Once more in English, please?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

I've studied heraldry fairly extensively (more from a descriptive POV, than historical - after all, I did it for the sake of my own fantasy role-playing, not academics), and they look great to me!

 

I don't recall the description of the Keldravian arms, but I'll try my hand an "blazoning" what you've got there:

 

Pean*, a chevron cotised gules

 

Is that what it's supposed to be? If so, then you got it right!

 

* I always get the various ermine variants confused. I remember that Ermine is black on white, and the three others are black on yellow, white on black, and yellow on black, and they're called Ermines, Erminois, and Pean, not necessarily respectively.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Not exactly as described in the book, but yes, you got it.

[LordSkatterhawk]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

The shields-- or blazons if I am using my context clues to absorb some heraldry terms-- depicted on this thread are wonderful. I appreciate the hard work and sharing of knowledge that they represent. I've never been a student of heraldry so the terminology is slightly confusing due to its technical nature. Nevertheless, I have gathered substantial benefits to my fantasy (and Middle Ages) knowledge. Society sure wasn't simpler in those days.

 

I just wanted to put in a note of thanks for those out there who expand my knowledge and descriptive power. If I were to use a recently devised slang phrase, I would say "You guys rock on toast!" On that note, does anyone know of a good introduction to heraldry on the net or in published form?

 

Thanks Guys and Gals,

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

The shields-- or blazons if I am using my context clues to absorb some heraldry terms-- depicted on this thread are wonderful. I appreciate the hard work and sharing of knowledge that they represent. I've never been a student of heraldry so the terminology is slightly confusing due to its technical nature. Nevertheless, I have gathered substantial benefits to my fantasy (and Middle Ages) knowledge. Society sure wasn't simpler in those days.

 

I just wanted to put in a note of thanks for those out there who expand my knowledge and descriptive power. If I were to use a recently devised slang phrase, I would say "You guys rock on toast!" On that note, does anyone know of a good introduction to heraldry on the net or in published form?

 

Thanks Guys and Gals,

 

Emblazons actually, but that's the joy of learning a new specialty language, eh?

You Emblazon (draw/construct) a Blazon (device).

I'm not that good at it myself... I remember the colors and the common terms and a few of the basic rules (Metal to color, color to metal), but would have had no chance of emblazoning the device that started the thread without references. My Pendragon days were MANY moons ago

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

The shields-- or blazons if I am using my context clues to absorb some heraldry terms-- depicted on this thread are wonderful. I appreciate the hard work and sharing of knowledge that they represent. I've never been a student of heraldry so the terminology is slightly confusing due to its technical nature. Nevertheless, I have gathered substantial benefits to my fantasy (and Middle Ages) knowledge. Society sure wasn't simpler in those days.

 

I just wanted to put in a note of thanks for those out there who expand my knowledge and descriptive power. If I were to use a recently devised slang phrase, I would say "You guys rock on toast!" On that note, does anyone know of a good introduction to heraldry on the net or in published form?

 

Thanks Guys and Gals,

 

The SCA link shown earlier was pretty handy to me. Wiki also has some stuff on it if you type in specific heraldry terms.

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

I took a hasty stab at Szarvasia

"Tawny, with flanches of purple, charged witha double headed black eagle middle chief"

Tawny, I've decided, is a pain in the butt to narrow down. Seems the UK considers it orange, where as continental Europe denotes it more orange brown.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Emblazons actually, but that's the joy of learning a new specialty language, eh?

You Emblazon (draw/construct) a Blazon (device).

 

Isn't that how he was using the term?

 

Keith "v.Emblazon, n.Blazon" Curtis

[Shaft]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

For the record, I like the balance that exists between easy to use English and correct terminolgy. My grades would have been way better if I had had more gaming books of today's quality when I was still in high school. Who knows, I might have gone into the Sciences if GURPS Math had ever been written.

 

On that note, given the easy access that the Internet provides, it's nice to see gaming books getting more techincal. The Heraldry terminology is very educational and adds that much more detail.

[Curufea]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Let us not forget http://www.heraldica.org

[keithcurtis]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

The language of heraldry holds a particular annoyance for me: it ruined the ending of "The Scarlet Letter". Way back in high school, I had no idea what "On a field sable, the letter 'A', gules" meant. Nothing like making the last line of the book a puzzle.

Oh well, it at least prompted me to go find out what it meant. And back then, we didn't have your fancy shmancy search engines and intarweb forums. We had to do it the old fashioned way and go to the library or ask a teacher. That's right you whippersnappers. If we didn't get off our butts and do the legwork, we lived in squalid ignorance! And we liked it!

