless the list is very short I still dont permist "situational" Lims on Cosmic VPP. "Impact" Lims are fine as when they are taken they have an effect, but Lims that control when and where a Power can be used really just dont limit the Cosmic VPP person unless they have a set list of Powers or SFX limiting Lims on their VPP.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

I would say both limits are legitimate. If the focus is removed' date=' you need to get it back to get those points back. Thus, the limitation carries a risk of a bad consequence. Increased END means you pay the END. You can change the limit next phasde, but that doesn't bring back your END you already spent.[/quote']

Actually if the character does not take FOCUS on the Control Cost, and only takes it on the Powers in the VPP, then losing a FOCUS doesnt impact the VPP, it just means you cant use that particular power until you recover that Focus. Pg 210 "Losing Powers" is all about how Foci and VPPs interact.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Pg 210 under "Limitations" states:

 

A VPP which a character can easily change inst very restricted by any given Limitation since the character can switch to another Power which doesnt suffer from that Limitation if a situation arises where it would hinder the Power. Therefore unless the characters ability to change VPP Powers is restricted' date=' characters should take few, if any, Limitations on VPP Powers; all such Limitations are subject to GM approval. [/quote']

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

I personally sidestep the whole Abuse issue of a Cosmic VPP by requiring a set list of powers. Adding a new power requires either Time (at least an hour), an INT and/or EGO Roll, Good Story.

 

During a session, and especially during Combat, you're stuck with your list. Cosmic in this case merely means "Entire List Available At Any Moment" where the Gadget Pool player (who also has to have a list) is restricted by Rolls and Time to switch out gadgets.

 

In this case almost any Limitation you have is actually Limiting until you get to a point where one can change the power to lose the Limitation (ie, change their list).

 

To get back to the original question asked .. you add Limitations to powers inside a VPP so the Real Cost is lowered so you can use more powers simultaenously.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Cosmic VPP-Guy: "Hey, Im bound and gagged; no big deal, I switch my VPP around so I can use the same effect I would have otherwise, but without Incant and Gesture!"

 

The limitation of Incant & Gesture is that sometimes you wont be able to Incant or Gesture and thus cant use the power. But the Cosmic VPP guy never suffers that inconvenience, so its not limiting to them.

How is that different from saying "Well, I'm running out of END now, so I'll remove that x2 END from my Powers and continue." or "This is taking too long, I'll remove my Full Phase Limitations..."? It isn't. Incantations and Gesture have an effect on combat, and are just as valid Limitations.

 

"Only/Not at Night" is riduculous Limitation for a Cosmic Pool, because it has absolutely no effect. With Gestures, you can be Entangled in combat, and be forced to switch your points around (possibly reducing level of another Power, or removing it alltogether). That is limiting. Unless some bozo routinely shows up with a Change Env: Night ability, such a Limitation is worthless becaue it has no effect in combat.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations... MUCH to ponder!

 

A Cosmic VPP is literally 0 Phase Change, No Skill Roll Required. If you dont have any Lims on the VPP, then it literally is anything goes.

 

If you have 0 Phase Change, NSR, but can only use certain types of SFX or Powers, then that restriction on your VPP is worth a Lim on the Control Cost. Such Limitations constitute the second kind of Lims you can take on a Control Cost (FRED p209).

So not true. As long as we're quoting page numbers, check out the first paragraph on 209. It specifically states "Think of a Variable Power Pool ("VPP") as a Multipower which has all the Powers of a certain type or special effect."

 

Note it doesn't say "all the Powers" and leave it at that. It's limited by SFX. Sometimes that SFX is broad enough to not warrent any Limitation (such as magic that doesn't require any particular Limitations, or mutant abilities), but it's still limited to SFX. A Magic Pool has magic powers, and react as such versus Vulnerabilities, Susceptabilities and Adjustment Powers in all cases. You can't switch the SFX of your Magic Pool to "mutant" or "gadget" just because you're fighting a Demon that has Damage Reduction Only Versus Magic.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations... MUCH to ponder!

