Genetic Tribalism?

[FenrisUlf]

Been kicking around an idea for some time, I'd like to trot it out here and get some feedback.

 

As a way of sneaking nonhumans into a low-level Star Hero game (either cyberpunk or based in the solar system, but with advanced gengineering), what do you think of genetic tribalism? That's a term I use to cover an idea I read about years ago. How, in the future, genetics engineering might become a tool of fashion and social bonding; i.e., everyone in this one subculture has themselves modded to look like elves or wolf-people or Cthuloids or whatever, AND they have their kids genetically modded in the same fashion. Sort of like that line from Batman Beyond; "It lets me establish myself as an individual, so I look just like everyone else I know."

 

I was thinking of maybe having a few cultures like this crop up in the further future (like Terran Empire or Alien Wars), with the oddball aliens ultimately turning out to be humanity's somewhat distant cousins.

 

So, does this sound workable, or not?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

It's certainly an interesting thought. I say you should run with it.

[allen]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

Been kicking around an idea for some time, I'd like to trot it out here and get some feedback.

 

As a way of sneaking nonhumans into a low-level Star Hero game (either cyberpunk or based in the solar system, but with advanced gengineering), what do you think of genetic tribalism?

 

...

 

So, does this sound workable, or not?

 

There's a series of SF novels by Jack Womack, most particularly the novel Ambient, that deal to some extent with the theme of tribalism expressed vis-a-vis body modification. I can't recall if the modification takes place at the genetic level though. Errr... to be honest I'm not sure how helpful the novel would be from a GMing point of view. Err... to be doubly honest that particular novel is the worst of the bunch, so I disavow all responsibility if you read it and think it sucks... haha..

 

(IMO... Elvissey is definitely worth a read if you like near-future, dystopian sci fi; Terraplane is interesting, but kind of raw; and I'm not sure how enjoyable Going, Going, Gone is if you haven't read the other novels....)

[Agemegos]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

[E]veryone in this one subculture has themselves modded to look like elves or wolf-people or Cthuloids or whatever, AND they have their kids genetically modded in the same fashion.

 

…

 

So, does this sound workable, or not?

 

Well, reflecting that genes are not like blueprints, but more like a recipe, ie. that they encode in essence a set of instructions for development from a zygote to an adult, not the final form of the adult directly, I think that there might be some feasibility issues.

 

In the first place, it is not at all clear that inserting genes into an adult is a promising approach to making substantial changes in the adult's form. It's like trying to change a sponge cake into a chocolate pound cake after you have baked it: the best way to start is to feed the sponge cake to a hen and start over.

 

It isn't a matter of getting some genes 'for' a tail and patching them in with a retrovirus. Genes 'for' a cat's tail are instructions for growing a tail starting from a cat embryo, not starting from a human adult. You have to design a sequence of developments that will produce a tail starting with what you have, code those developments as genes, patch them in, then disable any genes that would cause problems if their expression were to start up again, then re-start development, let it run the right length of time, and then stop it. My guess is that this will get you a corpse rather than a living being. Cosmetic surgery using semi-synthetic grafts is a much more promising approach.

 

Even if genetic modification of an adult is not lethal, your adult may very well be sterile. And if he or she isn't, his or her kids are going to have had a lot of important genes de-activated, and going to have a lot of genes expressing themselves that were designed to grow (say) cat's ears in an adult, but will have very different effects in a different environment (ie. zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, child, adolescent). So if anyone does genetically modify themselves, they are certainly going to have to modify their kids if they are to have any. If they get it right, though, they won't have to modify their grandkids. But their kids and grandkids are likely to modify themselves and their progeny at whim. You won't so much get a distinct type as a trajectory through fashion space. I think the only way you get a stable line of modified humans is if this technology is used and then lost.

[UltraRob]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

I once ran a full space opera campaign with no aliens at all, it was the far future and all the "aliens" were just humans whose ancestors had done what you're talking about either for adaption or cultural purposes. There were some real aliens around, but they were so alien they ignored humanity and humanity ignored them. Of course this occured over thousands of years, so even these "modified humans" were still pretty alien by this point in some respects...

 

If you think this idea is cool, I say go for it!

 

Rob

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

Well, reflecting that genes are not like blueprints, but more like a recipe, ie. that they encode in essence a set of instructions for development from a zygote to an adult, not the final form of the adult directly, I think that there might be some feasibility issues.

