Interstellar communications

[Adventus]

What do you use for interstellar communications in your campaigns?

 

I am not looking for stats. Those are easy. I am looking for descriptions and the effect they have on the campaign setting.

 

In my campaign, there is no hyperspace radio. You can't talk to somebody in another star system in real time. Interstellar communications is done via the Hyper-torp. It is basically a missile with memory chips installed instead of explosives. It takes 3 days to travel either way. Nothing organic can survive the trip. It would come out as pre-protoplasmic goo, only usable by genetic researchers as a growth medium. They generally have a small cavity you can put items to send to another person. They also have a transmitter that goes off when they arrive to let people know that it is out there.

 

This means you have to operate mainly on your own, without guidance from HQ. This means that Military units operate with a high level of autonomy. This can make for some very interesting adventures. It also makes needing a decision from HQ take a very long time.

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Three days to travel? from to, where to? or does it have a fixed travel duration, no matter how far it goes?

[Adventus]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Three days to travel? from to, where to? or does it have a fixed travel duration, no matter how far it goes?

 

It has a fixed travel duration no matter the distance. It is traveling the higher dimensions which are extremely short. Most of the 3 days are getting to the transit point. They can only enter hyperspace a sufficient distance from a gravity source.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

The campaign I ran went through the emergence of FTL communications and travel. Without going into the nuts and bolts, FTL communications required a nearby significant mass (ie. large satellite or higher) on both ends. It consumed huge amounts of power as well. Governments could communicate from planet to planet, or from star to star (with relay stations in shielded low solar orbits). The amount of information was extremely limited as well.

You could send the equivalent of plain text messages in-system, and just a few bits between stars.

 

Basically this meant that all FTL messages were very official or critical messages. Corporations could afford them, but most private individuals had to rely on radio. The starship (there was only one, a prototype on a desperate mission to save mankind) was very independent. They could send and receive only from a short list of prearranged signals (64 possible messages either way--8 bits)

 

Keith "I ignored the paradox of FTL anything" Curtis

[Agemegos]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

It has a fixed travel duration no matter the distance. It is traveling the higher dimensions which are extremely short. Most of the 3 days are getting to the transit point. They can only enter hyperspace a sufficient distance from a gravity source.

 

Why not leave the communications drone out beyond the gravity limit when you come in? Then send a radio signal to it containing the message and navigation instructions. It then goes directly into hyperspace where it is, and on arrival it uses a maser to general a signal that will travel at lightspeed to the destination? That's the way they do things in my SF setting.

 

In my setting the point at which you activate your jump drive determines the point at which you arrive, and any uncertainty in your origin with is multiplied by a large ratio to produce uncertainty in your destination. With typically only a 500mm objective in their navigating telescopes, signal drones cannot navigate accurately enough to count on arriving in the departure zone for a return trip (indeed, under some geometries a one-jump return is not possible). They are built with motors and computers to get them back on station, but there can be delays of hundreds of hours. SOP is to leave one at your departure point, and then when you arrive at the edge of the gravity well, launch another programmed to take itself to a return point and await instructions. That way you get one rapid report to HQ, and one rapid reply. And then you might have to wait a week before you can send another signal home. That keeps HQ off your back.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

I use Quantum Radios (secure, Instantaneous communications regardless of distance or even dimension. Based of real world physics (quantum particle pairing) FTL communications are more likely to be invented long before starship FTL travel will. Real world experiments into quantum radios have been inconclusive as of yet because they can't separate the particles far enough apart to be able measure any lag (quantum theory predicts no lag). The good new is that Interstellar banking and wireless highspeed Internet is more of a reality long before we reach the first star.

 

Quantum Radio: Mind Link, Specific Group of Minds, Any dimension, No LOS needed, Number of Minds (x16) (50 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1). Total cost: 25 points.

