Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

[Magmarock]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Now' date=' MIND CONTROL, that should be pretty much illegal.[/quote']

 

I think that Mind Control would be more useful than Telepathy under certain circumstances.

 

If a sanctioned Telapath used Mind Control to force someone to Tell the Truth about a matter, where witnesses are present to hear this evidence, it could be quite helpful. Compelling someone to talk and tell the truth per a judges orders or even in a court of law would be extremely helpful... especially for a hostile witness.

[Whitewings]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Might I suggest this alternative view of "invasion of privacy": In most comics, and in most SF, telepathy simply *happens*. Telepaths generally don't have to learn to use their powers, they have to learn how to not use them, and how to interpret what they recieve, but the ability itself cannot be "turned off." Thus, picking up thoughts is no more an illegal act than the previously cited example of looking at a girl taking a shower in the middle of the sidewalk. Sure, it's probably polite not to ogle her, but said ogling isn't a crime.

 

In Champions, it's different: Telepathy normally costs END, it's a deliberate action. Thus, it would be legally equivalent to a search of a person: You need probable cause, a warrant, or similar. Now you have a case for invasion of privacy. This view solves the problem neatly: If there are sufficient grounds for a physical search, then there are probably grounds for a mental one.

 

Oh, and on a tangentially related subject, in the issues I have of the current series, the Lasso of Truth forces the person holding it to tell the truth *even to themselves*. It also works without being in Diana's hand; it will work for or on anyone (except, possibly Diana herself).

[Magmarock]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Another point to consider, usually it's the dishonest people who object the most to having their thoughts read by a telepath.

 

If an honest person is charged for a crime, what better way to vindicate him (or her) if accused of wrongdoing? I don't see how an innocent person would have a problem with that.

 

 

Mags

[Whitewings]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Oh, and comparisons to the Lensmen novels are entirely inappropriate. Lensmen gain their Lenses only after they have proved themselves to be uncorrupt and incorruptible.

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Another point to consider, usually it's the dishonest people who object the most to having their thoughts read by a telepath.

 

If an honest person is charged for a crime, what better way to vindicate him (or her) if accused of wrongdoing? I don't see how an innocent person would have a problem with that.

 

I'd love to have the chance to *consent* to the Infallible Lie Detector if I were arrested.

 

But if I had to take it whether I wanted to or not, then that's a violation of my civil rights, IMO.

 

Basically, I believe that "Keep the frag outta my skull w/o an invitation" is a perfectly reasonable attitude for 'flatscans' to have re: telepathy. And that it's entirely possible for them to lobby their legislators to have such an attitude reflected in new law.

[dbsousa]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

As to whether Telepathy is a passive sense ("I was walking by his mind, and it just fell out!") or not, consider this: It requires an attack roll.

 

If this were my game, and I allowed the Telepath in the first place, the scenario would go like this:

 

Low Level VIPER agents don't have much to spill, but they spill it. The heroes have phenomenal success, and wipe out as many VIPER's nests in their hometown as they care to play out. VIPER strikes back with robots and shielded agents, but the heroes defeat them and capture a high level VIPER agent.

 

In the ensuing power vaccuum, PSI steps in.

[dbsousa]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Another point to consider, usually it's the dishonest people who object the most to having their thoughts read by a telepath.

 

If an honest person is charged for a crime, what better way to vindicate him (or her) if accused of wrongdoing? I don't see how an innocent person would have a problem with that.

 

 

Mags

 

If an honest person is accused of a crime, what better way to vindicate him than by (insert any civil rights violation here)...

 

Do you want to be stopped on the street by armed policemen to see if "your papers are in order"? How about letting the cops break into your home without a warrant? or tap your phone line for the next ten years? If you're innocent, you have nothing to hide...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Gicen we're talking VIPER...

 

I wonder what would happen in the real world if a person had telepathy, and used it to put a significant amount of hurt on a criminal/terrorist organization.

 

LEGALLY, a lot of that evidence may be inadmissible (if the person is a sanctioned law enforcement officer), and that individual may well be guilty of invasion of privacy (in either case). POLITICALLY, what do you think the fallout would be if our hypothetical telepath were charged and the terrorists went free? And how quickly do you think politicians would act/react?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

A further question: how does one convict a telepath? Specifically, how can you prove an individual has telepathy?

 

"How did you find the evidence, Ms. Mentalla?"

