Using an older edition

[Stephen_H-G]

I did not play the Hero System before Fred came out. I had never even heard of Champions.

 

However, I am curisous about these older versions. What if I was simply interested in playing a nice Silver Agey supers game? Do I need the highl level of detail Fred (and to the same extent) the BBB offer me?

 

Would it be simpler to get an earlier version of Champions? And if so, which one?

[Ghost Archer]

I think it's a matter of availability. 5th Edition is everywhere and the BBB is still easy enough to fine, but going back to 3rd...might be a little harder. Also, you do understand that just because it's in FREd, doesn't mean you have to use it. If you are looking for a simple version of Champions I don't think it's necessary to drop back a few versions, just limit characters to a few basic powers. Sorta like the Legion of Superheroes. Each has their own specialty. You don't need to allow ECs or MPs or, god forbid, VPPs. Let the characters have an attack power, keep it basic, no AVLDs or NNDs or Penetrating/Increased Stun/AP/Autofire Ego attacks. Let them have a defense, Force Field or Armor or Damage Resistance then add some movement power. Pretty basic and probably 200 points or so. If you are just looking for combat, forget about the skills. If you don't want to have to come up with Disadvantages, just give base points to cover the costs.

Honestly, I'd go with FREd because it is so complete and I actually have the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th Editions of Champions/HERO. Just because it's older doesn't make it simpler.

[Thirdbase]

Go with FREd, the examples listed give an advantage (+1) over any of the previous editions that I've seen.

[Syberdwarf2]

Personally, get FREd and stick with it. As GhostArcher suggested, limit the powers and point totals for the characters. Also, you may want to establish some 'ground rules' as I have done with my current campaigns.

You see, I've played RPGs for many years ('bout 15, maybe more) but it's been a long time prior to FREd that I actually played HERO, let alone anything else. So, to help introduce players to gaming and make it easier on myself, I set forth some basic guidelines such as;

-No Rules lawyers or Rules Rapists.

 

-Keep things simple.

 

-We are here to have fun, not prove our superior understanding of the rules. Doing so only promotes negativity amongst players, and I won't stand for it. If you cannot play the game simply for fun, if you must prove you're 'better' than everyone, you WILL be TOLD (not asked) to leave.

 

-Play will be handled in a way that is conducted for convenience of time.

 

That pretty much covers the basics of my initial "Writ of Sanity" (as I call it, not as it's titled) that I give to all new players.

 

Getting back to topic..... Just remember to keep things simple. If you get a copy of an earlier edition you'll run into a number of problems. For one, a lot of players DON'T have access to earlier editions. For another, earlier editions for all intents and purposes should probably be considered collector's items, held onto by their owners for sentimentality/novelty reasons. Not to say you shouldn't get them, just not for actual game play, your money would be better spent elsewhere, like on the products and core books considered most current.

 

Let me reitterate one last time.....

I'm NOT trying to sway you from getting earlier editions. I'm simply suggesting that you focus on the current line for purposes of game play, getting maximum enjoyment of your hobby, and reducing your disappointment from having "out-of-date" material. I hope this helps.

[Uncle Shecky]

I think there are a lot of good reasons to start with one of the earlier editions, but what edition you should start with depends a lot on your experience with RPGs and on what you want out of this game.

 

I've played HERO games for over 20 years, so I see FREd (5th edition) in a very different way than a newbie would. IMHO, FREd is written for experienced gamers, and maybe even experienced HERO gamers. That doesn't mean you can't learn the game from FREd. It has excellent examples, lots of related products, and great support on the HERO Web site: the author even answers your questions personally!

 

FREd is a little daunting though. It's a huge book, and HERO is a complex system (although that is the reason most of us love it so much). Also, FREd doesn't come with any characters you can use: you can't just take a few characters from the book and try to play them to figure out how the game works (and I think that's often the best way to get your feet wet with a new system). Other books like 5th edition CHAMPIONS have many pre-made characters, but you'll have to invest over $70 to get FREd and CHAMPIONS. I think they are worth every penny, but they might not be the best place to start.