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

I use Quantum Radios (secure, Instantaneous communications regardless of distance or even dimension. Based of real world physics (quantum particle pairing) FTL communications are more likely to be invented long before starship FTL travel will. Real world experiments into quantum radios have been inconclusive as of yet because they can't separate the particles far enough apart to be able measure any lag (quantum theory predicts no lag). The good new is that Interstellar banking and wireless highspeed Internet is more of a reality long before we reach the first star.

 

Quantum Radio: Mind Link, Specific Group of Minds, Any dimension, No LOS needed, Number of Minds (x16) (50 Active Points); Only With Others Who Have Mind Link (-1). Total cost: 25 points.

This would work through quantum entanglement, right? You can't transmit information through such a link. And even if you could, you'd be sending messages into the past.

[Guest LordZarglif]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Oh, and regarding the Hyper-torp: if it's 3 days to ANY where, then they could send probes ANYwhere, out to the most distant galaxies. Would this be in flavor for your setting?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

I did one once based on modulating the emissions from an FTL drive. The FTL drive runs at a speed of 1 light year per week; transmissions travel one light year per second, with decent signal within about 200 light years (thus a network of retransmitters). It won't transmit through atmosphere, though, so in practice you have communications satellites with FTL transmitters and radio receivers. It more or less acts like a really fast radio. I haven't bothered to design any of the science behind it, though.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

This would work through quantum entanglement' date=' right? You can't transmit information through such a link. And even if you could, you'd be sending messages into the past.[/quote']

 

 

Yes, this is based on quantum entanglement. Just something I read, I don't have my quantum physics badge as of yet, but the people working on this do and they think this it possible. I though it was very cool. No mention of any time shift. How far into the past?

[keithcurtis]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Depends on how far you transmit. All FTL travel is time travel. And yes, I've read refuatations of the whole particle-splitting thing. It can't send a meaningful message. It's so esoteric, though, I think it would work fine for an RPG. It worked for Orson Scott Card.

 

Keith "Knew a young lady named Bright..." Curtis

[Agemegos]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

This would work through quantum entanglement' date=' right? You can't transmit information through such a link. And even if you could, you'd be sending messages into the past.[/quote']

 

So?

 

Any FTL communication involves sending information into the past: in some frames of reference. Just as any FTL travel is time travel in some frames of reference. If you include FTL in your setting you're saying that you aren't going to worry about that.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

No mention of any time shift. How far into the past?

 

It is equal to the light distance. So for 100 lightyears, it would be 100 years. This is based on a light particle moves instanteously (from its perspective).

[Agemegos]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

It is equal to the light distance. So for 100 lightyears' date=' it would be 100 years. This is based on a light particle moves instanteously (from its perspective).[/quote']

 

Nope.

 

It comes down to the Theory of Relativity. The major result if the Special Theory is that observers in relative motion disagree about the timing of spatially-separated events. So long as the space-time interval between the events is "timelike" (ie. the 'later' event is within the light-cone of the 'earlier' event) observers will disagree about the distance and the timing but they will not disagree about the sequence. But if each event is outside the light-cone of the other then observers may disagree about the sequence.

 

The upshot is that if you have any sort of FTL travel or communication, according to some frames of reference it will be instantaneous, according to others FTL but slower than instantaneous, and according to others it will amount to travel or communication into the past.

 

On the other hand, given any sort of travel into the past, different observers will disagree on how far into the past the object or information goes. If the destination the pastward half of the lightcone of the origin (ie. if it arrives in the past in a place where it can send a lightspeed or slower signal to the place it left from that will arrvie before it left) then all observers will at least agree that it was travel into the past. But if it involved trvel to a point that is in the past but so far away as to be outside the lightcone of the origin, then observers will disagree on sequence: some will calculate that arrival occured before departure, others that departure occurred before arrival, others that they were simultaneous.

 

In short, there can be no definite answer. Different (but equally consistent and valid) frames of reference produce different answers for the duration and length of any interval in space-time.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

You're right, I forgot why I hate Special Relativity, watches don't work.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

You're right' date=' I forgot why I hate Special Relativity, watches don't work.[/quote']

 

Well, mine does.

