Help w/a power

[Stone]

Ok I think I have this built right, I just want to run past everyone to see its right. This is a combo power (2 powers linked).

 

1) 4d6 Entangle Area of Effect Radius = 90 pts/End cost 9

40 base points

+1 advantage for radius

+1/4 X2 area

 

2) 2d6 Transfer Area of Effect = 78 pts/End cost 10

30 base points (transfer Stun to End)

+1 advantage for radius

+1 continuous

+1/4 delayed return rate (5pts/min)

-1/4 Linked to entangle

 

This is basically designed to be an anti-agent attack. The problem I am running into is the high End cost. The base cost of 19 is bad enough, but the additional 10 per phase is high as well. Granted this attack will also give End back, but I don't know if it is going to be enough to even out. Of course if the attack is able to entangle a large number of agents at once (5 or more) at one time, then that problem is mute. I was thinking about setting a duration instead of continouos, but I am a little unsure how to use that.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Help w/a power

 

First of all, what's the SFX. I gotta know what kind of character would have this power. Also, the Transfer needs Ranged (+1/2).

[Stone]

Re: Help w/a power

 

First of all' date=' what's the SFX. I gotta know what kind of character would have this power. Also, the Transfer needs Ranged (+1/2).[/quote']

 

Ugh! I knew I forgot something on the structure. The effect is an energy field that traps the people inside the field, but also drains them. The character that has this field is going to be a sneak type character. Right now I am working with the name Gremlin. He will have some mystical/supernatural qualities. This is probably going to be his only attack power. I am planning some other minor powers to go along w/this (small mulitpower - 40 pts). Other than he will have skills.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help w/a power

 

I'm not sure that the continuous nature of your Transfer hooks up well with the Entangle (which is instant).

 

That's a cool effect though!

[Stone]

Re: Help w/a power

 

I'm not sure that the continuous nature of your Transfer hooks up well with the Entangle (which is instant).

 

That's a cool effect though!

 

I want him to be able to do more than be a "set-up" character for PC's/NPC's. The transfer allows him to take out folks with out actually hurting anyone. Of course they can still yell/scream, or maybe even break the entangle.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help w/a power

 

The problem I am running into is the high End cost. The base cost of 19 is bad enough' date=' but the additional 10 per phase is high as well. Granted this attack will also give End back, but I don't know if it is going to be enough to even out. [/quote']

 

If you look at it then the 2D6 transfer should give you an average of 7 points (14 END) every phase (per person) - so it more than offsets the 10 END running cost and even if you only catch one person it should return the initial investment in five phases.

 

It is a risky power - you give up a lot of END at the start in the hope of recovering it later but it takes out agents and no more.

 

I think I might be tempted to split the energy from the field into STR/END - more risky but more likely to give side benefits. Or perhaps split the END between your own and an END battery. The END battery would charge an energy blast that you could use offensively - or some other interesting offensive power. Perhaps only allowing the power to be used when the battery is full.

 

Yes, as Dust Raven said, interesting effect - and I'm only musing as to how I'd use it....

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help w/a power

 

If you look at it then the 2D6 transfer should give you an average of 7 points (14 END) every phase (per person) - so it more than offsets the 10 END running cost and even if you only catch one person it should return the initial investment in five phases.

 

Not according to the FAQ:

 

Q: If a character has an Area Of Effect Transfer, does he apply the effect to all targets within the area and get all the points?

 

A: No. He rolls the effect on his Transfer dice and determines the amount. He then divides that as equally as possible between all the affected persons.

 

Catch one person and average 14 END. Catch 5 people and average 14 END. As well, once you get 24 END (and your target is down 12 STUN), the power does nothing, as Transfer doesn't act as a Drain when you've received the maximum points. [i don't agree with that rule, but it is the present rule.]

 

Since it's not expensive enough maybe you can add some points to the maximum transferred.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Couple of points ..

 

You really can't link a Constant Power to an Instant one, Pg196 outlines this, the constant power only activates during the phase the Instant power was used. It even recommends taking the "instant" limitation for Constant powers bought this way. Adding "Continuous" to a power is throwing points away.