 

I have 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition CHAMPIONS as well, and I think any of these books would be a great place to start. As Syberdwarf2 mentioned, many of these earlier books are collector's items (you can't have mine!), but I've seen many copies on E-bay, especially 2nd and 4th edition. Let me sum up those editions for you briefly.

 

The 1st (1981) and 2nd (1982) editions were much shorter (56 and 80 pages respectively), but most of the rules in them haven't changed too much over the years, or they've changed in very understandable ways. Back then, Champions was the HERO system, so all the rules you need to run the game are in those books. 1st and 2nd also came with character-creation walkthroughs, that explained the process very clearly. Both books have 11 pre-made characters (2 heroes and 9 villains), and 1st also has stats for 2 kinds of agents. A friend of mine got 1st edition when we were both 12, and we learned to play it in a single afternoon. We made a lot of mistakes, but we picked it up very quickly. The rules in 1st and 2nd edition are almost identical too, so if you can find 1 copy of each, your gaming group could use those different editions and not have any problems.

 

There's a lot that's missing from those early rulebooks though. Many really useful rules, powers, etc. were introduced in the supplements CHAMPIONS II (from 1982) and CHAMPIONS III (1984). You don't need those to play, but they give you so many more options that they are worth having. That is just another thing to track down, but they shouldn't be very expensive.

 

4th edition (the Big Blue Book or BBB,) is a 300+ page book. (There is a smaller, soft-cover version of 4th that just has the HERO system rules, without the superhero sourcebook, but I'm not very familiar with that.) The BBB (1989) has signifcant revisions of 1st/2nd edition rules, and includes updated versions of the information in CHAMPIONS II and III. It has over 30 characters, including all the characters from the 1st/2nd edition rules, most of the characters from the early VIPER'S NEST adventure (a little booklet that came in the 2nd edition boxed set), and many new characters and villains. It also has some sample adventures and other useful stuff for someone starting a game.

 

I think the BBB is the best RPG book ever. FREd (the 2nd best, IMHO) has better, more-detailed descriptions with tons of examples and clarifications. It's a necessary revision and superior version of the HERO system, but as a single book, the BBB does more for a newbie to the system. My wife had played just a few RPGs over the years, but she found the BBB very accessible.

 

Some problems with the BBB: early editions had a binding problem, so the pages started to fall out. Later printings don't have this problem, so you'd want to make sure you found a BBB with a decent binding. The BBB was also very expensive before FREd came out, although I'm guessing the price has come down now.

 

If money is no object for you and your players, I would say get FREd and some of its supplements. If you want to try the system out, get whatever cheaper earlier edition you can find: as long as you're informed about the contents of thsoe early books, you can get what you need. Chances are, you'll like the earlier editions so much, you'll want to buy 5th edition stuff too. And if not, you won't be out 70 bucks.

[Lord Liaden]

Uncle Shecky raises some very good points. The Big Blue Book has some definite advantages over FREd for a newcomer: it combines extensive HERO System mechanics with lots of good supers GMing advice, sample character creation examples, combat runthrough, an introductory adventure, and quite a few pregenerated characters to use as heroes and villains. And the layout probably makes it easier for a newbie to reference things.

 

The system part is less detailed in 4E than 5E, although correspondingly less clear. The fundamental changes from 4th Ed. to 5th are relatively few - most of the changes are clarifications and expanded options, so an upgrade from 4th to 5th would not be difficult. In fact one of our fellow board members, TheEmerged, has summarized the changes between editions (with some interesting commentary) on his website:

http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm

 

There are quite a few BBBs around via used game dealers and eBay, so finding one shouldn't be difficult. The ones on eBay generally go for around $20 these days, if cost is a factor. If possible, try looking for the Champions Deluxe edition (stock #451); it's hardcover, well put together, and has a very good index in the back which the earlier editions lacked.