 

Keith "the rest of you are the ones with the problem" Curtis

[Spence]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

My favorite system has FTL communication tied to transport. IE Couriers. If you want to send a message you have to send a ship. Messenger torpedoes or drones don't work. And here is why

 

(disclaimer: many of these ideas have been shamelessly "borrowed" from other evil people)

 

FTL travel is by hyper-jump. A ship accelerates until it reaches its Jump threshold and then it Jumps. The threshold is determined by strength of nearest gravity well, ships mass, ships velocity and strength of the jump generators. FTL speed is a direct ratio of the ships normal space velocity when it enters Jump Space. A ship cannot change speed, alter course or even "see" while it is in Jump. So you point the ship in the right direction, accelerate until you reach Jump threshold and Jump. Wait a predetermined time, based on last speed and Jump generator efficency and drop out of jump at the destination (you hope). So far this is nothing very new. But here is my little evil addition. J-space has some weird effects. The most known is its natural EMP. Yep, you read correctly. A ship in Jump gets bombarded with a constant EMP like field that pretty much destroys anything electronic. Especially semi-conductors, "chips" and magnetic devices. Say good-bye to computers. Since the effect permeates the entire "dimension", no successful sheilding has ever been developed. Even if a device is shut down it will be "eroded" and tends to fail. Primitive systems tend to be able to continue working. Mechanical systems, engines as well as low tech electrical systems (lighting, basic intercoms, etc). Electronics based on tubes also works even though it is high maintenance. Even a ships drive is high tech devolved into low tech.

 

All in all self guided drones are out to carry messages. Ships do tend to get lost too

[keithcurtis]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

There are some interesting implications here. Firstly, does equipment that is powered down get damaged? If so, it would seem that interstellar technological ecomnomies would have to be built locally from the ground up. You can't import computers and other neato gadgets. However since this sems that it would turn your spaceship into an expensive piece of useless junk on the far side, I assume that you can turn it off, jump and then turn it back on after you get to your destination. Otherwise all starships are disposable.

 

Wouldn't turnng off the jump drive require some technology? If not, it would have to be done mechanically. Perhaps a clockwork wind-up mechanism could be used to do this for a drone.

 

There are other ways to send info rather than electronic storage. Microfilm and microdot are old tech even today. Future tech should be able to imbed frightful amounts of info in the structure of blocks of crystal.

 

Still it sounds like an interesting set of limitations that would lead to a unique campaign world.

 

Keith "ponderous ponderer" Curtis

[Spence]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

There are some interesting implications here. Firstly' date=' does equipment that is powered down get damaged? If so, it would seem that interstellar technological ecomnomies would have to be built locally from the ground up. You can't import computers and other neato gadgets. However since this sems that it would turn your spaceship into an expensive piece of useless junk on the far side, I assume that you can turn it off, jump and then turn it back on after you get to your destination. Otherwise all starships are disposable. [/quote']

 

Not really. Modern computers and gadgets are a product of the semi-conductor and related tech. Before that we used tubes. There was a tube that equaled pretty much everything we do with semi-conductors. Diodes, transistors, etc. Computer chips are simply vast numbers (thousands?) of juctions (diode is a single junction device, transistor is a 3 or 4 junction device) shrunk down and packed in layers at the microscopic level. The major drawback to tubes in comparison with SC's is power consumption, speed, and the big one size. By killing SC's you put available tech for a starship back to the 40-50's. But you are right that high tech bases would have to built from the 50's up.

 

Wouldn't turnng off the jump drive require some technology? If not, it would have to be done mechanically. Perhaps a clockwork wind-up mechanism could be used to do this for a drone.

 

There are other ways to send info rather than electronic storage. Microfilm and microdot are old tech even today. Future tech should be able to imbed frightful amounts of info in the structure of blocks of crystal.

