Spiderman Vs. Firelord

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Because the Air-Walker robot duplicate (as opposed to the live one), which is acknowledgably less powerful than Firelord, got into a lot more fistfights than he did. i.e. -- we have more examples to use.

 

Exactly. Firelord doesn't stand and trade punches.

 

I wonder why that is.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Same reason the Silver Surfer doesn't, or Nova doesn't -- just not their style.

 

About the only two who *do* bother are Terrax ('cause he likes the battle) and the Air-Walker robot ('cause it was as dumb as a box of rocks).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Why are all the examples of how tough Firelord is actually examples of how tough Air-Walker is?

 

Because the Air-Walker robot duplicate (as opposed to the live one), which is acknowledgably less powerful than Firelord, got into a lot more fistfights than he did. i.e. -- we have more examples to use.

 

Firelord was less powerful than Phoenix, but it doesn't mean she stands up to a punch better than he does. The Air Walker robot was less powerful overall, but it was still stronger than Firelord's shown.

 

Maybe the reason Firelord doesn't get into a lot of fistfights is that he's just not suited for it - ie he gets punched out. I can't think of another fistfight he's been in (even my dim recollections of his Thor first appearances) other than the one where he gets punched out by Spiderman.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Firelord was less powerful than Phoenix, but it doesn't mean she stands up to

> a punch better than he does.

 

... an unprepared Dark Phoenix was once punched in the jaw by Colossus, and didn't even bleed.

 

Try another one.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

So your argument stands on a lack of evidence.

 

"I've never seen this guy take a solid punch, mind you, in fact he seems to avoid it as much as possible, but I'm gonna assume he's damn-near invulnerable because his second cousin sure is!"

 

The fact is, I can give an example of Firelord's lack of durability with respect to punches, and you thus far can't give a counter example.

 

I haven't read Firelord's Thor issues; as Hugh says, it stands to reason that if an example exists, that's where it'd be found.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Firelord was less powerful than Phoenix, but it doesn't mean she stands up to

> a punch better than he does.

 

... an unprepared Dark Phoenix was once punched in the jaw by Colossus, and didn't even bleed.

 

Try another one.

 

Yeah she was just knocked senseless, great example.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Firelord was less powerful than Phoenix, but it doesn't mean she stands up to

> a punch better than he does.

 

... an unprepared Dark Phoenix was once punched in the jaw by Colossus, and didn't even bleed.

 

Try another one.

 

First off, I said "Phoenix", not "Dark Phoenix". X-Men 105 range (come to think of it, has Firelord ever actually won a fight?)

 

Second, Dark Phoenix was in combat at the time, so I suspect she'd have her force field up - she's smarter than your average Air Walker robot. Without her shields, Dark Phoenix was annihiliated by a blaster weapon - less powerful, one would expect, than Kree or Skrull warship armaments.

 

[Can we say "fanboys"? ]

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

... actually, I was referring to the punch on the Blue Area, where she was only momentarily dazed -- and that was when she was subconsciously fighting to *lose*.

 

When was she knocked senseless again?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Without her shields, Dark Phoenix was annihiliated by a blaster weapon

 

Doesn't count -- that one was deliberate suicide.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Without her shields, Dark Phoenix was annihiliated by a blaster weapon

 

Doesn't count -- that one was deliberate suicide.

 

She had her shields down and she caused the gun to fire on her. Yes, it was deliberate suicide. It also demonstrates that, without her shields, she wasn't any (much?) more durable than any other human. Despite that lack of durability, she was still far more powerful than Firelord.

 

"Durable" is not a synonym for "powerful". You have been using them interchangeably.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Without her shields, Dark Phoenix was annihiliated by a blaster weapon

 

Doesn't count -- that one was deliberate suicide.

 

It does count because if merely being cosmic was enough to make her super durable, THE BLASTER WEAPON WOULD'VE NEVER HARMED HER no matter what her intentions were. That is what this whole argument is about isn't it?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

It does count because if merely being cosmic was enough to make her super durable' date=' THE BLASTER WEAPON WOULD'VE NEVER HARMED HER [snip']

 

Unless, of course, she'd deliberately staged a huge massive fight to drain *ALL* of her cosmic energy supplies, *AND* deliberately turned all of her defenses off and re-assumed her 'mortal' form instead of remaining in 'Dark Phoenix mode'.

 

... you know, like was explicitly stated in dialogue right there on the same page.

 

PS -- and no, none of the above applied to Firelord.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

(come to think of it' date=' has Firelord ever actually won a fight?) [/quote']

HAH!!

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Unless, of course, she'd deliberately staged a huge massive fight to drain *ALL* of her cosmic energy supplies, *AND* deliberately turned all of her defenses off and re-assumed her 'mortal' form instead of remaining in 'Dark Phoenix mode'.

 

... you know, like was explicitly stated in dialogue right there on the same page.

 

Which would've prevented her from using those powers to make the blaster fire in the first place, which she obviously does. Also if all her cosmic energy supplies were drained she wouldn't be able to manifest the Phoenix Force which she was doing when the blast killed her, to say nothing of the fact that the Phoenix Force cannot run dry without killing all the people who's psyche's form it in the first place. Furthermore, your point is moot because durability cannot simply be shut off.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Furthermore' date=' your point is moot because durability cannot simply be shut off.[/quote']

 

But even if we accept that it could, we could then posit that Firelord partially "dormed down" while playing possum and was thus less durable when Spidey unleashed his offensive.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Which would've prevented her from using those powers to make the blaster

> fire in the first place, which she obviously does.

 

Incorrect. Even without any cosmic energy in use, she still has the genes of Marvel Girl -- which means she has access to her base telekinesis. Which is all it take to make the gun go boom.

