Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

[DarkClaw]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

Actually according to Marvel stats between who has killed more Wolverine or the Punisher, Wolverine had a kill count in the high hundres(if not more can't quite remember the stats) and the Punisher was not far behind. Wolverine is pretty old and has been involved in just about every major conflict around and worked as a Black-ops operative doing wetwork and other nasty stuff. even if the were left breathing thet most likley died from there wounds. He has stated before that taking a life is the easy part it's living with it that haunts you forever. He has pulled his punches when required but when he decides that they are going down they go down. Being in the X-Men has helped some but part of his plot line is that he can't escape what he is (or at least what they created him to be). I asked this question to see how others deal with this issue becaus eeveryone is different. i myself don't really have a problem with my characters who decided that the villian needs to buy the farm, I of course make it as hard for them as possible and make sure that they get what they give. And if the situation requires that the law needs to step in then I do that as well. I try and add some real life stuff to a fantasy game and come out with something in between. As in real life if a ploice officer tells you to put your hands in the air and you make a motion like your going for a weapon or charge at them then they have a split second to decide if their life is in danger and react accordingly.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

Has happened in the past, but not often. Two hero deaths, both same player. First time due to repeatedly trying to use power pool in ways specifically advised would not be allowed. Second time hero was in imminent danger of getting killed, other heroes could have saved him, didn't try.

 

Some agent deaths in combat. Some villains have died due to players trying to screw them over, and perhaps not realizing just how deadly their actions are going to be. (example - villain FUME - chem suit/gas gun. After being repeatedly pounded by breath-holding heroes, added a 30mm cannon to the gas gun "just in case". Got a chance to use his new weapon, heroes KO him, one tears open his armored suit, sticks gas gun in, pulls trigger. "There's two triggers, which do you pull?" "BOTH!!" Gas goes off, as well as blowing huge hole in villain's chest. Oops.)

 

Civilian deaths are usually pretty non-existant, usually only for plot purposes. I prefer to have players SAVE people, not just show up for the aftermath. One GM I play with has the unfortunate tendency to have massive, unstoppable, icky civilian deaths and then wonder why the heroes start getting grimmer. On the other hand, I don't think I've seen him actually kill a character yet, perhaps only because the campaigns don't last overlong.

 

Another GM used to kill characters a fair bit, and enjoyed weeding out the CU villains he didn't like. Both tendencies have waned over time.

 

Unless it is the direct result of deliberate PC action or gross inaction, I try to avoid hero or villain deaths. Partly because I don't want the campaign going down that road, partly because I don't want to have to keep dealing with new characters and writing even more villains up.

[FTJoshua]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

We just found out about PC mortality in our last adventure, when we lost 3 PC's to death and a fourth to "unknown." Prior to that, we lost two PCs (by the same player) due to stupidity and a third we killed off when the player stopped showing up (he was resurrected later when the player came back.)

 

Our campaign is very lethal on both sides, but our world is such that mutants are hated and feared above all things (at least in the U.S.). However, the PC's are also starting to scale back their lethality now that they realize they really are on top of the food chain. The guilt of all the death they've dealt has been slowly but surely coming to the fore over the last couple years.

 

I for one am looking forward to the change in texture. There will still be death - we have at least one Casual Killer in the group - but the struggle with it will be very interesting, whereas years ago, it was just a matter of course.

[Magmarock]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

I'm trying to remember if any of my PCs have died and I can only recall one, and a near miss.

 

The near misss was back in the day and and happened with one of my earliest PCs, Psy-Kit (magical cat transformed into a humanoid by the evil Dr. Myu Ta Chu). Oddly, it was one of her own teammates, Wildchild, who nearly killed her while he was in a berserek rage. Paramedics and blood donation from a regenergating hero (Wildchild, the same one who almost killed her) are the only things that saved her life. On a side note, Wildchild threw his blade-bracers into the river right after that, and swore off using lethal weaponry in his remorse.

 

The PC I had that died, well, it was a mechanics flaw. I was running a mental illusionist called Mindscape. She was ambushed by a large demon the group was hunting... I failed the Activation Roll (14-) on her armor and the result was the demon bit her head off. It was rather sudden and quite final. How does one return from such a death... unless she exists in another timeline/dimension. Lesson learned, never ever have all your resistant defenses on an Activation Roll!