 

Coming out of jump is accomplished by turing off the drive after a predetermined time. And yes you could do it with a "clock". But who would recalculate for the second jump? Without modern computers to control instruments and make extended calculations we are back to more primitive methods. In this universe the astrogator locates and locks on to the target destination (star) with an optical sight. The ships heading is altered to match. And the ship jumps on that heading. Because of the inherent inaccuracy within the process the ship most likely will not be exactly on target. So they time their exit early. Upon break out the astrogators with survey the near stars using their charts and compare spectroscopic pictures of the near stars to the "catalog" on microfiche. When the target and estimated range is re-identified, the ship is re-aligned and the next jump is made.

 

Still it sounds like an interesting set of limitations that would lead to a unique campaign world.

 

Keith "ponderous ponderer" Curtis

 

Thank you

 

When I finally get everything written down, especially how the drives work, where it is a coherent whole I'll post it for a general critique.

 

Spence

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Is there some reason that a Faraday cage won't keep the EMP effect out? They certainly can in the real world. Even if you can only afford to shield a small area, it could be worth many times its weight in gold! (Shield an area the size of, oh, a refrigerator and pack it full of high-tech microchips destined for an up-and-coming colony world. Shielded from the EMP effects, those chips reach the destination intact. Each would almost literally be priceless!)

 

Using a Faraday Cage to shield a ship's computer wouldn't be viable, because you'd have no way for signals to travel from inside the FC (where the computer is) to the outside (where the people and equipment are). Thus an FC would probably only be viable for cargo, not active/working components/devices.

 

If you say a FC won't work because even the space inside the FC would be "flooded" because the space in there is, by definition, part of the hyper-dimension, so be it. I just thought I'd ask.

 

This state of affairs does bring a couple more concerns to mind, though.

 

First, ongoing EMP fields like that (days? weeks? months?) would cause problems with the human nervous system as well. Likely there would be personality degredation among the crew, insomnia, and general health problems. Many of these would not go away upon returning to normal space, because they come from permanent damage. The human central nervous system is electro-chemical, and much more sensitive than you'd think. At the very least a sustained EMP field like you describe is going to lead to a heck of a lot of ionizing radiation, and computer chips aren't the only things that don't survive that long. Our nervous systems are another.

 

The second concern is with power. What sort of power supply is there for the engines? I'm guessing it's not an internal combustion engine! Most likely it's nuclear. I'm guessing fusion's out, because not only would magnetic containment of plasma be next to impossible under the circumstances you describe, but you simply cannot have a reactor of that complexity without computers to monitor, correct, and rebalance the magnetic flux. That would seem to leave fission reactions. Leaving aside their bulk, there's the problem of energy density. Unless it takes a very small amount of energy (relatively speaking) to punch into and travel through hyperspace, I have serious doubts about a fission plant being able to supply sufficient energy. You've got to consider that fission plants are (with the exception of radiothermal generator plants) just glorified steam engines...the heat of fission heats/boils water, which turns turbines, which move generators to make electricity. So unless it doesn't take much more energy to punch into and move through hyperspace than it takes to propel a modern nuclear aircraft carrier, I doubt you'd get enough energy out of fission to be able to do the job. Remember, fission plants are bulky and heavy, and the faster a ship is going when it "punches", the faster it arrives at its destination. The huge mass of a fission plant means a lot of energy to accelerate the ship to a high speed, unless you're using ion propulsion...in which case you'd better not be in a hurry to build up enough speed for a quick hyperspace transit. The world's first ion drive spacecraft, Deep Space One, required FOUR DAYS to go from 0 to 60 miles per hour, and the drive requires a constant 225 kW of power round-the-clock. Don't look for 'future advances' to make ion drive craft much faster, either...the very nature of an ion drive works against this.

