Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

[Demonsong]

I am designing a character that is a mutant energy manipulator that has had his power boosted by cybernetic implants. So I am thinking that any manipulation powers (drain, dispel, suppress...ECT) that effect mutants would obviously effect him as well as powers that effect technology (EMP, magnetic fields…ECT).

 

-1/4 Affected as a Mutant and Technology against manipulation powers

 

I am not planning on taking any power defense.

 

As an example I point to the communicator build that has a -1/4 effected by sound and radio flash.

 

So is this legitimate?

 

Thanks

[Half Baked]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

Sounds like a special effect of his powers. You might take a Disadvantage that the character is affected by powers that effect genetic mutations and technology. I would not allow a Power Limitation to your character's powers.

 

The cybernetic implants might count as IIF Focus, the same as Fiacho from CKC. That would be it in my opinion.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I agree, I don't think I'd allow this as a limitation on powers. It simply a side effect of the special effects chosen and you don't get points for choosing one side effect over another.

 

But you could get a Disadvantage out of it easily:

Distinctive Feature: Detected as both Mutant and Cyborg; Not Concealable, Always Noticed/Major Reaction, Detectable by Unusual Senses Only. 10pts.

[tesuji]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

its a valid limitation... but is it worth points?

 

while normally i would say... its part of fx" i will point out that... as a related not... there are official lims for "affected by both radio and hearing flashes" used at -1/4 (IIRC) to reflect that a radio that you have to listen to can be "taken out" by flashes from more than one sense group.

 

So, you do have to consider, are drains that affect more than one power "of given fx" that much less common in your battles than flashes vs hearing groups or radio groups?

 

For my games, at least half the adjustment powers, those actually of the "power affecting" variety are "of given fx" limited.

 

So, its a little more iffy to me than open and shut.

 

frankly, i could go either way, and the players frequency of encountering the drains would be based on whether or not i gave him points for it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

The problem with using the Radio as an example is that it is vulnerable to any special effect of flash - it's vulnerable to powers not sfx.

 

Normally you only get a limitation bonus if a power does not affect a given sfx, not if it is simply affected by several different sfx. Logically any given SFX-Power can work against your own power, regardless of it's SFX - you don't get points for being vulnerable to something as you already are inherently.

 

What you're vulnerable to or invulnerable to as defined by your SFX is a limitation on the attacking power not the defending one normally. By taking a limitation "Vulnerable as X and Y" you are making the assumption that it is invulnerable to all powers that are not X and Y which is patently untrue within the ruleset.

 

The game is made by the player stating what SFX their powers are and they get the good and bad with that - a Mutant-Cyborg is vulnerable to both Mutant affecting and Cyborg Affecting powers and will trigger vulnerabilities against both of those SFX - costs even out. You get no limitation for expanding your SFX outwards to affect more or be affected by more.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I wouldn't allow it any value beyond -0 for the same reason I wouldn't allow it as an Advantage in case of overcoming Desol or defending against NNDs.

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

What you're vulnerable to or invulnerable to as defined by your SFX is a limitation on the attacking power not the defending one normally. By taking a limitation "Vulnerable as X and Y" you are making the assumption that it is invulnerable to all powers that are not X and Y which is patently untrue within the ruleset.

 

 

I think that Ghost Angel is right. The fact is, all manipulation powers will affect your PC anyway. Stating this isn't worth any Limitation points. Saying it is a 0 point Limitation, is just another way of saying it isn't worth any points. I mean, not counting Disads, I don't see any way to make you PC more vulnerable to an attack, unless you are reducing a defense.

 

You can always take Disads, like Vulnerabilites and Susceptabilies vs mutant & cybernetic affecting technologies, which will then give you points to buy the PC's powers in the first place.

 

You mentioned that you weren't buying Power Def for this PC. If you were buying Power Defense, you could then buy a Limitation of 'Does Not Work vs. mutant & cybernetic affecting technologies' and that would be worth points.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mags

[Solomon]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I'd consider this a -0 limitation. It's just a special effect, and arguably it's going to have as many positive effects as negative effects. Consider that, if any adjustment power keyed to either mutant or technological powers can affect the character, he'll be more likely to be affected by Aid as well as Drain, Dispel and Suppress. Either way, this is unlikely to crop up very often.

[Zed-F]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

Hmm. If your technology is all based on the SFX of a particular power it is obvious you have, then you might be able to get a -1/4 for a "Drain one, drain all" limitation along the lines of what you get from an EC. Otherwise, probably it's SFX and a -0 limitation.