 

Keith "curmudgeon" Curtis

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

The language of heraldry holds a particular annoyance for me: it ruined the ending of "The Scarlet Letter". Way back in high school, I had no idea what "On a field sable, the letter 'A', gules" meant. Nothing like making the last line of the book a puzzle.

Oh well, it at least prompted me to go find out what it meant. And back then, we didn't have your fancy shmancy search engines and intarweb forums. We had to do it the old fashioned way and go to the library or ask a teacher. That's right you whippersnappers. If we didn't get off our butts and do the legwork, we lived in squalid ignorance! And we liked it!

 

Keith "curmudgeon" Curtis

 

What's "curmudgeon" mean? Oh wait..

*googles it*

 

Got it, thanks.

 

[keithcurtis]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

What's "curmudgeon" mean? Oh wait..

*googles it*

 

Got it, thanks.

 

See? Fat! Fat and lazy! You punks got it too easy!

 

Keith "why, I oughta..." Curtis

[Curufea]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Shhh!

Quiet in the library.

[Steve Long]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Steve... COOL! Do I get some kind of geek-cred? LOL

 

You can take 2 XP out of petty cash. Spend them wisely.

[Steve Long]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Please keep in mind, of course, that my use of heraldic terminology in TA isn't necessarily 100% accurate, and I blithely ignore some of the established rules of convention when it suits me. After all, we have better color processing these days.

 

And for the record, when I use "tawny" I usually mean orange-brown or dull orange, not true orange.

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

 

And for the record, when I use "tawny" I usually mean orange-brown or dull orange, not true orange.

Whew...

You may have prevented the blinding of dozens, nay, hundreds of unnamed NPC heralds and tourney goers.

 

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Please keep in mind' date=' of course, that my use of heraldic terminology in TA isn't necessarily 100% accurate, and I blithely ignore some of the established rules of convention when it suits me.[/quote']

Which you are perfectly entitled to do. I think you made the right choice in selecting clarity over historical accuracy of nomenclature. Many of the terms are French, and France doesn't exist in Ambrethel, so there's no requirement that the heraldry terms have to be the same. Those who want to know what the crest looks like will, and those who want to know the excruciatingly correct blazoning terms, can easily figure them out.

 

BTW, it is worth noting that even historical heraldry didn't always obey its own "rules". The coat of arms for the city of Jerusalem is: "Argent, a cross potent between four crosslets or." That is, gold on silver (yellow on white). Normally, you're not supposed to put a metal on another metal, but they made an exception in this case.

[Choldath]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Here's a good one.

 

http://www.yourchildlearns.com/heraldry.htm

[Basil]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Emblazons actually, but that's the joy of learning a new specialty language, eh?

You Emblazon (draw/construct) a Blazon (device).

More exactly: an emblazon is the "picture", the blazon is the verbal description. As verbs, to emblazon means to make the "picture," to blazon means to verbally describe. Thus, one might emblazon a blazon, or blazon an emblazon.

 

I'm not that good at it myself... I remember the colors and the common terms and a few of the basic rules (Metal to color' date=' color to metal), but would have had no chance of emblazoning the device that started the thread without references. My Pendragon days were MANY moons ago [/quote']

I, OTOH, keep up with heraldry, being interested in both the SCA's take on it, and historical heraldry.

 

BTW, yes, tawny {heraldically called tenne} is supposed to be brownish orange. Certianly not the Day-glo orange on road-workers' vests.

 

If anyone in is interested in learning more about heraldry, and wishes to go beyond the basic stuff covered inthe various links, I think the best book on the subject, especially for the beginner, is Shield and Crest, by Julian Franklyn. While some may suggest other works, this one is, IME, the only one that conveys the sheer enjoyment that heraldry can bring. Other authors, especially Fox-Davies, turn a living, breathing, exciting subject into mummy dust.

 

As for the terminology Steve used in TA, I'm afraid I do not like it in the least. To quote the above work:

Those who attempt to describe (blazon) a coat of arms without [heraldic language's] strict employment.... They are deaf to euphony' date=' blind to beauty, and their rejection of the correct terms, carried to its logical conclusion, will reduce the noble phrases to the banal and the vulgar: 'a bottle-green shield with a silver stripe across the middle, and a couple of yellow thingumajigs in each top corner, and a sort of what's-a-name down the bottom'.[/quote']

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

So, anyone else willing to take some stabs at more Blazons of the TA?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

More exactly: an emblazon is the "picture", the blazon is the verbal description. As verbs, to emblazon means to make the "picture," to blazon means to verbally describe. Thus, one might emblazon a blazon, or blazon an emblazon.