 

 

Wolverine: One of my favorite characters ever. I will never tire reading about him... but he is still a walking plot device. Anyone who creates a Wolverine-clone PC should expect the same in game. He's one of those character types where trouble finds him, moreso than most characters, mostly due to elements from his lengthy background.

 

 

Mags

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

(magical cat transformed into a humanoid by the evil Dr. Myu Ta Chu).

 

Is the pun here intentional?

 

The PC I had that died, well, it was a mechanics flaw. I was running a mental illusionist called Mindscape. She was ambushed by a large demon the group was hunting... I failed the Activation Roll (14-) on her armor and the result was the demon bit her head off.

 

Ah yes, the unfortunate wardrobe malfunction...

[Magmarock]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

Is the pun here intentional?

 

Pun? No pun... but for the unfortunate sound of the man's name. it is pronounced "mutate you". Yes, it was very intentional. The evil doctor was an early colleague of Dr. Paul Moreau (you know the one). They split over differences and each turned his research to another direction, yet toward the same effect- creating humanoids out of animals.

 

Mags

[zornwil]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

PCs very very rarely die, but it can happen. Hasn't happened in the current campaign, happened once in the last one.

 

Vilalins occasionally get killed in combat, but rarely. We've had 2 or 3 villains killed in combat, 1 supervillain (Kingpin) killed by an NPC when one PC could have done something about it, and 1 "regular joe" bad guy killed deliberately in cold blood by a PC (the bad guy had killed said PC's mother under the pay of Kingpin).

[John515]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

We nearly had a death yesterday in our game run by Argus of these very boards. Our resident Brick had a spot of bad luck and ended up at about -5 BODY. I fully expect it to happen to one of us sooner or later if we don't stop her again.......

[lemming]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

PC death used to be a matter of course in games, but that's when there were 10-20 games per week. Though over a 20 year period, 5 PCs have been killed of mine. Three in a permament style.

i think the last PC in a superhero game I saw killed was way back in '98. But that was the last year where I was playing regular. Current game, I don't think any of the villians have been killed. One of the PCs did take a bit of body though.

[KA.]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

Having death occur is a very different question than "do your PCs kill?"

 

To the first, I say, yes... death is a very real possibility in my campaigns, with serious repercussions... it's just that supers are very, very hard to kill, most of the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is rare, since most will survive incapacitating blows... be out of the fight, but captured or whatever. You really have to blast someone when they are down to whack most supers. That kind of thing is very rare, even in my more gritty campaigns.

 

Do players kill? Yes... but mostly in combat... not with intent... only once or twice in cold blood. When folks kneejerk and say "Killing is murder" I just cringe. That is crap. Killing in a combat situation is not murder... it's combat. If players want to hunt down a badguy and whack 'em in their sleep... yeah, that's murder... but a villain who dies (or an agent or whomever) resisting apprehension for a crime... that is not murder. Not that death won't have repercussions... it does... and nearly all PCs are at least reluctant to kill... but it does happen, and it's not the end of the world. It's drama.

 

The main thing about encouraging or discouraging killing in a campaign, is "what is the nature of villainy" and "what happens when they are captured" in you campaign.

 

If your villains are mass murdering terrorists... ok, kid gloves are off... you don't expect the heroes to play by different rules. If you want Silver Age heroes... create silver age villains. That means the Joker ties Gordon to a big penny... not the Joker kills a truck load of Cub Scouts.

 

The bigger issue is capture. If your villains escape. If the justice system fails over and over... then there is no excuse for non-lethal force. It would be, in fact, immoral for a hero who's world proves over and over again that capture doesn't work, to NOT kill a villain who has proved to be a mass murderer over and over. Current comics ethics are so completely immoral at this point (killers walk free, no justice system is effective, but hey... heroes don't kill gosh darn it) that it is a joke.

 

If you want heroes to be non-lethal... make non-lethal effective. That means villains go to prison... they STAY in prison... and murderous villains get death sentences or the like. The hero stops 'em without killing them... the justice system better work, or you just created a bunch of vigilante heroes. You need to reward non-lethal behavior, if you want it to continue.

 

Wow, Neil, I almost got whiplash reading this post.

At first I was thinking:

"Well, here we go. Another guy who likes to turn Champions into a blood-sport.":mad:

But then I read the rest of your post, and found that I was in complete agreement with you.