[Demonsong]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I point to Electro Limpet in Gadgets and Gear

25D6 dispel all electronic devices simultaneously

 

I point to the super villain The Nullifier

10D6 Suppression vs. any mutant powers one at a time

 

I point to the EMP device in the until source book

 

I point to the Mutant retraining device in the same book

 

That was my though possess. But apparently no one agrees ;(

[beauxdeigh]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I point to...[A lot of interesting gadgets. I need to buy that book!]...

 

That was my though possess. But apparently no one agrees ;(

Getting a consensus from the board is always helpful when trying to figure out what's generally acceptable. However, when it comes right down to it, whether youare submitting it for a game or publication, the only thing that matters is whether or not the person in charge approves.

 

All I know is this. If I let that 1/4 limitation slide, you'd earn it during play. Maggie the Mutant Suppressor would become a well paid mercenary for every other evil organization you'd try to interefere with. To do any less wouldn't be fair to the rest of the players.

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I point to Electro Limpet in Gadgets and Gear

25D6 dispel all electronic devices simultaneously

 

I point to the super villain The Nullifier

10D6 Suppression vs. any mutant powers one at a time

 

I point to the EMP device in the until source book

 

I point to the Mutant retraining device in the same book

 

That was my though possess. But apparently no one agrees ;(

 

Yes, The Nullfier's effect only works on mutant powers, but those are points spent on the villain's write up.

 

The mutant hero (your character) wouldn't get any extra points on his write-up based on someone else's, well, at least not on the powers side. On the Disad side, yes. In fact, it is the Disads which define what a character is usually, assuming the Disads were bought that way.

 

However, if you say your PC is a mutant and your Disads don't reflect it, then I guess the GM will still treat him as a mutant, even if you didn't take any points for it. Personally, I'd rather get the points for it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mags

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I guess it would also help if we knew what you wanted to apply the limitation to. And what type of lim, hey wait, were you talking about applying this to a gadget?

 

Mags

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I point to Electro Limpet in Gadgets and Gear

25D6 dispel all electronic devices simultaneously

 

I point to the super villain The Nullifier

10D6 Suppression vs. any mutant powers one at a time

 

I point to the EMP device in the until source book

 

I point to the Mutant retraining device in the same book

 

That was my though possess. But apparently no one agrees ;(

You should also be pointing to mutant boosters (10d6 Succor all mutant powers one at a time) and electromagnetic enhancers (Aid 6d6 all electronic devices simultaneously).

 

Plus you can get into all the cyborg only and mutant only bars!

 

If there's any true drawbacks to this aspect of your character it would be in having more than one Distinctive Feature.

 

Then again, if there simply are no mutant boosters and electromagnetic enhancers (not to mention the bars), but there are lots of negative mutant/electronic Adjustment Powers out there...it's might be worth a Limitation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I point to Electro Limpet in Gadgets and Gear

25D6 dispel all electronic devices simultaneously

 

I point to the super villain The Nullifier

10D6 Suppression vs. any mutant powers one at a time

 

I point to the EMP device in the until source book

 

I point to the Mutant retraining device in the same book

 

That was my though possess. But apparently no one agrees ;(

 

Only problem here is that Adjustment Powers (Supression, Drain, Aid, Transfer, Healing, Absorption) and Dispel are defined to work against Either a Power or a Special Effect. (Drain Energy Blast or Drain Mutant Powers - same cost on Drain, one gets only EBs but any SFX of said power the other gets all Mutant Powers regardless of what it is.)

 

You don't get a bonus to your Mutant Power because it is vulnerable to a Drain Mutant Powers. Likewise you don't have to pay an advantage for a Cyborg Power to be invulnerable to a Drain Mutant Powers.

 

That make any sense hopefully?

 

Its not that we don't agree - because your GM can rule whatever he wants, if being vulnerable to one or more types of attacks is a Limitation they want to allow more power to them - it's that you just don't get bonuses for defining your powers by a given SFX by the standard rules.

 

If we were to let people take a limitation for having their "Mutant Power" affected by powers targeted to them such as Dispel Mutant Powers then we should (on the flipside) charge people an advantage to NOT have their "Mystic Power" affected by the same Drain .. even though the Mystic Power is outside the affect of the Dispel Mutant Powers SFX.