 

For editions earlier than 4th, IMHO they would be less useful to you. There are many significant differences in the system between 3rd and 4th Ed. that could trip you up later (although supplements and adventures written under those rules would not be too hard to convert). Some of the system elements are not as balanced as in 4E, and the range of options is much more limited. And the BBB just has too much useful stuff to pass up, whatever type of superhero game you run. So, if you're thinking of getting an earlier Champions, get 4E and upgrade to 5E as soon as you're ready. It'll be worth it.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Uncle Shecky raises some very good points. The Big Blue Book has some definite advantages over FREd for a newcomer: it combines extensive HERO System mechanics with lots of good supers GMing advice, sample character creation examples, combat runthrough, an introductory adventure, and quite a few pregenerated characters to use as heroes and villains. And the layout probably makes it easier for a newbie to reference things.

 

 

I agree. In fact, to ammend my earlier post, the BBB would be very useful to you. I'm not advocating NOT buying FREd, but as said, if cost is a factor....

That way, you get what you need, at a much lower cost. Then you can save your pennies and get the newer stuff as you're able.

[Stephen_H-G]

Hm. I think I was not very clear in my initial post!

 

I actually own two copies of Fred, the UMA and the Bestiary. The older copies of Champions were just a thought because I wanted something with less options; I figured that something geared specifically to superheroes might give me that. There is a LOT in Fred that does not apply to supers at all.

 

It may be a silly thought.

[Lord Liaden]

Oh! Well, in that case...

 

What you should really consider looking at is the the 5E Champions genre book by Aaron Allston. It's all about using the system to create supers campaigns: which rules options you should or shouldn't use in what situations, how to tailor the Powers to create common super effects (with bunches of examples), the common character archetypes, conventions of the different "ages" of comic books (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron), guidelines for players and GMs, plus a bunch of sample characters and other neat stuff.

 

The BBB will give you some of that, but not nearly as much, or as well organized. And there's just no comparison to the older editions of Champions.

[Stephen_H-G]

Yes, but that won't simplify Hero. Giving me more options is the opposite. I'm not looking to streamline Hero; to do that I have to do as much work as to use all the options!

 

Okay, here is a simple question that might give me what I need to know: What is the best edition of Champions prior to 4th edition and why?

[Stephen_H-G]

Okay, here it is. The clarifying post.

 

I know Hero 4th and 5th insided and out, including all the options. I don't want to streamline them; I like them the way they are. I want to get a game to use IN ADDITION to 5th that would be more simple from the get-go. I think an older version of Champions just geared towards superheroes may do that.

 

So, bearing that in mind, is my idea stupid? Keep in mind that I have never seen a copy of "Champions" before 4th edition.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think I understand what you're saying. You're looking for a previous version of the Hero System that is optimized for superheroes.

 

3rd edition Champions was simpler than 4th and 5th, and probably about the furthest back you'd want to go.

 

But... for the complete list of Powers and Disadvantages you'd want Champions II and Champions III, which were supplements. And there you've got three books, which about eats up any savings you've made by streamlining stuff. Not to mention that you're still missing stuff; those two books didn't add all of the Powers, Disads, extra rules, etc. that made it down this far. There were no fundamental changes between editions; at its heart it's the same system it was in first edition.

 

And then the costs for Skills, Powers, and Disadvantages aren't the same. Especially Skills; those changed a lot between Champions and Justice, Inc.

 

Top that all off by saying that 3rd edition Champions is really only more streamlined because it includes fewer rules. The "default" for Champions of no complex bleeding rules, no Hit Locations, no Impairing or Disabling wounds came about because those rules didn't exist in 3rd edition Champions; they came from the standalone Hero System games that came after.

 

So, if you're looking for a book you can hand someone and get a streamlined Hero System, for teaching purposes or similar, 3rd edition Champions is it. Use the Skills, Powers, Modifiers, Frameworks, and Disadvantages from 5th edition.