 

Second, a 2D6 Transfer maxes out at 12 points and you stop getting anything from it, though that is 24END so you have a net gain of 14 END. Drain might work better for what you want, especially since it will be divided amongst everyone in the Area of the power... four ppl and you only Transfer 3 STUN from each, which isn't very effective.

 

Your best bet for this construct to take out agents is probably:

 

Entagle, AoEx2 *plus* 2D6 Transfer, AoE, Delayed Return Rate, Continuous (+2 1/4), Limited Power: Enemy must be Entagled first (-1/2 or -1/4, GM caveat).

 

Draw back here is you have to make a second attack roll to get the Transfer going, but it only works on those in the Energy Field Entagle.

[The Maxx]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Ok I think I have this built right, I just want to run past everyone to see its right. This is a combo power (2 powers linked).

 

1) 4d6 Entangle Area of Effect Radius = 90 pts/End cost 9

40 base points

+1 advantage for radius

+1/4 X2 area

 

2) 2d6 Transfer Area of Effect = 78 pts/End cost 10

30 base points (transfer Stun to End)

+1 advantage for radius

+1 continuous

+1/4 delayed return rate (5pts/min)

-1/4 Linked to entangle

 

This is basically designed to be an anti-agent attack. The problem I am running into is the high End cost. The base cost of 19 is bad enough, but the additional 10 per phase is high as well. Granted this attack will also give End back, but I don't know if it is going to be enough to even out. Of course if the attack is able to entangle a large number of agents at once (5 or more) at one time, then that problem is mute. I was thinking about setting a duration instead of continouos, but I am a little unsure how to use that.

 

While the Transfer's an interesting way of working it why not simply use a Drain instead and add on 0 END. You would also be able to make it ranged without too much trouble then.

 

just my .01 cent the IRS took the other one

[SirViss]

Re: Help w/a power

 

(As if it wasn't expensive enough...)

 

If you really want a Constant power (Continuous Transfer, Drain, etc.) to go off on the same phase as the Entangle, you could put a Trigger on it :"when people are caught in the Entangle".

[drnuncheon]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Wait...you divide the 'damage' among all the people, even though you don't do that for any other area effect power?

 

I thought that everyone in the area of effect lost (say) 14 active points, and the user got 14 active points total (but definitely not 14 active points from each target). If you applied Area Effect to a Drain, after all, you would drain each person of 14 points.

 

It seems to me that the current ruling is both inconsistent with the way everything else works in HERO, and unfair to the guy with the Transfer power.

 

Oh, and FYI:

 

then that problem is mute.

 

The problem is moot, not mute.

 

J (PsychLim: Corrects word usage, Common, Strong)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Seems to me that the current ruling is both inconsistent with the way everything else works in HERO' date=' and unfair to the guy with the Transfer power.[/quote']

 

Pretty much everything about Transfer has been revised to reduce the utility of the power. For example, once the cap is reached, it no lonfer acts as a Drain. Better to purchase a Drain and a Linked AID. Better still to make your Drain area effect and purchase a linked Aid to simulate the transfer effect.

 

Basically, after the (perceived) abuse of adjustment powers in 4e, they get hammered in 5e.

[drnuncheon]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Basically' date=' after the (perceived) abuse of adjustment powers in 4e, they get hammered in 5e.[/quote']

 

Aha, I was rememebring how it worked in 4e. Good, glad I'm not smoking the bad stuff.

 

J

[Stone]

Re: Help w/a power

 

 

The problem is moot, not mute.

 

J (PsychLim: Corrects word usage, Common, Strong)

 

Whoops! Thanks =)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Ok, I asked Steve about a similar dilema I was coming up against (imagine that...) regarding another power.

 

Steve's answer pretty much covered it - A constant power linked to an Instant becomes Instant.

 

his suggestion was where I was going .. the Constant takes a limitation of "Only after Instant Power has taken effect" and possibly even "Only during phases immediately after Instant power goes off" or in the case of your Entagle "Only while targets are Entangled."

 

The only drawback is it requires a second attack roll to trigger the Constant Power - oh well.

 

I'm glad this all came up, I would have done everything all wrong with my own power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Not according to the FAQ:

 

Q: If a character has an Area Of Effect Transfer, does he apply the effect to all targets within the area and get all the points?