 

"We played a hunch. I am, after all, a precognitive."

 

Is there any law against psychics having precognitive flashes and using these? Now, there's still the issue of illegal B & E at the VIPER base,. but that doesn't single out only telepaths - a Brick who got his answers from a rogue VIPER agent has the same problem.

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> LEGALLY, a lot of that evidence may be inadmissible (if the person is a

> sanctioned law enforcement officer), and that individual may well be guilty

> of invasion of privacy (in either case). POLITICALLY, what do you think

> the fallout would be if our hypothetical telepath were charged and the

> terrorists went free?

 

Depends. Do those terrorists have a Legitimate Front that owns US Senators, or has them as members of the organization's board of directors? Do they have PR resources that can only be described as 'immense'? Would proper strategy for them have had them *already* stirring up anti-mentalist paranoia in the populace as best they could, already?

 

In VIPER's case, the answer to all three of the above is "Yes".

[freakboy6117]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

The problem in the case of most comic books is the shortage of telepaths whilst mind-controlling villains and precognition are quite popular actual mind reading is rare outside of the X men.

Most teams don't have an actual mind reader (JLA doubly blessed but not many others) I’m pretty sure I cant remember the avengers ever having one on the roster at least not for long.

 

Anyway in a world with only a hundred or so telepaths world wide would laws ever come into effect probably not you need a world with thousands before that would happen.

 

Now in a world where telepathy is rare you get a double edge sword it probably won't come up in court but you have to explain some other way that you came by that knowledge. On the other hand in a world where there are many telepaths maybe as many as one per 10 000 laws would have to be in place to protect the public and courts would have to operate a 3 telepath system with the court appointed telepath and open for each the defendant and the prosecutor who could validate each others scans.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

I think that Mind Control would be more useful than Telepathy under certain circumstances.

 

If a sanctioned Telapath used Mind Control to force someone to Tell the Truth about a matter, where witnesses are present to hear this evidence, it could be quite helpful. Compelling someone to talk and tell the truth per a judges orders or even in a court of law would be extremely helpful... especially for a hostile witness.

 

And very, very illegal if you are caught doing it, with the evidence very, very inadmissible.

 

"Right to remain silent" and all. To say nothing of the fact that, IIRC, involuntary mind control is treated as a form of lethal force. . .

[Magmarock]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Now in a world where telepathy is rare you get a double edge sword it probably won't come up in court but you have to explain some other way that you came by that knowledge.

 

All the heroes would have to say is that the criminal and/or villain 'told' them the information. Pretty simple. Sure the target would say, "But I didn't!" But who would take the villain's word over a hero's?

 

And if one can get a warrant to search premises for specific evidence, why not get a warrant to search one's mind for the same? Consider, if the mentalist fails, that would be documented in the villain's favor.

 

 

Mags

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> Anyway in a world with only a hundred or so telepaths world wide would

> laws ever come into effect [snip]

 

Laws vs. Mind Control would come into effect with only a hundred telepaths on the planet, why not laws vs. telepathy?

 

Hell, depending on how large and ugly the first test case is, and how much it horrifies public sensibilities, the minimum number you'd need could potentiall go down as far as one.

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> All the heroes would have to say is that the criminal and/or villain 'told'

> them the information. Pretty simple. Sure the target would say, "But I

> didn't!" But who would take the villain's word over a hero's?

 

By this same logic, no claim of police abuse could ever be successfully prosecuted. After all, who would take the word of a scumbag over a cop's?

 

Of course, that's not how it actually works.

 

> And if one can get a warrant to search premises for specific evidence, why

> not get a warrant to search one's mind for the same?

 

... errrr, the Champions Universe already *does* say that. Hell, I mention it in my very first post in this thread, and (not feeling pedantic enough to go back and get an exact count) possibly my second and third as well.

[Magmarock]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

My apologies. I've read all the posts, but it sounded like some people needed reminding.

 

No harm, no foul. And no need to be mean.

 

Mags

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

My apologies, then.

[Magmarock]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> All the heroes would have to say is that the criminal and/or villain 'told'

> them the information. Pretty simple. Sure the target would say, "But I

> didn't!" But who would take the villain's word over a hero's?

 

By this same logic, no claim of police abuse could ever be successfully prosecuted. After all, who would take the word of a scumbag over a cop's?

 

Of course, that's not how it actually works.