 

Thanks for explaining in nice clear terms what I was trying to say

[Basil]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

So' date=' anyone else willing to take some stabs at more Blazons of the TA?[/quote']

 

Certainly! Glad to.

 

BTW, in the following, a long underline (____) indicates a missing tincture (color), while four x's (XXXX) indicates other missing information (what's missing will be noted in parentheses following the blazon). "Missing" in the sense the original does not convey certain information needed for a complete blazon.

 

Elvenholme: Or, a mullet of 12 points azure between two antlers XXXX gules. (The orientation is not given. I suppose they are "upright," rather than the default horizontal.)

 

The Mhendarian Palatinate: Vert, a castle argent (The description given in TA is of the default heradic castle; as it's the default, the blazon need not describe it further.)

 

Vestria: Azure, a dragon rampant or.

 

Aarn: Per pale, ____ a scroll and a coin XXXX ____, and vert a garb or. (Firstly, "brown" is not a recognized tincture in UK nor French heraldry, though I think it might be in German. In any case, I'm not sure how to blazon it. Secondly, the positions and tinctures of the scroll and the coin are not given. I will hazard the guess the scroll is towards the top and the coin towards the bottom of their half of the shield. In that case, the blazon becomes "Per pale, in pale a scroll ____ and a coin ____, and vert a garb.")

 

Keldravia: Pean, a chevron cotised gules

 

Khirkovy: Gules, a mountain cat passant gardant ____, a bordure quarterly or and sable. (In heraldry, AFAICT, this is hyphenated as mountain-cat; the more common term by far, though, is catamount. Still, "mountain cat" is not wrong. However, the "guardant" of the orginal is wrong; the word is not related to "guard," but to "regard.")

 

Mezendria: Gules, a griffon statant within a tressure surmounted by three suns in their spendor or. (Note that a blazon will not name the tincture of each indvidual part, if it can [as here] give the color once after a list of objects.)

 

Mircasëa: Per fess dancetty gules, and sable two spears in saltire or.

 

Szarvasia: Tenne, two flaunches purpure, in chief a double-headed eagle XXXX sable. (The position of the eagle isn't given, but "displayed" is almost certainly intended. Note that "flanches" is an acceptable alternate spelling.)

 

Tharnrek: Gules, a trollish war hammer XXXX ____. (Both the orientation and color of the hammer are missing. BTW, "trollish" could be dropped from the blazon; it's doubtful it looks that much different from any other war hammer.)

 

Thurgandia: Or, a chevron between three dragons rampant azure.

 

Umbr: Per pale, checky or and sable, and gules a gauntlet XXXX ____. (Grey is not a recognized tincture in UK heraldry, but it is in French and German. OTOH, "proper," which means the ordinary "real" color of an object, is perfect for this, since a gauntlet, supposedly of steel, would be gray naturally. Thus, I feel the "____" can be changed to "proper." The orientation of the gauntlet is still unknown, though.)

 

Basidrun: Or, a dexter drakine hand XXXX ____. (Orientation is unknown; "opened out" is unclear. As to tincture, as with Umbr, this is probably "proper".)

 

Vendrigal: Per pale, barry of six or and sable, and XXXX. (I have no idea what's meant by the "dragon's-scale.")

 

Khorrin: Azure, a Drakine star or.

 

Seldrion: Argent, a demi-drakine ____ maintaining a spear in each hand. (This assumes the deim-drakine, if whole, would be rampant. If any other positoin is desired, it must be blazoned.)

 

Celbaria: Argent, two chevrons purpure.

 

Hanoreth: Tenne, fretty azure.

 

Navrostel: Purpure, a lion rampant or.

 

Sarkund: Argent, a hand pouring wine from a goblet ____. (I'm not satisfied with this blazon, as there may be a term for this position, or at least for the act of pouring, but I don't want to take the time to hunt down something so recondite.)

 

Sarreshar: Or, a chevron vert between three bunches of grapes ____. (Most likely the grapes are "proper.")

 

Tatha Gorel: Argent, in chief a dragon couchant azure and in base an anchor ____. (NB: there is no "white" in heraldry [except for one, highly recondite exception]; "argent," although derived from the Latin for silver, is depicted as white [save in very fancy documents and paintings, where it might be depicted as silver].)

 

Tornath: ____, three ships XXXX ____. ("Light blue" is not a heraldic color in UK heraldry, though I believe it is in French and perhaps in German. The positions and color(s) of the ships are unknown.)

 

Valicia: Per saltire or and sable, a chain XXXX in chief ____. (What is the arrangement of the chain? As with the gauntlet above, the tincture is likely "proper.")