 

I run a four-color campaign, so it is extremely rare for anyone to die, other than as a pre-arranged plot device.

 

But, on the other hand, I don't have Carnage, and the modern version of The Joker, show up to fight the heroes, either.

 

I agree that the GM can't have it both ways.

 

You don't have a villain appear on the scene by using Nerve Gas on the local Daycare Center, and then expect the heroes to attempt to box with him.

 

If you want the heroes to "play by the rules" then the villains have to also.

 

There are so many worthwhile plots to explore, without splattering blood everywhere, that I just don't feel the need to "Go Lethal".

 

However, for those who want to, I see nothing wrong with it.

 

I have played D&D, Top Secret, Bushido, and other RPG's where killing was "normal" and part of the fun of the game.

 

I just don't personally like to have it as part of the Superheroic genre, on the part of the Heroes or the Villains.

 

KA.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

That's why deathtraps are popular - if the hero blows up' date=' you're well away from the blast site when it occurs.[/quote']

 

That's really clever! I think that's the best rationalization for death traps I have ever heard. If you do not mind my asking, is the idea original with you, or were you inspired by someone else?

[Fedifensor]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

That's really clever! I think that's the best rationalization for death traps I have ever heard. If you do not mind my asking' date=' is the idea original with you, or were you inspired by someone else?[/quote']

It's original to me...though deathtraps have often been a way for the GM to get the villain away from the hero, as well as an alternative to just killing the goody-two shoes.

 

Though I have things set up to make supertypes careful about killing each other, in practice they don't detonate. Hiroshima was an exception because his cells basically stored up atomic power. While a few others have similar powers, most supers aren't unstable like that. Eventually (in 5 or 10 game years), the world will figure this out, and the tone changes dramatically. In practice, though, I've set things up like this to keep the lethality down.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

If you want Silver Age heroes... create silver age villains. That means the Joker ties Gordon to a big penny... not the Joker kills a truck load of Cub Scouts.

 

This is an excellent point. As a corollary, and I'm sure this goes without saying (or at least it should, like most "how to be a good GM" advice), if this is the kind of game you want to play and run, it's incredibly important to convey that to the players right up front, even before they start bouncing around character ideas. The tone of the campaign has a pervasive effect on so much, and players (myself included) do not always pick up on it as quickly as we might like.

 

It would be' date=' in fact, immoral for a hero who's world proves over and over again that capture doesn't work, to NOT kill a villain who has proved to be a mass murderer over and over.[/quote']

 

You make a good point, but it is important to remember that superhero comics have a peculiar dynamic, in that they are episodic and they last a really long time. Translated into the reality of running a game, who wants to make up new villains every time the heroes defeat one? I sure don't. On the flipside, I have played in games where the damned master villain just never went away no matter what we did, until several of us (as players, not characters) demanded that either the GM retire him or start a new campaign in a new universe. The GM did the latter -- and the old master villain immediately showed up again. I stopped playing with that GM after that, although I still play with him as a player (I have nothing against him personally, he's a swell guy and a fine player).

 

I'm just saying that although it might not be realistic, there are considerations which might make the serial capture of a villain a bit more palatable if you keep them in mind: it is a game, and what's more, it's a superhero game, and that does have an impact on what is reasonable in the setting.

 

At least, that's what I think. There is room for people of good will to disagree on this issue.

[Guest Blizzard]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

I the game I'm running a hero took out a sniper (skilled normal with a FBG) with a 3d6 RKA. Sniper go splat. (this after his partner had shot and nearly killed the "mayor" of mutant town) Then seconds later mortor rounds start falling into a mutant rights march. (courtsey of Genocide) Quite a toll on the crowd.

 

As for player death I had the FBI raid the hanger the heros were in (Demo'ed the door rushing in state of the art combat suits [simular to ones a renegade army unit wore during a bank robery in the first game of the campain] Autmatic weapons out ordering people down, identifing themselves as FBI)

The power suit of the team bolts in his wheel chair (outside of his armor he is missing an arm and a leg) An agent reacts by firing a burst of his M16 scoring 3 hits in the back. By all rights the character is DED dead, but my feeling is that characters should die a heroic death, not really one of gross stupidity. So the speedster runs him to an NPC healer (one that saved the "mayor's" life). She saves his life, nearly dies in the process (removing a crutch the team was leaning on) and our hero regains ALL of his origianal equipment.