 

 

Accusations can be made by anyone. Sure they will be investigated, but without proof, they are baseless and thus, thrown out. That's how it works.

 

Police abuse usually had some detrimental physical effects, like bruises and broken bones, etc. to prove the abuse occurred. Reading a person's mind does not harm that person and so there is no comparison.

 

And, if the mentalist is authorized to do so, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

But the bigger question is, how does this all apply to The Horror's game?

 

 

Mags

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> But the bigger question is, how does this all apply to The Horror's game?

 

It doesn't. The past 50 posts or so have been thread drift.

 

... what? People don't do thread drift here? I thought it was an Internet universal thing.

[The Horror]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

Wow. Thank you very much everyone for a fantastic exchange of ideas so far. I'm sure to use a lot of them.

 

As for the situation at hand:

 

I am actually running two semi-interlinked campaigns. A superhero game and a villains game. The heroes are the first superhero group to make a public appearance in the US. They were assembled by a mysterious entity that contacts the heroes only via the telepath, and their primary objective is to apprehend Sirius - the master villain of the campaign.

 

The villain group are working for Sirius, and have as a job to organise the killing of every human being in North America. VIPER in my game has decided Sirius is a major threat, and has joined his organisation to ensure it's destruction from within. They form the European contingent of the Sirius organisation. VIPER is the main threat to the supervillain group, and at this stage nothing that the superheroes should be concerned with.

 

This last friday I ran the second villains game. The villains are behind schedule in their plans thanks to VIPER, with Sirius about to come on site next game to witness first hand the trial of the Gold Ray prototype (the villains plan on turning all the people in North America into gold via an orbital satellite). They were mightily pissed, so after discovering the location of the Chicago nest in the McGregor building, they charged in there and levelled the place (I've only made them come across regular VIPER agents thus far).

 

So I figured that the VIPER agent the heroes have captured can be from that same nest. Easy and simple. The nest is already destroyed and there is no need to worry about it. Then when they hand him over to the authorities I'll enwrap them in the legal mess they've created.

 

As for further VIPER involvement - my plan is that the telepath of the hero group is actually a direct descendant of Nama, and that the mysterious entity who assembled the group is actually Nama itself who contacts the heroine via her dreams. She will be instructed to let the agent go, and hopefully other than minor engagements with VIPER here and there they will follow on to topple Sirius. Later on as the campaign escalates she will slowly discover her relationship to the organisation (and that her grandfather was a member of the Council) and have to face all of the usual turn-to-evil-or-turn-against-her-own-blood type of dilemmas.

 

So I've settled the problem at this stage, but there is more coming. Next session the heroes will undoubtely capture one or more of the villain group's henchmen. All of the henchmen know exactly where the villains reside. It is too early for a direct confrontation. A rather better place for a first fight between a PC villain and the hero groups would be at the testing of the large scale gold ray into the upcoming G8 summit. So when the superheroine reads the minds of these capuptured henchmen, I can tell them anything I like as long as I don't reveal the location of the evil base.

 

I think I'm going to have to accelerate a bit the introduction of superhuman registration laws, and the offering to the group for government sanctioning if they accept to abide by the set laws. I can actually use their unfair treatment of the VIPER agent as a little bit of added pressure to entice them to join the government forces. All depends on how they handle the situation though.

 

Oh yes, somebody asked how many dice the PC has in telepathy. She has 13d6. When designing the character with the player I was under the distinct impression that it would be used mainly as a plot device (ie. find out where the secret detonator is when the villain tells them of his evil plans). Of course, once we got into the game none of the PCs actually seemed to want to behave like heroes. Eh. I guess I'll have to work with it. Worse comes to worse I'll have a chat to the player and decrease the number of dice in the power, freeing up some points for him to put elsewhere.

 

Thanks again for all the help everyone. It's all given me a lot of material to work with for the next few sessions.

 

 

 

The Horror

[freakboy6117]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

I don’t mean that they could never be but with that few telepaths on earth the chances of them coming out into the open would be minimized.

 

I know if I thought there where only a couple of people who could read minds on the entire planet and I know intimately how human beings think I wouldn’t want to draw notice to my self. Revealing your gifts could lead to a major clash with the majority of the population who fear your mental invasion.

 

Most telepaths would thus either work in secret for undercover organizations who don’t have to worry so much about where there information comes from or hide there gifts any who came out would be debunked as hoaxes maybe even by other telepaths trying to keep there existence hidden (strangely enough exactly how it works in the comics).