 

If you're looking for streamlined in play, just hacking out rules from 5th will do it.

 

(Actually, if you wanted to port the 3rd edition Martial Arts rules over to 5th edition, that would streamline stuff by quite a bit. E-mail me privately if you decide to go that route.)

 

Bottom line: The Hero System is really optimized for superheroes as is. That it ended up being useful for so much more, and that the core system has changed so little through five editions, is a testament to the foresight and design skills of the original Hero partners. If you want fewer options, just use fewer options in play, because using a previous edition of Champions is Hero 5th with fewer options, modulo the changes in Skills, Powers, Modifiers, Frameworks, and Disadvantages.

 

Whew! Sorry, didn't mean for this to be an essay!

[Stephen_H-G]

Thank you for the answer!

 

I see what you are saying; really maybe what I was trying to do was rationalize getting an old Champions so I can run it past my wife!

[Stephen_H-G]

I'm curious about this 3rd edition martial arts thing; how did it differ?

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Stephen_H-G

Thank you for the answer!

 

I see what you are saying; really maybe what I was trying to do was rationalize getting an old Champions so I can run it past my wife!

 

Ah, the old 'running it past She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed'.....

Been there, and it ain't easy. Luckily for me, I had it relatively easy. My wife and I have two kids born 10 months apart, so our time is pretty full. There's a restauraunt we used to go to every saturday, but had to stop going because the girls were too fussy and we just couldn't relax. since we would normally run up a 25-30 dollar tab, on my wife's suggestion, we decided to start staying home. Also on her suggestion, she said to set the money aside that we wouldve spent at the restaurant, and if it was still there at the end of the week, I could get a book online with it.....

 

Basically, show her that you can cut something unecessary (in her mind) in order to , hopefully, justify getting something important (at least, important to you anyway). Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Chris Goodwin]

The basics of martial arts were that you paid points equal to your STR for a single skill called Martial Arts. You got five maneuvers with it: Martial Punch, M. Kick, M. Grab, M. Throw, and M. Dodge. Grab, Throw, and Dodge worked like the current versions of those maneuvers. Punch did 1.5 times your STR damage and Kick did 2 times (I don't recall off the top of my head what the OCV and DCV modifiers were). You could pay half again your STR in points for an additional .5 times your STR damage, so that your Punch would do 2 times and kick 2.5 times your STR. As your STR got higher, Martial Arts in general became less efficient; I think 20-30 STR was about the most efficient it got.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Stephen_H-G

Thank you for the answer!

 

No problem!

 

I see what you are saying; really maybe what I was trying to do was rationalize getting an old Champions so I can run it past my wife!

 

Not a bad thing. Now that I think about it, S. John Ross wrote in a posting on RPG.net that he had picked up FREd and was sort of overwhelmed by the sheer size of it, until he picked up his old copy of Danger International. Understanding that there were differences between editions, he was able to relearn the basics of the Hero System through the smaller book, which gave him a good basis for going back to 5th Edition.

 

So, if you can find a copy of 3rd edition, that actually might not be a bad way to go about it, keeping in mind that there are many differences between the editions. I'd again advise that if you're going to do that, stick with 5th Edition costs for Powers, Skills, and such; you might pick up the GM Resource Kit because it has all of that stuff in a much smaller package.

[Stephen_H-G]

Just as a disclaimer (and so I don't get in trouble if she reads this), my earlier comments about my wife were a joke. She is a roleplayer herself (in fact, she knows Hero 5th almost as well as I do.) I don't think she'd mind getting an old copy of Champions 3rd for five bucks. She'd think it was a pretty interesting historical document.

 

So was there material in Champions II and III that did not appear in 2nd or 3rd edition?

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Stephen_H-G

Just as a disclaimer (and so I don't get in trouble if she reads this), my earlier comments about my wife were a joke.

 

Uh huh,... suuuuurre...