 

So not true. As long as we're quoting page numbers, check out the first paragraph on 209. It specifically states "Think of a Variable Power Pool ("VPP") as a Multipower which has all the Powers of a certain type or special effect."

 

Note it doesn't say "all the Powers" and leave it at that. It's limited by SFX. Sometimes that SFX is broad enough to not warrent any Limitation (such as magic that doesn't require any particular Limitations, or mutant abilities), but it's still limited to SFX. A Magic Pool has magic powers, and react as such versus Vulnerabilities, Susceptabilities and Adjustment Powers in all cases. You can't switch the SFX of your Magic Pool to "mutant" or "gadget" just because you're fighting a Demon that has Damage Reduction Only Versus Magic.

But if you dont actually take any restrictive limitations then mechanically you can take any Power you like.

 

Magic Only is worth a -1/4 by the book in most situations, Gadget Only can be take as a Limitation a number of ways w/ or w/o Focus. Mutant Powers Only is similar enough to Magic Only for a -1/4. And so on.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

How is that different from saying "Well, I'm running out of END now, so I'll remove that x2 END from my Powers and continue." or "This is taking too long, I'll remove my Full Phase Limitations..."? It isn't. Incantations and Gesture have an effect on combat, and are just as valid Limitations.

Full Phase always costs an extra 1/2 Phase Action when used, and END is a finite resource and x2 END always has an impact. Obviously if a particular character has so much END (or an END Reserve) that x2 END applied here and there isnt really Limiting the GM can force them to take it at a higher value or not at all.

 

Incant and Gestures on the other hand only have an effect in that there is a potential that you wont be able to use the Power if you cant Incant or Gesture. If that situation never occurs (bcs you can switch a Power Construct around to avoid it as a 0 Phase NSR action), then neither actually Limit the character.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Full Phase always costs an extra 1/2 Phase Action when used, and END is a finite resource and x2 END always has an impact. Obviously if a particular character has so much END (or an END Reserve) that x2 END applied here and there isnt really Limiting the GM can force them to take it at a higher value or not at all.

 

Incant and Gestures on the other hand only have an effect in that there is a potential that you wont be able to use the Power if you cant Incant or Gesture. If that situation never occurs (bcs you can switch a Power Construct around to avoid it as a 0 Phase NSR action), then neither actually Limit the character.

Actually, they do still limit the character. Incantations requires "obvious" vocal chanting or yealling than can be heard from some distance. Gestures requires obvious gesturing that can be seen from some distance. This not only enables onlookers to tell that he's doing something, people with an appropriate skill could tell exactly what he's doing.

 

The only difference is that fine line between Heroic and Superheroic. In Superheroic, these things are generally considered a SFX, but in Heroic it's a definate limitation. Then there's those GMs who think it's a limitation in either genre (such as myself) especially if it's a campaign that involves a lot of situations that can make those Limitations limiting.

 

In short, Gestures and Incantations are limiting, but generally only in Heroic games (or any campaign that would allow them in the first place).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Actually' date=' they [i']do[/i] still limit the character. Incantations requires "obvious" vocal chanting or yealling than can be heard from some distance. Gestures requires obvious gesturing that can be seen from some distance. This not only enables onlookers to tell that he's doing something, people with an appropriate skill could tell exactly what he's doing.

 

The only difference is that fine line between Heroic and Superheroic. In Superheroic, these things are generally considered a SFX, but in Heroic it's a definate limitation. Then there's those GMs who think it's a limitation in either genre (such as myself) especially if it's a campaign that involves a lot of situations that can make those Limitations limiting.

 

In short, Gestures and Incantations are limiting, but generally only in Heroic games (or any campaign that would allow them in the first place).

The fact that the "visible" aspect of Incant & Gestures are easily blanketed by SFX and the normal rules regarding visibility of most Powers is a good indication that they are not really limiting enough for a value, particularly in an otherwise unrestricted Cosmic VPP.