 

> Also if all her cosmic energy supplies were drained

 

... OK, let's just *completely* ignore the dialogue written RIGHT THERE ON THE VERY PAGE that SAYS EXPLICITLY that Jean staged the battle to drain enough of her energy supplies so that she could be vulnerable to the ancient weapons of the Kree.

 

Let's just ignore that.

 

Hell, let's just ignore everything that doesn't agree with you.

 

... or better yet, I can just ignore you. Because seriously, when I have the damn issue open right in front of me as I type and it absolutely does not agree with what you are saying at all, and yet you stubbornly refuse to admit it, my patience just plain *snaps*.

 

Oh yeah, and thanks for making this thread turn exactly into what the other threads turned into, because you simply could not admit that you were wrong.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

... OK, let's just *completely* ignore the dialogue written RIGHT THERE ON THE VERY PAGE that SAYS EXPLICITLY that Jean staged the battle to drain enough of her energy supplies so that she could be vulnerable to the ancient weapons of the Kree.

 

Let's just ignore that.

 

Hell, let's just ignore everything that doesn't agree with you.

 

... or better yet, I can just ignore you. Because seriously, when I have the damn issue open right in front of me as I type and it absolutely does not agree with what you are saying at all, and yet you stubbornly refuse to admit it, my patience just plain *snaps*.

 

Oh yeah, and thanks for making this thread turn exactly into what the other threads turned into, because you simply could not admit that you were wrong.

 

Fine, go ahead, ignore me. Suits me fine.

 

Little Chucky can't take somebody having a different opinion then his so he takes his ball and goes home.

 

Whatever.

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You're entitled to your own opinion.

 

You're not entitled to your own facts.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

You're entitled to your own opinion.

 

You're not entitled to your own facts.

 

Especially when they might conflict with what you want to be the truth eh Chuckster? Can't let a little thing like the facts upset your anal retentive world view after all and for the record, it's not I but you who's ignoring everything that doesn't agree with you and you've been doing it for quite awhile in this thread.

 

If you want to point fingers as to why this became like those other threads, perhaps you ought to look in the mirror?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Especially when they might conflict with what you want to be the truth eh

> Chuckster?

 

I suppose the part where I said that I have a copy of UNCANNY X-MEN #137 in front of me and that the text in it completely supports my contention that a) Jean committed suicide by using the fight to drain off energy to make her vulnerable just didn't register with you, right?

 

OK, fine, call me a liar. That's step one. Now *prove* I'm lying. That's step two.

 

But before you go to step two, try to get around this.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

 

... OK, let's just *completely* ignore the dialogue written RIGHT THERE ON THE VERY PAGE that SAYS EXPLICITLY that Jean staged the battle to drain enough of her energy supplies so that she could be vulnerable to the ancient weapons of the Kree.

 

Let's just ignore that.

 

 

Hasn't it already been ignored, ie retconned away? We know that wasn't Jean, but was instead the Phoenix Force masquerading as Jean. Can the Phoenix Force become...not-the-Phoenix Force? Can it really fight until itself is drained away and it is no longer quite itself?

 

I don't think it really matters one way or the other with respect to whether Spider-man can beat Firelord, but it does seem odd. Does Jean's "resurrection" in Fantastc Four have anything to add to "her" suicide?

[Chuckg]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

> Hasn't it already been ignored, ie retconned away?

 

The fact that it was not really Jean Grey is a retcon, yes.

 

... however, given that it was a /perfect/ clone of Jean (when not in Dark Phoenix form, at any rate), it doesn't make a whisker's bit of difference re: the *physical* abilities here, which is what we are arguing.

 

The death scene is also not in dispute, as the Phoenix Force did indeed gank its host on that date. (And fly off to get a new one, Rachel Summers.)

 

re: Fantastic Four -- nope. The Jean Grey hauled off the ocean bottom in FF had been there ever since the shuttle crash, and had never been Phoenix at all.

[Twilight]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

Hasn't it already been ignored' date=' ie retconned away? We know that wasn't Jean, but was instead the Phoenix Force masquerading as Jean. Can the Phoenix Force become...not-the-Phoenix Force? Can it really fight until [i']itself[/i] is drained away and it is no longer quite itself?

 

I don't think it really matters one way or the other with respect to whether Spider-man can beat Firelord, but it does seem odd. Does Jean's "resurrection" in Fantastc Four have anything to add to "her" suicide?

 

All I know is that the Phoenix Force is supposed to be powered by the psyches of everybody in the universe, that's why it's so powerful. Taking that into consideration, it'd be impossible for it to be drained in the manner Chuckster suggests without actually killing a large portion of the universe's population which I'm pretty sure didn't happen in that storyline.

[Agent X]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

All I know is that the Phoenix Force is supposed to be powered by the psyches of everybody in the universe' date=' that's why it's so powerful. Taking that into consideration, it'd be impossible for it to be drained in the manner Chuckster suggests without actually killing a large portion of the universe's population which I'm pretty sure didn't happen in that storyline.[/quote']Well, Chuckg is right on what the authors at the time were trying to convey about the Phoenix force. You are bringing up the inevitable quandaries when something that was all tied up into a neat little bundle in a solid storyline gets frayed by marketing decisions to reinvent the concept to allow for the concept to be exploited again. Ultimately, you can pick and choose the meaning because Marvel hasn't been particularly consistent. I pretty much ignored X-Factor because they brought Jean back and it broke one of my rules: If a hero dies a good death, leave them dead.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Spiderman Vs. Firelord

 

hey we can ignore anymistakes in the dioulouge on grounds that its cyclops saying it.

how does he know how the pheonix force actually works and hes just watch the woman he loves die infront of him he can be forgiven if he makes a few errors in his analysis.