 

By stating "My powers are all Mutant Powers" you are automatically affected by anything specifically targeting them and automatically immune to anything that specifically targets something else (such as Drain Mystic Powers). By that logic all Limitations or Advantages you could apply to define the SFX (Limiation: affected by Vs Mutant Powers; Advantage: immune to Vs Other "SFX" of Powers wher "SFX" is everything else such as Mystic/Cyborg/Alien/etc) even out completely to a big ZERO.

 

By the rules as put forth in the Fifth Edition Book you don't get to take a limitation for simply defining your powers as a specific Special Effect. Your GM may have different house rules he wants to apply.

 

After all .. if you say your powers are Mutant Powers and take a limitation and your friend says his powers are Mutant Powers and doesn't take a limitation you will both be affected by Supress Mutant Powers equally anyway.

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

After all .. if you say your powers are Mutant Powers and take a limitation and your friend says his powers are Mutant Powers and doesn't take a limitation you will both be affected by Supress Mutant Powers equally anyway.

 

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

Thank you, Ghost Angel, for putting it so clearly.

 

Mags

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

No problem .. every once in a while I have a moment of clarity. I hang onto these moments with a death grip.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

In my campaign this would be worth -1/4 -- but then I have one PC with a massive 22d6 Dispel vs technology and another with a 20d6 Dispel vs magic. Based on what I've picked up on the boards I also know that adjustment powers in general and dispels in particular are more common in my campaigns than the norm. So I can see where this wouldn't be true of every campaign.

[tesuji]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

After all .. if you say your powers are Mutant Powers and take a limitation and your friend says his powers are Mutant Powers and doesn't take a limitation you will both be affected by Supress Mutant Powers equally anyway.

 

No, you miss the point, i think.

 

he is not wanting to say "like my buddy the mutant, i am affected by adjustments keyed to my FX." and get points back for it.

 

He is wanting to say "Unlike my buddy the mutant, my power is affected by both adjustments vs mutant FX AND adjustments vs tech FX."

 

if you look at "how many drains will be able to affect me?" he has more attacks that can hit his power and affect it.

 

this is, IMO, very analogous to the flash example... where you look at sense groups instead of fx. Flashes work vs specific sense groups only. Adjustment powers we are considering, typically, work against specific FX only.

 

Its valid within the rules and examples to take -1/4 for "hit by radio and hearing flashes" because that "doubles" if you will the number of flashes that can take down the sense powers. Sure, the attacks are rather rare, but thats why its only -1/4.

 

It seems to me equally valid to take -1/4 for "adjustment vs FX" for the exact same reason. He will be attackable by "twice" as many of those type of attacks as his mutant partner who did not take the "extra FX" thing.

 

-1/4: affected by flashes of either of two non-targetting sense groups.

-1/4: affected by adjustments keyed to either of two common FX types

 

those two do not seem all that disparate to me.

 

I gotta say, i would be very hesitant in any supers game i have ran to tell three characters, one who powers were tech based and thus affected by tech keyed drains and such (which are fairly common), one who was a mutant who was affected by mutant keyed drains and stuff (somewhat common, not as common as the tech one), and one who was a hybrid whose powers were affected by both of those types, that they were of equal value.

 

Why?

 

Well in scenarios highlighting the mutants, i would tend to have on occasion anti-mutant powewrs running around... the mutie and the hybrid guy would be adversly impacted by this while the techie would be happy.

 

In scenarios highlighting tech stuff, i would likely have anti-tech stuff running round and this would adversely effect the hybrid guy and the tech guy but the mutie would be shining!

 

these would not be uncommon.

 

hybrid guy would get hammered in both cases. Each of the others would have their good days and their bad days.

 

sure, if these were less common FX, i might be less inclined. But i gotta say, these are reasonably common ones. I would expect this to show up rather frequently.

 

As an exercise, it might be interesting to look thru Champions, CU and maybe even CCK and see how many adjustment attacks will affect mutant boy, tech boy and mut-tech boy and see if there is a significant increase in "how many of these guys can get to my powers." This might give you a benchmark for "how frequent is this going to crop up?"

 

At the same time, run the same numbers for "radio sense flash", "hearing sense flash", and "radio or hearing sense flash" which we already know to be worth -1/4.

 

of course, any specific campaign will vary but these give us the only benchmarks we have for comparisons.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I don't miss the point at all. Let me try it this way.