 

The primary function of Incant and Gestures is to restrain power activation.

 

You can choose to allow it if you like, but you are going against the rules recommendation that few if any limits be taken in an unrestricted VPP when you do so. Well and good if you want to, but you are basically giving free points to the user of such a VPP by letting them take Lims that are not actually limiting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

You can choose to allow it if you like' date=' but you are going against the rules recommendation that few if any limits be taken in an unrestricted VPP when you do so. Well and good if you want to, but you are basically giving free points to the user of such a VPP by letting them take Lims that are not actually limiting.[/quote']

You'll be telling a different story when you're caught after switching points by a nasty Entangle or Darkness vs Hearing.

 

Of course, if these things never happen, you're right, it's not a Limitation worth points. But I'm a reactive GM and like to make my players earn their point breaks. Anything can be taken advantage of in combat is valid as far as I'm concerned. Incant and Gest are no exceptions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Originally Posted by Killer Shrike

You can choose to allow it if you like, but you are going against the rules recommendation that few if any limits be taken in an unrestricted VPP when you do so. Well and good if you want to, but you are basically giving free points to the user of such a VPP by letting them take Lims that are not actually limiting.

 

You'll be telling a different story when you're caught after switching points by a nasty Entangle or Darkness vs Hearing.

 

Of course, if these things never happen, you're right, it's not a Limitation worth points. But I'm a reactive GM and like to make my players earn their point breaks. Anything can be taken advantage of in combat is valid as far as I'm concerned. Incant and Gest are no exceptions.

 

You're both assessing the same thing. I don't think KS is arguing Incant and Gestures are never limiting. He's arguing they are not limiting when you can change the pool without a roll, instantaneously.

 

Character needs a skill roll and change takes a full phase. He's entangled, so he has to ditch the gestures. He'll lose 1 phase at least. Limiting.

 

Character takes 0 phase and no skill roll. He's entangled. He shifts some points to a Teleport with no gestures or incantations, ports out and gestures and incants to fire his EB. Or he just swaps out Gestures and Incantations for some other -1/2 total limitation. Not limiting.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Character takes 0 phase and no skill roll. He's entangled. He shifts some points to a Teleport with no gestures or incantations' date=' ports out and gestures and incants to fire his EB. Or he just swaps out Gestures and Incantations for some other -1/2 total limitation. Not limiting.[/quote']

Even with the cosmic pool, if you've already changed your points for the Phase, you can't change them until your next Phase. So you could still loose a Phase even if it's cosmic. It's not as limiting as a normal VPP, but it's also more expensive.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

You'll be telling a different story when you're caught after switching points by a nasty Entangle or Darkness vs Hearing.

 

Of course, if these things never happen, you're right, it's not a Limitation worth points. But I'm a reactive GM and like to make my players earn their point breaks. Anything can be taken advantage of in combat is valid as far as I'm concerned. Incant and Gest are no exceptions.

In a 0 Phase Change, NSR Pool, switching points takes no time and has no chance of failure. Thus, the Incant & Gestures is not limiting.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Even with the cosmic pool' date=' if you've already changed your points for the Phase, you can't change them until your next Phase. So you could still loose a Phase even if it's cosmic. It's not as limiting as a normal VPP, but it's also more expensive.[/quote']

Under what circumstances would you take a 0 phase action to switch to a version of a Power w/ Incant & Gestures, and some how end up getting Entangled or the like before using the Power that Phase --

 

Basically the only situations I can think of where this might happen is

 

a) if the character then held a Half Phase rather than use the power and got Entangled before taking the held Half Phase

 

if the Power also had Extra Time to activate, in which case the character could be Entangled before the power activated, thus preventing them from Gesturing, or similar.

 

I case a) the character should just wait to switch their VPP around when they actually take the held 1/2 Phase rather. Doing it earlier and then holding serves no purpose and is just bad timing unless something else were going on.