He does something like that again I might not be so nice.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

BBlackmoor,

 

but it is important to remember that superhero comics have a peculiar dynamic

 

While MANY superhero comics have this peculiar dynamic, not all of them do.

 

While MANY gamers want to emulate the "peculiar dynamic," not all of them do.

 

My problem is that so many people state THEIR OPINION as ABSOLUTE FACT.

 

"Superheroes never kill."

 

"Comics don't do that."

 

etc.

 

While that may be yours and others desire... please don't assume it is the ONLY way... or the RIGHT way... to play a supers campaign. Those absolute statements do nothing but cause flame wars. It leaves no room for discussion from someone like me, who has run a 17 year supers campaign with the PRIME INTENT of eliminating all those "peculiar dynamics" that I find so galling in the comics. I make that very clear to new players... and I don't game with those who don't enjoy my style of campaign. (By that I mean, no hard feelings... I'll play another game with them... just the RDU is not the game for them.)

 

In the end, it is important to realize the Champions as a game system CAN emulate comics... but a whole bunch of different comics... no one way is the right way... and that is the beauty of the system. It allows you to create the world you want... the rest is up to mature adults to talk out the "peculiar dynamics" of that world, agree on them... and then have fun.

[Kirby]

Re: Killing Characters/Villians in your games.

 

Just wanted to get some feedback from other players to find out if they have killed player characters in their games.

 

None of our PCs has killed NPCs in Champions games (aside from nefarious undead and android types), though there have been some in Dark Champions.

 

Do you allow your heroes to kill the villians? If they do what are the consequences' date=' are there any? Give me some examples.[/quote']

 

Let me say that neither I, nor other GMs I've been with, have *disallowed* us to kill villains; however, we don't make a point to try and kill them, nor do we load up on killing attacks. (Heh, though there was this one player who created a Cherokee PC hero with a Code vs. Killing. He had some non-damaging attacks [entangle, flash,] though his only offensive attack was a 2d6 RKA [AP] attack with his bow. We laughed when we figured this out and it took a few games for the player to realize his mess up. Unfortunately, he didn't think his attack was powerful enough to kill major villains, so he didn't have any qualms with it. Strange.)

 

 

But I tend to try and be a more realistic gamemaster and allow the characters to act as they feel they would really act to certin situation' date=' which may include killing (in self defense of course). So let me know your thoughts.[/quote']

 

I think that Champions did a great thing when they created the difference of BODY and STUN. Many game systems are set up where knocking out your opponent is much rarer and more difficult than killing him. Champions does good in making death a nearly intentional act.

 

As for repercussions, that depends on the circumstance. Reckless killing would be treated as such, while a VIPER agent being killed in a nest invasion would probably be overlooked as accidental or unavoidable. The GM must be mature enough also not to take revenge on the player or PC because of this. I have known a few GMs (mostly female, but one male) who would be very vindictive if any villain was killed (or, if other games, their favorite NPC villain, or one that wasn't *supposed* to get killed but did). Usually a long-lost relative would come into town and start targetting said PC, even if it was impossible for the relative to know.

 

Sometimes, I think it may be *expected* by design. If the PC(s) in question were blade weilding martial artists fighting villain blade-weilding martial artists, then blood would be expected to be drawn, though it might be possible to knock out your bloodied opponent first. Regardless, I think the GM needs to let the players know up front on the grittiness or heroism that is expected overall.

[JMcL63]

Re: Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

 

Four of the most memorable sessions I ever played involved the death of my PC. Two of them were 'everybody dies' scenarios, which proved to be highly entertaining. The first of the other two was an early Aftermath game, in which one of my 2 PC's died due to a snakebite. This was a totally random event, but it was the way in which the other players reacted to this death that made it poignantly memorable.

 

The other death was equally pointless- my WHFRP PC, with no further Fate Points, decided to pursue a fleeing enemy, who turned to fight back, and rolled a fatal critical. What made this death particularly memorable was that, after having essentially saved the rest of the party single-handed, my PC's pointless death was met by nothing more than the looting of his corpse by his erstwhile comrades. Shocking as it was, the GM and I later agreed that this was entirely in keeping with the ethos of the campaign background.

 

All in all then, my experience of player character death has so far been positive.