 

A: No. He rolls the effect on his Transfer dice and determines the amount. He then divides that as equally as possible between all the affected persons.

The FAQ is wrong. Ignore it. It violates how every other AE attack is used, indlucing other AE Adjustment Powers.

 

In the case of any AE Power, the rull effect is applied evenly and equally throughout the area. In the case of Transfer, it's possible that regardless of how many targets there are in the area, the attacker only gains his damage roll once, instead of for each target affected (although each target would still be fully affeted by the total).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help w/a power

 

The FAQ is wrong. Ignore it.

 

I like that, very nice. Can I use that statement for any other FAQ entry I happen to disagree with?

 

While I happen to agree with you, I can see why Steve made it as it is.. it'd end up as a Drain AoE where you get some points back for it.

 

Fact is Transfer only lets you do the damage for and get the points back for the number rolled on the dice - regardless of how many targets may be affected by the Transfer. You roll a 6 and you can only do 6 points of damage in total and only get 6 points in return, even if you hit 8 targets.

 

AoE Transfer does not and should not allow you to do more damage than you paid for and get more points back than you paid for. You want to remove a lot of points from someone, buy a Drain or Supress, or EB, or anything else.

 

Once you start getting into the "Get a return beyond simple damage" ie "points back to you" arena I believe you should be limited in what you get to dish out as well. I happen to agree with the FAQ and The Rules in this case. But I'm crazy like that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help w/a power

 

I like that' date=' very nice. Can I use that statement for any other FAQ entry I happen to disagree with?[/quote']

Of course. But I only use it when the FAQ violates it's own rules. For the most part, all it does is clarify and state information not in FREd. In this case, it's actually contradicting the rules for AE.

 

While I happen to agree with you, I can see why Steve made it as it is.. it'd end up as a Drain AoE where you get some points back for it.

 

Fact is Transfer only lets you do the damage for and get the points back for the number rolled on the dice - regardless of how many targets may be affected by the Transfer. You roll a 6 and you can only do 6 points of damage in total and only get 6 points in return, even if you hit 8 targets.

 

AoE Transfer does not and should not allow you to do more damage than you paid for and get more points back than you paid for. You want to remove a lot of points from someone, buy a Drain or Supress, or EB, or anything else.

 

Once you start getting into the "Get a return beyond simple damage" ie "points back to you" arena I believe you should be limited in what you get to dish out as well. I happen to agree with the FAQ and The Rules in this case. But I'm crazy like that.

Why shouldn't it? I agree you shouldn't get more points than you roll, but the points you roll should be taken from all targets in the Area. If you divide it up, you set up a precedent for dividing up any other attack, such as EB with AE. Would you think it fair for an EB 12d6 AE to only do an average of 3 BODY and 10 STUN if there are 4 targets in the area?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Why shouldn't it? I agree you shouldn't get more points than you roll' date=' but the points you roll should be taken from all targets in the Area. If you divide it up, you set up a precedent for dividing up any other attack, such as EB with AE. Would you think it fair for an EB 12d6 AE to only do an average of 3 BODY and 10 STUN if there are 4 targets in the area?[/quote']

 

First, I see your point, I agree with you to an extent.

 

But I am one of those who having watched Adjustment powers get so abused by some of the players (and the GM) around me in 4E - admittedly due to them not really reading the rule book - I fall into the draconian side of things with these powers.

 

No it's not fair to divide an EB amongst everyone. Yes AoE Transfer does seem to defy the games own built in rules, but I don't really see it as breaking the game in any way. I think if you want to remove a lot of points in a large area you should use a Drain, if you want some back link a Transfer to it to get some points returned.

 

I think I just got tired of seeing constructs based on do more than was the intention of the rules simply because they could.

 

I could also be a little to reactionary in my view - I see that - but I still don't care. That's just me.

[Stone]

Re: Help w/a power

 

I think I just got tired of seeing constructs based on do more than was the intention of the rules simply because they could.

 

It never was my intention to make a construct to sneak past anyone. Like I said, this power was going to be the only offensive ability of a character. It was designed to disable a group of people without actually hurting anyone. I see now that the construct will not work, so I will go with something simple like an area effect NND or AVLD.