 

Mutant-Tech guy will be affected by Anti-Mutant and Anti-Tech stuff, Pro-Mutant and Pro-Tech stuff and be more effective AGAINST those who are suspectible to Mutant and Tech stuff.

 

You don't get a bonus by simply expanding what you SFX cover because you still take on the GOOD and BAD of all the sfx you have.

 

The "affected by Radio and Sound Flash" is a limitation because it becomes susepctible to two POWERS .. not sfx of those powers.

 

Here's the deal - if it's limiting in your campaign give the -1/4 Limitation.

 

By standard rules there are enough equally balancing reasons that SFX do not net you a bonus.

 

to expand my earlier quote insert whatever SFX you want.

 

1)If player one has Ice-Wind guy with a limitation and player two has Ice-Wind guy without a limitation they are both affected by Drain Ice, Drain Wind or Drain Ice-Wind equally either way.

2)If you buy Radio Headset as Radio Perception without a limitation a Hearing Flash guy CANNOT affect it by the rules (leaving drama out of it), if you buy the Radio Headset as Radio Perception with the limitation "affected by Radio and Hearing Flash" then the guy with Hearing Flash CAN affect it.

 

In 1 you define any number of powers as a type of SFX and they take on all suseptabilities and strengths of that SFX.

In 2 you define a specific power which is normally only affected by a specific power and expand that powers that it affected by. Without the limitation a Hearing Flash will not affect a Radio Perception power by the rules unless if takes a limitation to allow that.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

You don't get a bonus by simply expanding what you SFX cover because you still take on the GOOD and BAD of all the sfx you have.

Or to put in another way, if you get the good stuff too, it isn't a Limitations. If you don't get the good stuff, then it's a Limitation.

 

Using Sense Groups and Sensory Powers is a very poor example. There isn't any reverse to Flash or Darkness. There no Anti-Flash that makes you sense better. With Adjustment Powers, there is Aid, Healing, Absorbtion, Succor and Transfer that can all be benificial, equal to the number than can be harmful.

 

But like I said, if you don't have any benificial Adjustment Powers in this campaign it could be a valid Limitation, in my humble opinion. But only if.

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

I wonder if we are all on the same page here. I think the confusion is from the title of this thread: "Is this a legitimate disadvantage?"

 

But the given example looks like a limitation to me. In fact, I thought the title was "Is this a legitimate limitation?" originally. (Did it change?)

 

 

-1/4 Affected as a Mutant and Technology against manipulation powers

 

 

Regarding the title question, "Can these be legitimate disadvantages?" The answer is yes, if you change the wording to:

 

DF: Affected as a Mutant and Technology against manipulation powers.

 

Can the character be detected as both? Yes. Is it worth more points than just being affected by one or the other? Yes.

 

But I think all the confusion and subsequent discussion was due to the fraction shown in the example. There aren't any fractions in the Disad section, so I think people are looking at the question as "Is this a legitimate limitation?"

 

Anyway, enough rambling from me...

 

Cheers,

 

Mags

[ghost-angel]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

That's how I took it, as "Is this a ligitimate Limitation" since the original post had it as a -1/4 and not as a Disadvantage.

 

I often see people use Limitation and Disadvantage interchangebly and look for the context they are mentioned. If you say -1/4 I'll assume you are trying to apply a Limitation to a power not a Disadvantage to a character.

 

And .. simply because I'm really good at not only flogging a dead horse but crushing the bones to dust:

 

The original post cited "Affected by Radio and Hearing Flash" as a Limitation on a Radio construct as the reasoning behind taking "Affected as Mutant and Tech" to a power.

 

Here's some different radios:

 

Handset Radio

Radio Perception/Transmit, OAF, Affected as Radio and Hearing Flash

 

VTT [Voice To Text] Radio

Radio Perception/Transmit, OAF, Affected as Radio and Sight Flash

 

CyberNanite-Radio (built into the characters skull inside the ear)

Radio Perception/Transmit

---

Radio Perception is only affected by Radio Flashes by default, all other Flash Attacks are inherently useless against Radio Perception. To simulate the you need to also Listen to a Handset Radio you can say it can be Hearing Flashed as well as it translates Radio Signals to Voice Signals. To simulate that you need to be able to Read a VTT Radio you say it will be affected by Sight Flash as well as it you need to see the screen the Text comes up on. But that guy with the built in CyberNanite-Radio can hear the radio if he is both blinded and deafened and thus gets no limitation for being affected by other Flashes as it is not be default.