 

One major case of obvious mind reading could lead to laws being passed I think the obvious ones would be to make reading the minds of key public officials a crime equivalent too espionage, extending the fifth amendment to mind scans I.e. that there must be permission for the scan and any scan taken without consent would be inadmissible and probably a prohibited list of employment for telepaths.

(On the other hand you might not even need that a law demanding all telepaths to declare there capability on job applications would keep them out of the workforce. do you really want an employee who knows your cooking the books or having an affair?)

 

Really I think ordinary laws would just be adapted use mind powers to extract sensitive corporate data that’s theft. Use it too find out some ones having an affair and blackmail them well blackmail is blackmail no matter how you found out. Mind you the difficulty of proving that telepathy exists comes into it at least in the test cases.

 

As to the specific example of the viper agent sure you could use your telepathy to read his mind but if your officially sanctioned expect him to walk due to your failing to honor his Miranda rights. On the other hand any other evidence gathered from his illegal confession would be acceptable as long as you broke no laws gaining it. Busting into a viper base is ok if you have probable cause that a felony is being committed and lets face it their viper you always have probable cause. Or at least that’s my liited grasp of the law on this subject.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> The Justice League hypnotized the white martians and made them think they're humans, instead of turning them over to the lawful autorities.

 

That's because J'onn J'onnz, former chief law enforcement officer of the planet Mars, is pretty much the Martian head of state -- by dint of being the last surviving member of the Green Martian goverment. And the city of Z'onn Z'orr, where they were captured, was Martian territory, remember?

 

They *were* tried and sentenced in a court of law. A Martian court.

 

(And mindwipe is the Martian sentence for such things.)

 

Ignoring the issue of whether one Manhunter constitutes a Martian legal system, the white Martians committed their crimes on US soil as well as several other nations, all on Earth. Would they not realistically be subject to trial on earth? The United States would certainly try foreign nationals committing terrorist acts on US soil, not hand them over to their nation of citizenship.

 

The other issue is that these criminals were then implanted in various nations, without the knowledge or consent of the legitimate authorities. Do you think US Immigration would be inclined to say "Sure - imprison your hypnotized white martians here! The whole Green Card system's pretty much a fiction anyway!" It's like Canada decising housing our criminals is too much trouble - we'll just shep them south of the border after having them hypnotized into believing they're honest, upstanding citizens! This GWB would have any concerns?

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> Ignoring the issue of whether one Manhunter constitutes a Martian legal

> system, the white Martians committed their crimes on US soil as well as

> several other nations, all on Earth. Would they not realistically be subject

> to trial on earth?

 

Actually, the White Martians -- a rebel/outlaw/separatist faction of Martian society -- attempted to *conquer* Earth -- which kicks us right out of the realm of 'criminal law' and over into 'war crimes'.

 

At which point, might as well be J'onn as anyone. Hell, a certain recently deposed dictator is having his 'crimes against humanity' trial being done by the new government of his own country, isn't he?

 

[snip]

> The other issue is that these criminals were then implanted in various

> nations, without the knowledge or consent of the legitimate authorities.

 

Well, the JLA *are* the 'legitimate authorities', in a way -- but yes, the sentence was itself pretty stupid. I'm just saying that J'onn had as much legal right to make and apply it here as anyone else, and more than most.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> Ignoring the issue of whether one Manhunter constitutes a Martian legal

> system, the white Martians committed their crimes on US soil as well as

> several other nations, all on Earth. Would they not realistically be subject

> to trial on earth?

 

Actually, the White Martians -- a rebel/outlaw/separatist faction of Martian society -- attempted to *conquer* Earth -- which kicks us right out of the realm of 'criminal law' and over into 'war crimes'.

 

At which point, might as well be J'onn as anyone. Hell, a certain recently deposed dictator is having his 'crimes against humanity' trial being done by the new government of his own country, isn't he?

 

That new government being recognized as legitimate by the UN and the US, if I recall correctly. And the outcome of this trial, including tye sentence, will be public knowledge, will it not? Seems a bit difference from one (or seven) individuals with no vested political or legal power deciding on their own both guilt and sentence for a war criminal.