 

A radiothermal plant isn't the answer to your energy problems, either. Though it's much less bulky and complicated than a full-fledged fission plant, a radiothermal generator produces little more than a trickle of electricity. The space probes to the outer solar system use these, because sunlight at that distance is too faint for solar power. Even so, those craft require remarkably little power, so a radiothermal plant will work for them. It wouldn't work for a spaceship drive...it simply doesn't put out anywhere near enough power.

 

I'm not trying to rain on your parade or tear down your work...just raising some concerns that you should think about. If I thought of these, so will other people...and it's best you have an answer ready when your players ask, so the Suspension of Disbelief doesn't come crashing down...and your campaign with it.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Hi Folks: Hate to break into this exciting scientific banter...yawn...but I thought I would describe how I do it in my fictional Star Hero campaign.

 

In my game there are no FTL ships or communications. Folks travel to and from various locations through flux gates. These are natural breaches into another dimension where time and space are distorted. As these gates are very rare they are prized and highly guarded. Communications travel on ships that are registered as data carriers. The information is locked in special containers.

 

This makes for GREAT role playing situations. I was hoping one of the PC would be a "data mule" but nobody went that route.

 

Someday soon I'll post my entire campaign setup so folks can take a look. It is over 60 pages.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

Not really. Modern computers and gadgets are a product of the semi-conductor and related tech. Before that we used tubes. There was a tube that equaled pretty much everything we do with semi-conductors. Diodes, transistors, etc. Computer chips are simply vast numbers (thousands?) of juctions (diode is a single junction device, transistor is a 3 or 4 junction device) shrunk down and packed in layers at the microscopic level. The major drawback to tubes in comparison with SC's is power consumption, speed, and the big one size. By killing SC's you put available tech for a starship back to the 40-50's. But you are right that high tech bases would have to built from the 50's up.

 

 

Spence

 

According to Intel, there are about 42 million transistors on a typical Pentium 4 chip. And memory chips. Memory chips require 1 transistor for each bit for DRAM, or 4 transistors for each bit for SRAM. And the memory in my computer, SDRAM, is a combination of the two (about 5 transistors per bit). 8 bits in a byte, 1000 bytes in a Kbyte (actually, 2^10, but try telling hdd manufacturers), approximately 40,000 transistors per Kbyte.

 

And the paragraph above is a little less than a half Kbyte.

 

Now, setting up the computers on a starship to the level of 40s-50s computers would, in effect, limit you to room-size, fragile computers with the processing power of a modern $5 pocket calculator. In fact, this was the era of the slipstick, with slide rules used for most scientific calculations. Custom slide rules were available for specific tasks, like fuel load calculations on B52s.

So, maybe the starships would have special slide rules for calculations of jump (or they're done on-planet) to set mechanical controls. Information is put on microfilm or fiche for compact shipment. And, maybe, people have to be "turned off" by being put into suspended animation so that they survive the toxic effects of the higher dimensions. Those deciding to ride it out suffer from jump sickness, created by the strong emf fluxes interacting with their nervous system. Kind of feels like a "Forbidden Planet" or "This Island Earth" type of campaign.

 

JoeG

[Spence]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

so the Suspension of Disbelief doesn't come crashing down...and your campaign with it.

 

 