 

 

is actually limiting, but it is the addition of Extra Time to the mix which adds the opportunity for other characters to disrupt the action, and thus allows the Incant and Gestures to become limiting for the 0 Phase Change NSR character.

[Vorsch]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

VPPs are alredy to effective for there point cost and when you throw in " allow meaningless/unlimiting lims" they just become truly unbalancing.

 

lims should apply to the control cost only and hence be fixed as part of the VPP Sfx (magic get inc, psionic 1/2 dcv concen etc ).

 

Chosing lims that arnt limiting if you dont want them, like x2 end, i wouldnt allow.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

Under what circumstances would you take a 0 phase action to switch to a version of a Power w/ Incant & Gestures, and some how end up getting Entangled or the like before using the Power that Phase --

 

Basically the only situations I can think of where this might happen is

 

a) if the character then held a Half Phase rather than use the power and got Entangled before taking the held Half Phase

 

if the Power also had Extra Time to activate, in which case the character could be Entangled before the power activated, thus preventing them from Gesturing, or similar.

 

I case a) the character should just wait to switch their VPP around when they actually take the held 1/2 Phase rather. Doing it earlier and then holding serves no purpose and is just bad timing unless something else were going on.

 

 

is actually limiting, but it is the addition of Extra Time to the mix which adds the opportunity for other characters to disrupt the action, and thus allows the Incant and Gestures to become limiting for the 0 Phase Change NSR character.

There's also the possibility of an opponent holding their action, seeing/hearing your Gestures and Incantions and reacting (this requires a DEX roll, but there's always a change they'll make it, and if their attack is successful you're stuck).

 

The question would be how often something like this (or the scenarios you describe) is to happen in any given campaign. It's actually likely to happen in mine, because there are lot of characters running around with Entangles, and a lot of characters who hold their actions to attempt to take others off guard. If this doesn't happen in your campain, then it isn't limiting. It does happen in mine, so it is, in fact, limiting.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

There's also the possibility of an opponent holding their action, seeing/hearing your Gestures and Incantions and reacting (this requires a DEX roll, but there's always a change they'll make it, and if their attack is successful you're stuck).

 

The question would be how often something like this (or the scenarios you describe) is to happen in any given campaign. It's actually likely to happen in mine, because there are lot of characters running around with Entangles, and a lot of characters who hold their actions to attempt to take others off guard. If this doesn't happen in your campain, then it isn't limiting. It does happen in mine, so it is, in fact, limiting.

 

If there are opponents standing around holding with the capacity to Entangle, the Cosmic VPP person is an idiot if they try to pop off a Spell or what have you w/ Incant & Gestures when they can just switch out for some other Lim in that situation.

 

Also, how much is "occasionally disrupted if an opponent Holds to disrupt me AndAlso that opponent wins a DEX off with me AndAlso that opponent can Entangle or otherwise restrain me, AndAlso I was dumb enough to take the Lim in the first place in such a situation" worth as a Limitation?

 

Less than -1/4 I'm thinking. YMMV

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

If there are opponents standing around holding with the capacity to Entangle' date=' the Cosmic VPP person is an idiot if they try to pop off a Spell or what have you w/ Incant & Gestures when they can just switch out for some other Lim in that situation.[/quote']

You mean you know what each and every character involved in combat is going to do before they act?

 

Also, how much is "occasionally disrupted if an opponent Holds to disrupt me AndAlso that opponent wins a DEX off with me AndAlso that opponent can Entangle or otherwise restrain me, AndAlso I was dumb enough to take the Lim in the first place in such a situation" worth as a Limitation?

 

Less than -1/4 I'm thinking. YMMV

 

Of course it's worth less than that! Duh! But that's why I made you pay all those points for the Cosmic on the VPP. Apparently my miliage does vary. I don't play omnsentient characters who never get taken advantage of.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

You mean you know what each and every character involved in combat is going to do before they act?