 

Ingushel: ____, a bull's head caboshed ____. (The tincture of both the field and the charge are unknown.)

 

The Sirrenic Empire: Argent, a blood eagle displayed ____. (By any chance is this meant to be "proper"?)

 

Tavrosel: ____, a tower ____ entwined of lyoth ____. ("Entwined of" is, I believe, the correct phrasing. "----ed of" this, that, and the other is common usage in heraldry.)

 

Thalera-Saar: ____, a Valician hill-wolf XXXX ____. (No tinctures, no positions. Not much to work with. As mentioned once before, one could easily drop the specification on the wolf, as depictions are unlikely to be different from the ordinary "wolf.")

 

Tyradnium: Or, a redbird ____ within an orle gules. ("Dusky gold" isn't a heradlic tincture at all. "Redbird" is a kind of critter, so its tincture still needs to be specified.)

 

Arutha: This one defeats me from the beginning. Is "cartouche" supposed to be a charge? Because blazon does NOT specify the shape of the "shield" the emblazon is on, it ought to be a charge. However, a coat of arms should NOT be a "snapshot" of a coat of arms, which cartouche-as-charge makes it. OTOH, if we ignore "cartouche," we have the problem of "blue dragon's scales": are these an unspecified number of discrete objects, or some sort of over-all pattern?

 

Besruhan: Azure, three flying fish argent.

 

Hrastarin: Vert, two lions combatant gules.

 

Nurenthia: ____, a jiruma-flower ____.

 

-----Sorry, something came up I have to deal with immediately. I'll finish this next time I'm online.

[Hermit]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Ack, my bad. I meant anyone else want to emblazon (Draw, doodle, or clip) a few more, but I admit to being in awe of Basil's heraldric skills.

[Basil]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

Ack' date=' my bad. I meant anyone else want to emblazon (Draw, doodle, or clip) a few more, but I admit to being in awe of Basil's heraldric skills.[/quote']

 

I thought that might be what you meant, but I decided to base my actions on what you said.

 

I might emblazon them all, IF I had the various pieces I'd need already scanned in. However, I don't, and I don't have the time to do so.

[Basil]

Re: Once more in English, please?

 

OK, here's the rest of the blazons.

 

Sedrosa: ____, a dolphin XXXX ____. ("Leaping" is not only not a heraldic term, but I'm not positive what is intended. If it's a dolphin broaching, that is, leaping out of the water, it could be blazoned "...a dolphin embowed in bend ____ issuant from waves of water in base ____.")

 

Temirec: ____, a hresha ____ statant.

 

Velkara: Argent, a gauntlet XXXX azure. (NB: clenched is the default position for a gauntlet. The question is, is the orientation palewise [up and down] or fesswise [horizontal]?)

 

Vashkhor: ____, a sun ____ between the Twin Birds respecting in orle ____. (I'm not sure "respecting in orle" is either correct or sufficient, but I can't come up with anything better.)

 

Ashurna: ____, the Twisted Pine ____. (I suspect it's "proper".)

 

Khepras: Gules, three crows XXXX ____. (The arrangement and color aren't given. I suspect it should be "...crows, two and one, sable.")

 

Shar: Or, seven masks XXXX purpure. (The arrangement isn't given, and no arrangement occurs to me as assumable.)

 

Sorinsarsoun: ____, an ironwood leaf ____. (I wonder if the ironwood leaf is so distinctive in shape that the blazon couldn't be reduced to "a leaf".)

 

Vûran: ____, seven towers XXXX ____. (The arrangement isn't given. Note that the tincture might be gules, but there is a tincture [little used in British heraldry] called sanguine. It is a very dark red, perhaps slightly purplish; it is also known as mulberry. This might better fit the "crimson" of the original.)

 

Devyldra: ___, a lion XXXX sable. (The usual position of lions is rampant, but I don't know if that's the case here.)

 

Eltirian: ____, a heptagon purpure.

 

Halathaloorm: ____, a jaruma fish ____.

 

Kurum-Sathiri: ____, a tower sable amid flames of fire ____. (Flames of fire are highly stylized, and when blazoned proper are alternately or and gules, which I suspect is what's intended here.)

 

Talarshand: (No idea. Does this mean they do not use a shield-like shape to display the arms, but only show them on a banner? Or is the object on the shield-like shape a picture of a flag? And "green and yellow" says nothing about the shape(s) in use, etc., etc. I can't blazon this one, sorry.)

 

Zhor Cacimar: ____, a sword palewise, point to base, ____. ("silver-blue" might mean "steel-colored," in which case it can be blazoned proper.)

 

Thûn: ____, flames of fire sable.