 

In the first place, it is not at all clear that inserting genes into an adult is a promising approach to making substantial changes in the adult's form. It's like trying to change a sponge cake into a chocolate pound cake after you have baked it: the best way to start is to feed the sponge cake to a hen and start over.

 

It isn't a matter of getting some genes 'for' a tail and patching them in with a retrovirus. Genes 'for' a cat's tail are instructions for growing a tail starting from a cat embryo, not starting from a human adult. You have to design a sequence of developments that will produce a tail starting with what you have, code those developments as genes, patch them in, then disable any genes that would cause problems if their expression were to start up again, then re-start development, let it run the right length of time, and then stop it. My guess is that this will get you a corpse rather than a living being. Cosmetic surgery using semi-synthetic grafts is a much more promising approach.

 

Even if genetic modification of an adult is not lethal, your adult may very well be sterile. And if he or she isn't, his or her kids are going to have had a lot of important genes de-activated, and going to have a lot of genes expressing themselves that were designed to grow (say) cat's ears in an adult, but will have very different effects in a different environment (ie. zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, child, adolescent). So if anyone does genetically modify themselves, they are certainly going to have to modify their kids if they are to have any. If they get it right, though, they won't have to modify their grandkids. But their kids and grandkids are likely to modify themselves and their progeny at whim. You won't so much get a distinct type as a trajectory through fashion space. I think the only way you get a stable line of modified humans is if this technology is used and then lost.

 

Granted, but then, this is Science-Fiction. Anything is possible! Just talk to the Dean of the Rubber Science Department at Cambridge!

 

I had been toying with a similar idea myself (playing Space Opera where there are no aliens, just the thousands of human spinoffs created during the Gene Wars), and until my players had me switch to Fantasy, the idea was panning out beautifully.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

Even if genetic modification of an adult is not lethal' date=' your adult may very well be sterile. And if he or she isn't, his or her kids are going to have had a lot of important genes de-activated, and going to have a lot of genes expressing themselves that were designed to grow (say) cat's ears in an adult, but will have very different effects in a different environment (ie. zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, child, adolescent). So if anyone does genetically modify themselves, they are certainly going to have to modify their kids if they are to have any. If they get it right, though, they won't have to modify their grandkids. But their kids and grandkids are likely to modify themselves and their progeny at whim. You won't so much get a distinct type as a trajectory through fashion space. I think the only way you get a stable line of modified humans is if this technology is used and then lost.[/quote']

 

Thanks, and I was working on the basis of 'the tech is lost'. I am mostly using the HG background, and it did say in the Terran Empire book that while gengineering was once common, it was mostly abandoned after the cyberpunk era/the Xenovore wars both made it look very bad.

 

I was figuring that the genetic tribalism thing might have been what gave it such a bad odor in my version of the setting. Most people have enough trouble when junior comes home with a pierced nose; imagine what it would be like if he came home with fur, fangs, and claws!

[Peregrine]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

I'd recommend GURPS Bio-tech for an interesting discussion of this sort of thing. While it has the requisite GURPS mechanics, it also has some interesting discussion about the state-of-the-art (circa 1997, the publication date) and speculations based thereon.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

Granted' date=' but then, this is Science-[i']Fiction[/i]. Anything is possible! Just talk to the Dean of the Rubber Science Department at Cambridge!

 

I must use this title!

 

Keith "LOL" Curtis

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

I'd recommend GURPS Bio-tech for an interesting discussion of this sort of thing. While it has the requisite GURPS mechanics' date=' it also has some interesting discussion about the state-of-the-art (circa 1997, the publication date) and speculations based thereon.[/quote']

 

Thanks, though I've had it ever since it came out. Really good book, though my copy is starting to fall apart (can you tell I'm big on genetics?)

 

My own favorite idea from the book was the 'proteus virus', making hi-tech lycanthropy (or whatever-thropy) a possibility.

[Chuckg]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

I'd recommend GURPS Bio-tech for an interesting discussion of this sort of thing. While it has the requisite GURPS mechanics' date=' it also has some interesting discussion about the state-of-the-art (circa 1997, the publication date) and speculations based thereon.[/quote']

 

The GURPS Transhuman Space line of products pretty much /lives/ to explore this theme.

[Peregrine]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

The GURPS Transhuman Space line of products pretty much /lives/ to explore this theme.

*bows*

 

Truly, how could I have forgotten this, the successor and inheritor to BioTech?

 

(BTW, what were you doing on the NGD boards? I thought you avoided that place like the plague.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Genetic Tribalism?

 

Sorry, missed your post earlier.

 

To answer your question -- 'just visiting'.