 

Thanks everyone for your input =)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Why shouldn't it? I agree you shouldn't get more points than you roll' date=' but the points you roll should be taken from all targets in the Area. If you divide it up, you set up a precedent for dividing up any other attack, such as EB with AE. Would you think it fair for an EB 12d6 AE to only do an average of 3 BODY and 10 STUN if there are 4 targets in the area?[/quote']

 

I'm with Dust Raven. I wasn't aware of the changes - my group will only be changing to fifth when we start a new campaign.

 

I can see the reason for limiting the payback but not the damage to those caught in the araea effect. What advantage would I be getting for spending all those points?? I'd be better buying skill levels!

 

As for buying AE drain and linking Aid - why have transfer in the first place then? Seems silly to require the cludge when there is a better way to achieve a similar result.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help w/a power

 

As for buying AE drain and linking Aid - why have transfer in the first place then? Seems silly to require the cludge when there is a better way to achieve a similar result.

 

3d6 Transfer = 45 points and 4 END. Once 18 points have ben transferred, the power has no effect.

 

3d6 Drain + 3d6 Aid, linked (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), limited to points drained (say between -0 and -1/2; depends how common power defense is) = 42 to 45 points and 3 END, and the Drain works even if your AID is maxed out.

 

Which power would you rather pay 45 points for?

 

Now let's make it Area Effect.

 

2d6 Transfer, ranged (+1/2), 12" radius (+1 1/2) = 90 points and 9 END. The 2d6 roll is divided up between everyone in the area. Once 12 points have ben transferred, the power has no effect.

 

2d6 Drain, ranged (+1/2), 16" radius (+2) = 75 points and 7 END

 

+ 2d6 Aid, linked (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), limited to points drained (say between -0 and -1/2; depends how common power defense is) = 8 to 10

 

The 2d6 roll applies to everyone in the area and continues to apply even after the maximum 12 points have been "transferred"

 

So the present system would have me pay 5 to 7 points for a power that costs 2 more END, has a smaller radius, divides its damage among everyone in the radius and stops working entirely after I get my 12 extra points. Gee, that seems equitable! Why don't I use those points I saved to make my Drain Selective Area so I can fire it off at no risk of injuring my teammates in the area? That makes my Drain 80 points and 80 END, so I'm somewhere between even and 2 points up.

 

Frankly, I don't believe Transfer was unbalanced before, so I'd say 5th Ed hammered it pretty good. It was a ripoff in 4e as well, when that Aid only cost 5 points per die, but at least it was closer. Considering a 2d6 Transfer costs 30, and 3 END, and a 2d6 Drain with a 2d6 Self Only Linked Aid would cost the same points and 2 END, it seems like heavy overkill to also penalize the Transfer by making it useless as a Drain when the max points have been transferred.

 

PS: Guess what one of the changes I hate most in 5e is? We've long since hourse ruled away the unfairness to Transfer. It works just like a drain, except you also add the roll on the die (unless the target has power defense) to the user of the power.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Help w/a power

 

PS: Guess what one of the changes I hate most in 5e is? We've long since hourse ruled away the unfairness to Transfer. It works just like a drain' date=' except you also add the roll on the die (unless the target has power defense) to the user of the power.[/quote']

I'm of nearly the same view. I see no need to waive Transfer stops working when full though. If a player wants to go the Drain/Aid route that's fine, but the split Power has lower Active Points and is easer to Drain itself.

[Pegasus]

Re: Help w/a power

 

Oh, and FYI:

 

 

 

The problem is moot, not mute.

 

J (PsychLim: Corrects word usage, Common, Strong)

 

No no no, the problem is moo. You know, moo, as in "what would a cow think of this problem?"

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help w/a power

 

I'm of nearly the same view. I see no need to waive Transfer stops working when full though. If a player wants to go the Drain/Aid route that's fine' date=' but the split Power has lower Active Points and is easer to Drain itself.[/quote']

 

I haven't seen too many adjustment powers that target Drain or Aid (or Transfer) so I'd be inclined to take my chances.

 

And technically, the overall AP cost is greater, since you're paying 20 AP per d6, but each of the components is lower. Don't limit the Aid to the Drain's actual damage and one will work full power even if the other is reduced.