If its even a possibility, only a fool would take unnecessary risks.

 

Of course it's worth less than that! Duh! But that's why I made you pay all those points for the Cosmic on the VPP. Apparently my miliage does vary. I don't play omnsentient characters who never get taken advantage of.

They pay a lot of points for Cosmic VPP's because Cosmic VPP's are hugely advantaging and powerful, not so a character can back fill their RC footprint with bogus limitations that dont actually limit the character if the player has even a nominal understanding of timing and situational decision making.

[Grailknight]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

An example to show why I don't allow lim on Var Pools

 

Mage 1: 50 pt Cosmic Pool with 1/2 variable limitations on powers. Cost 100 pts. May use up to 75 active pts with -1 limitations that are Always on all powers.

 

Mage 2: 50 pt Cosmic Pool. Cost 125 pts. If limitations are allowed may use 100 pts of powers using the same lims as Mage 1 because lims aren't being halved. May have no lims on powers at any time. May have limited and unlimited powers at same time.

 

Which character would you rather be? I choose option 2 every time.

 

The Var Lim Limitation implies that being able to switch lims for the situation makes them only 1/2 value. What would you give as a value for Var Lim that aren't halved and can be turned off? I'd say that was a net advantage because you get free pts at the minimal risk of losing an attack and can eliminate the risk at any time.

[Dust Raven]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

If its even a possibility' date=' only a fool would take unnecessary risks.[/quote']

So you admit it's limiting then?

 

 

They pay a lot of points for Cosmic VPP's because Cosmic VPP's are hugely advantaging and powerful, not so a character can back fill their RC footprint with bogus limitations that dont actually limit the character if the player has even a nominal understanding of timing and situational decision making.

There's a difference between "nonimal understanding" and "omnsentience". If the character knows what EVERYBODY IN THE UNIVERSE'S Powers are, then sure, this would never be limiting. If the character can NEVER BE TAKEN BY SURPRISE then this would never be limiting. Those are some pretty big "ifs" and not even remotely "nominal."

 

(note: all caps for extra emphisis only )

 

And... exactly what do you mean by "RC footprint"?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

So you admit it's limiting then?

Only marginally and if the player is, to put it bluntly, playing stupidly. Not even worth a -1/4.

 

There's a difference between "nonimal understanding" and "omnsentience". If the character knows what EVERYBODY IN THE UNIVERSE'S Powers are' date=' then sure, this would never be limiting. If the character can NEVER BE TAKEN BY SURPRISE then this would never be limiting. Those are some pretty big "ifs" and not even remotely "nominal." [/quote']

Hardly. Under normal play it would only be limiting at all under such remotely slim and highly conditional circumstances, hinging mostly upon the player being tactically unsound in their allocation of their Pool, and even then requires opponents to have certain Powers/abilities, win a DEX off, hit the character, and then get enough effect to do actually do anything to them, that its not worth any Limitation at all.

 

 

And... exactly what do you mean by "RC footprint"?

It's a conceptual reference.

 

A VPP has a finite total for Real Cost equal to its Pool. Each Power must have AP less than or equal to the Pool, and all the Powers in the Pool at once must have a Real Cost equal to or less than the Pool value.

 

Thus, each Power in the Pool can be thought of as having a "footprint" equal to its RC which impacts the number of Powers that can be fitted into the VPP at once. Lower RC = smaller footprint = generally more total Powers at once overall.

 

By allowing spurious Limitations, which are directly proscribed and recommended against in FRED for Cosmic or otherwise unrestricted VPP's, you are essentially enabling Powers to have smaller RC's and by extention for such characters to squeeze more Powers into their VPP at once.

[Southern Cross]

Re: VPPs and Limitations

 

personally,I'd never allow Gestures & /or Incantations on a power derived from a VPP unless those Limitations are applied to the Pool's Control Cost (i.e. every Power bought through the Pool has those Limitations).