 

You can only take a Limitation to be affected by a certain Special Effect or Power if you are inherently immune to the power to begin with. Since you are not inherently immune to anything in the game you can't take limitations to reflect that you are affected by something that already affects you anyway.

 

Dust Raven has given a situation in which you could take such a limitation - ie there are no ways of ever being able to boost your power, and to take it a step further, no one in the campaign is vulnerable to your power SFX OR that such possibilities don't even exist and will never exist in the campaign. If you want to outlaw Aid Mutant Powers then fine, but you start closing off the game at that point.

 

If that doesn't make sense as to why it is not a legitimate limitation then oh well, do whatever you want - it's your game after all. The question was asked, the answer was given.

[Magmarock]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

That's how I took it, as "Is this a ligitimate Limitation" since the original post had it as a -1/4 and not as a Disadvantage.

 

I often see people use Limitation and Disadvantage interchangebly and look for the context they are mentioned. If you say -1/4 I'll assume you are trying to apply a Limitation to a power not a Disadvantage to a character.

 

 

I agree with you, Ghost-Angel (and I thought we were talking about Limitations too, at first, for the same reason).

 

My last post was just me wanting to be sure our original poster knew the difference. It was a little muddy, wordwise. I was hoping to get some clarification from Demonsong but I think that you answered his question more than adequately, so there is no need now.

 

Cheers,

 

Mags

[tesuji]

Re: Is this a legitimate disadvantage?

 

You can only take a Limitation to be affected by a certain Special Effect or Power if you are inherently immune to the power to begin with. Since you are not inherently immune to anything in the game you can't take limitations to reflect that you are affected by something that already affects you anyway.

I disagree.

 

first off, in some of the cases you mentioned above, the character was not completely immune. He would be affected by a noise flash and a sight flash. So its worthwhile to throw those at him. The limitation says that IN ADDITION to the effects normally given, he also loses his radio.

 

Counter this too... i am a mutant. if all my powers have mutant FX, I **am** immune to adjustment powers which are of the type "powers of tech FX". The -1/4 limitation is to change that, drop that immunity.

 

Flash, by definition, has a limited number of sense groups.

adjustkment powers, commonly, have a limited FX defined as well.

 

Dust Raven has given a situation in which you could take such a limitation - ie there are no ways of ever being able to boost your power, and to take it a step further, no one in the campaign is vulnerable to your power SFX OR that such possibilities don't even exist and will never exist in the campaign. If you want to outlaw Aid Mutant Powers then fine, but you start closing off the game at that point.

I would argue its not that cut and dried.

 

if my campaign is going to use anit-mutant powers and anti-tech powers as part of its challenges, perhapsgenopcide is a primary antagonist or perhaps the character's hunteds are tech guys... that provides the deficit part of the limitation. How much should it be? That depends on how frequently the Gm plans to use them.

 

The counter to it is also "how much of a benefit will he gain from AID and SUCCOR and the like?"

 

If the estimate for the campaign is "about as much" then its a +0. I might consider this to be the case evening out if a regularly occuring friendly NPC had the powers so that the PC could reliably call on those powers about as often as he meets the foes with the counter.

 

If the party contains a PC who is going to have the powers... i would actually consider this an advantage.

 

but, if the party did not have access, reliable or common, to the aid/succor of the right FX... i would consider expanding the powers to be hit by two common FXs worth of attacks to be a limitation.

 

its kind of like the notion of "uses dex to hit instead of ego"... its really going to be campaign dependent and character dependent as to whether this is a penalty, an advantage or not... based on the relative frequency and availability of the attack forms and the beneficial forms.

 

 

If that doesn't make sense as to why it is not a legitimate limitation then oh well, do whatever you want - it's your game after all. The question was asked, the answer was given.

 

Again, i think it is valid, but it will be campaign dependent.

 

i could even see it as an advantage.

 

In the majority of the HERo games i have run... which frankly saw Aids as rare on PCs and where reliable access to boosting powers was just not a common occurance, expanding to take in anti-tech effects as well as anti-mutant effects would have been a net overall problem.

 

Maybe this weekend, i will look at the characters from Champions, CU and maybe even CCK to see how many have attack powers that would be keyed by this lim, how many have boosting powers that would be keyed by this lim, and get an idea for what the relative comparison for "standard" games would be. maybe there are as many aids as drains, suppresses as succors and it would balance out for games using the stock characters with even distributions.