 

And where does one draw the line? "Conquer the world" = "obtain political p[ower via illegitimate means". Is tampering with a voting booth a "war crime"? Don't we need two sovereign nations, rather than a few individuals, in order to have a war? I don't recall the stopryline ever including a declaration of "war against Mars" by any Earth nation, but it's been a while since I read it.

 

[snip]

> The other issue is that these criminals were then implanted in various

> nations, without the knowledge or consent of the legitimate authorities.

 

Well, the JLA *are* the 'legitimate authorities', in a way -- but yes, the sentence was itself pretty stupid. I'm just saying that J'onn had as much legal right to make and apply it here as anyone else, and more than most.

 

Only if earth law would so permit. Where, in any DCU publication (post-Crisis) has J'onn's political or legal authority been recognized by any earthly organization? Where is the JLA granted the right to try and convict anyone? It is pretty common for its members to note they are not policemen, politicians or "judge and jury". Yet, in this case, they chose to convict and sentence with no involvement of any judiciary.

 

If it is morally wrong to use mental powers to locate a criminal organization's base (the premise this discussion began with), it seems hard to justify private trial and conviction, followed by use of more potent mental powers to strip away the "convict's" identity.

 

For that matter, let's consider the League itself. Anyone remember Superman or J'onn going through immigration? J'onn took over the identity of a police officer, so he has technically been impersonating a peace officer for decades.

 

As I stated earlier, a certain latitude comes with the four colour genre. In my opinion, the "telepathy issue" falls somewhere within this latitude, and it is not unreasonable for a player to expect to be able to use telepathy as was previously described. I consider the onus to be on the GM to address the moral and legal issues surrounding telepathy in his campaign at the outset. Obviously, in this case, the GM and player differ, and to me the answer is to set the parameters, probably in discussion with the players at this point, and allow the specific player the option of revising their character to reallocate the points spent on telepathy if, under the clarified ground rules, they no longer see the value in these points.

 

This isn't unique to mental powers. If my Human Torch character is, in your game, going to be considered a "fire hazard" and be at risk of arrest if he flames on in a populated area, this should be made known when my character is reviewed. It's a departuire from the reasonably expected 4 colour norm.

[Chuckg]

Re: Suggestions? Telepathic PCs just captured VIPER agent

 

> That new government being recognized as legitimate by the UN and the

> US, if I recall correctly.

 

In a way, so are the Green Martians. (Or at least their last surviving member...)

 

[snip]

> Don't we need two sovereign nations, rather than a few individuals, in

> order to have a war? I don't recall the stopryline ever including a

> declaration of "war against Mars" by any Earth nation, but it's been a while

> since I read it.

 

Given that the Pale Martians were the last 70 or so survivors of their race, and each one could single-handedly curbstomp continents, and they had a long career of razed worlds behind them, yes, I'd say they qualified as a bona fide invasion/war and not just a criminal gang.

 

> Only if earth law would so permit. Where, in any DCU publication (post-

> Crisis) has J'onn's political or legal authority been recognized by any

> earthly organization?

 

Given that it's only come up once...? (After all, there *ARE* no other surviving Martians besides J'onn and the Pale Martians...)

 

> Where is the JLA granted the right to try and convict anyone?

 

The JLA, as a team? Never. Several of their individuals, due to the positions they hold *in addition* to being JLA members? Yes.

 

[snip]

> For that matter, let's consider the League itself. Anyone remember

> Superman or J'onn going through immigration?

 

The US government has officially accepted the existence of Superman.

 

> J'onn took over the identity of a police officer, so he has technically been

> impersonating a peace officer for decades.

 

Yes, and the relevant authorities have demonstraetd a total nol. pros. on that one, so?

 

> As I stated earlier, a certain latitude comes with the four colour genre.

 

Even the CU roles I quoted state that, as witness sanctioned superheroes *not* having to do full Miranda rights, usage-of-force paperwork, and the other bureaucratic minutiae. OTOH, a line does have to be drawn /somewhere/, and drawing it at 'no non-consensual invasions of peoples' headspace' seems to be as reasonable a place to put the line as any.

 

> In my opinion, the "telepathy issue" falls somewhere within this latitude,

> and it is not unreasonable for a player to expect to be able to use

> telepathy as was previously described. I consider the onus to be on the

> GM to address the moral and legal issues surrounding telepathy in his

> campaign at the outset.

 

Agreed, and which is precisely what I plan to do the next time I GM. And precisely what the GM in my current game did with us.