 

Keshman: ____, a daho ____. (You might get away with a lymphad, the typical heraldic ship.)

 

Korem-Var: Purpure, three serpents XXXX or. (While in British heraldry the serpent is usually met with tied in a loose figure-eight knot [blazoned "(k)nowed,"] I have no idea how to blazon serpents tied to each other. "...serpents nowed together or" is possible, but I am hesitant to suggest it.)

 

Halore: ____, six pujana flowers, three two and one, ____. (BTW, this would be the usual arrangement of six objects, as it best fits the shape of the shield.)

 

Malegyon: ____, a tiger's paw erased in pale ____, within a garland of halama leaves ____. (BTW, the heraldic tiger [more often spelled tyger] does not look anything like the zoological tiger. If that is what you want, it is blazoned "a Bengal tiger," and must be "proper," that is, in its natural orange-and-black coloration.)

 

Neshara: ____, a sotal rampant gules.

 

Orumbar: ____, two XXXX Drakine hands XXXX clasped ____. (Are the hands both right hands? If so, the first "XXXX" should be replaced with "dexter." The orientation of the hands isn't specified, but is probably "fesswise." I'm not sure clasped hands are blazoned quite this way. Are the hands, sans any part of the arm, intended? If not, "hands" should be replaced with [i assume] "cubit arms" and "clasped" with "the hands clasped.")

 

Thon-Sa: ____, a Thona archway ____. (Unless truly distinctive, it could be blazoned simply as an archway. "In gold and brown" gives me no idea of how the colors are distributed, so I can't blazon the tinctures of the object.)

 

Thrayshara: ____, a falcon volant _____ holding a crown in its beak ____.

 

Vendiya: ____, a conch shell or.

 

Brabantia: Or, a bear XXXX proper. (The zoological bear's way of standing upright does not quite conform to any heraldic position. In this case it could be blazoned as rampant, which is upright alright, but not the position I suspect is meant. I have seen "erect" in one place, but I'm not sure if that was intended as a blazon, or merely used descriptively.)

 

Dragosani: ____, XXXX a wyvern XXXX vert and XXXX a tree ____, conjoined of a chain ____. (The wyvern is probably "in dexter" and the tree "in sinister," though they should be blazoned as such [or wherever they are located]. I'm not happy with "conjoined of a chain," but cannot suggest any other blazon. If the wyvern is depicted as having a collar [rather than having the chain wrapped directly around its neck], it should be blazoned as "collared" and the tincture of the collar specified.)

 

Ostravia: ____, three foxes courant ____.

 

Shularahaleen: ____, an elven bow and arrow in full draught XXXX ____. (It is necessary to say whether the bow is horizontal or vertical, and on which side the string is.)

 

Sitheria: ____, three finches argent. OR ____, three silver-finches ____. (It's not clear if the original means finches, colored "silver," or if it refers to a creature called the "silver-finch." [Not to be confused with the silverfish.])

 

Vanerof: Tenne, a bend cotised purpure, in sinister chief an eagle displayed sable.

 

Azarthond: ____, two dwarven axes in saltire ____. (Unless dwarven axes look very much unlike all other axes, it's not necessary to mention them in the blazon. They are probably "proper.")

 

Eldrasan: ____, a calopus rampant ____.

 

Heltica: Erminois, a bordure azure.

 

Karellia: Vert, two stags counter-salient ____, the dexter(?) attired or, the sinister(?) attired argent. (I'm guessing which stag has which color of antlers.)

 

Khrisulia: Per pale, barry gules and argent, and sable billety or. (I think this is what's meant: "Per pale and barry red and white..." might be mean "barry gules and argent, per pale counterchanged...", but the rest of the original then becomes meaningless. BTW, "a semy" is incorrect, the term is simply "semi"---which is not needed in this instance because "semi of billets" is called "billety". On a second reading, I'm not sure of the blazon after all: the part that goes "charged with" indicates some object in the arms should have the following object(s) placed upon it. This, however, makes no sense when followed by "a semy on billets gold on black." WHAT is colored black???)

 

Rosskeld: Argent, on a fess azure, three XXXX gules. ("Shells," by itself, is not sufficient for heraldry. Shells of what should be specified; note, though, that if the typical "scallop shells" [such as used by Shell Oil] are intended, they're blazoned "escallops"---not "escallop shells," but "escallops.")

 

Teretheim: ____, a wolf XXXX ____ holding a crown in its mouth ____.

 

Turakia: (A) Sable a wolf's head XXXX ____. ( Gules a lantern sable. (The wolf's head may be either gules or sanguine. See Vûran for more on sanguine.)