Not worried about it. The suspension of belief part. I usually have about 30 min a night I can play on the Comp, so my post was very short and just talked about a few points. But most of the technology is not real world based. The drives and powerplants are based on tech that we haven't discovered yet, taken from an old pulp scifi novel that works within its "world". I should have said "EMPlike". Most people immediately latch onto EMP as having to be a big bang type effect. IE it must be radiated from a central source (bomb etc). When a pulse goes through a device it usually induces current which fries delicate circuitry. Which is why some "hardened" gear was in Faraday Cages (as you mentioned), otherwise shielded or just old tech, tubes and relays vice semiconductors and chips. as Ternaugh pointed out a P4 has the equivilent of about 42 million transistors. When we handle sc's we pay a great deal of attention to ESD. In a nutshell the human body maintains a static charge that may be small to us, but can easily induce current in the micro range in any semiconductor/chip we happen to touch. To devices that small even a microamp can destroy the device. In fact to convince us old timers, they would show us microscopic pictures of chips that had been ESD impacted and the surface damage reminded me of bombcraters. If you have ever walked across a carpeted floor and got shocked when you touched a door handle, you just shot at least 10KV in static electricity. A "field" that generates 1-100 volts of static electricity wouldn't be noticable by people, but if it fluctuated enough to induce current it could easily destroy microcircuitry. The ESD protections basically have you equalizing your charge before touching the device, no difference in potential, no current, no damage. My "field effect" in Jump-space is more theoretical than proven in the game world. No one has been able to measure it or define it with instrumentation, since instruments and known methods do not work. They do know that SC's are garbage at the other end but "low tech" electronics (tubes, etc.) will survive.

 

If you didn't need to worry about fuel for your powerplant and your propulsion system was able to attain necessary speeds you could utilize a lower tech approach to navigation. You don't need sc's or computers to make radar's, radios' or any number of usable devices.

 

There are gaps and holes if you are trying to be in the real world, That I fully admit. But my game is Pulp Scifi/Space Opera, not traveler. I have run this universe before and the players never had a problem with suspension of belief. Plus the forced "low tech" nature has really enhanced the pulp feel, kinda like Space 1889 or Firefly did, IMO. I also have habital worlds being greater in number than the civilizations available to colonize them. My venus is a swamp, and mars an arid desert world A ship can be fairly certain that their will be a habital world or at least one that has basic materials to replenish air and water supplies in most systems. While the adventurers, explorers and pioneers have exploded out into the galaxy, civilization crawls on at the speed of the infrastructure. A ship itself is easy to build for an industrial civilization, but it's drive and powersource is not. While they are extremely simple and rugged once built, the materials to do so are not natural and can only be synthesized with a very advanced industrial capability. There are many "Outworlds" with yards that can repair most anything on a starship, but drive and powerplant repair is the domain of the Core world yards.

 

 

Anyway I need to take a quick look at the other threads and answer some e-mail before I crash.

 

Oh and I hope no one takes anything in this reply the wrong way. When I get in a hurry I tend to write with less than tact, and give the impression I am hacking on people. All of the comments were right on based on my very skimpy post. I just hadn't give enough info to properly explain my concepts. I will be putting together everything in a complete write-up and sending/posting it later. Maybe in a month or so. I still have to actually write down my HERO blackpowder rules adaption that has been gathering dust for the last 2 years.

 

Spence

[grymlocke]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

two words.."Crystal Singer" by Anne McCaffery(SP?)

 

the main character is a prospector with perfect pitch that hunts a special crystal formation....any crystals from the 'core plant' can resonate with each other NO MATTER THE DISTANCE, but only with those that came off that particular formation...a hunter needs perfect pitch to test the cystal resonance...these are the basis of the interstellar communications network...good idea, workable inho.

 

anyone else read the book?

 

if not, read it....

[keithcurtis]

Re: Interstellar communications

 

two words.."Crystal Singer" by Anne McCaffery(SP?)

 

the main character is a prospector with perfect pitch that hunts a special crystal formation....any crystals from the 'core plant' can resonate with each other NO MATTER THE DISTANCE, but only with those that came off that particular formation...a hunter needs perfect pitch to test the cystal resonance...these are the basis of the interstellar communications network...good idea, workable inho.

 

anyone else read the book?

 

if not, read it....

While I love Anne McCaffrey's work, particularly the early Dragonrider books, science is not a strong suit with her. I've never been able to figure out how the Red Star's orbit could possibly work, for instance.

Is there any kind of an explanation how these crystals do this? If there isn't even at least lip service paid to science, it sounds like magic.

 

Keith "Not that there's anything wrong with magic" Curtis