[Uncle Shecky]

Originally posted by Stephen_H-G

... So was there material in Champions II and III that did not appear in 2nd or 3rd edition?

 

Champions II and III are supplements to 2nd edition: everything in them is either an addition to or a clarification of 2nd edition rules. (I've never even seen a copy of 3rd edition, so I don't know whether it incorporates anything from Champions II and III.) Almost everything from those 2 books was included in the BBB, with a lot of little changes.

 

For example, Champions III introduced powers like Duplication, Damage Reduction, Knockback Resistance, Multiform, Shape Shift, and Transform. They aren't all identical to they way they are written up in the BBB, but they're basically the same powers. Other things in Champions III like the Mental Paralysis power or the Shockwave manuever were dropped from later revisions of the game.

 

You seem to want a simpler version of the Champions rules, devoted only to superheroes (not the universal system that HERO has become). 2nd edition might give you what you are looking for. (Archer might be right that 3rd is as far back as you'd want to go: I can't say.) 2nd edition is probably cheaper and easier to find than 1st, and they are basically identical anyway. Let me tell you a little more about it, so you can compare it with FREd.

 

There were only 12 skills in 2nd edition: acrobatics, climbing, computer programming, detective work, disguise, find weakness, luck, martial arts, security systems, skill levels, stealth, and swinging. That's it. No talents or perks either. A lot of those skills did the work of several skills now, e.g. Acrobatics included Breakfall, and Detective Work covered deduction, criminology, cryptography, etc.

 

There were 44 powers, compared to 65 in FREd. The 2nd edition powers were the basics you would expect: FLight, Energy Blast, Force Field, etc. Most them work almost exactly the same as they do in 5th edition. Most of the more offbeat powers (Duplication, Multiform, Absorption, Extra Dimensional Movement, Summon, Supress, Transform, etc.) are not there, though almost all of those were introduced in Champions II or III. The only power frameworks are multipower and elemental control. No VPPs. There are far fewer advantages and limitations: about 10 of each. Fewer disadvantages, combat manuevers, etc. No rules for vehicles or bases.

 

Characters were built on only 200 pts. in 2nd edition. That's not much, but you don't have to stick to it. We frequently built characters on 250-300 pts, and they would be closer in power level to 5th edition characters (but with far fewer options).

 

Overall, 2nd edition is a much simpler version of the same system. You could play it quite easily if you know FREd, and new players would be less intimidated by it. There are many characters you can't build, but if you have FREd, you can gradually add new powers and rules as needed. If you get a campaing going and eventually want to switch over to 5th edition, there will be a bit of work to do, but your players should be much more comfortable with the rules by that point. There's a lot of great new material in the later editions, but the HERO system is still basically the same as it was at the start.

[Lord Liaden]

Champions 3rd Edition was more fully detailed and better organized than the previous two, with better production values and several rules changes and clarifications, but still maintained the distinction between what it covered and what Uncle Shecky describes for Champions II and III. None of what those two expansion books covered made it into 3rd Ed. BTW, Champs II also included the vehicle and base building rules, which have significant differences from the current ones.

 

If you wanted a thorough understanding of pre-BBB Champions for conversion purposes, you should really get Champs 3rd Ed, Champs II and II. But as a simplified, self-contained superhero game, I agree with archer: 3rd Edition would be your best choice, as it splits the difference from all the others in terms of simplicity, quality and availability.

[DevoDog]

2nd vs 3rd Editions

 

For the most part, the rules in 2nd and 3rd editions of Champions are identical.

 

Depending on the version of 3rd edition, you might get the sample adventures.

 

Primary differences:

2nd Edition Shrinking/Growth: Affect DCV

3rd Edition Shrinking/Growth: Affect range modifiers

 

3rd Edition Elemental Controls: Costs calculated as per BBB & Fred

 

2nd Edition Elemental Controls: Costs confusing. Should be the same as 3rd edition + but wasn't clear.