Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

the benefit of the doubt i am giving him is that when he says he got exactly what he intended, he means it.

 

he chose to slow down their advancement, to stall their combat and magic advancement.

he chose to at that time set them in a situation where the sotry was interaction driven, information driven vs force or action driven.

he chose to set the game at that same particular time ina setting where the pcs has no language and as such the language would be an impediament to the interaction.

When this went on he seems to have not used any corrective measure to try and address the conflict between system and enjoyment his previous choices had created.

After it was done, he pulls out another system, possibly now we see even one he did not prefer over dnd, to try and move the players to it.

 

is any of that an incorrect assessment? is any of that a misunderstanding.

 

 

 

And DnD does not provide anyway to guage chalenges that are not related to combat, traps, or other non roleplay aspects of dungeon crawling. Perhaps I need to expand my wording a bit there...

 

It lacks anything on judging CRs. It provide a list of CRs for critters and traps - if you don't have a critter or trap, you've got no CR, and thus no XP.

it defines an even cr as an encounter the group should win but will cost them about 20-255 of thewir resources. it describes the party being able to handle 4-5 of these in succession.

 

it then describes how to advance the cr by increasing the risk.

 

these are not "lacks anything on judging crs"

 

have you read the book?

It's also not at all clear on what actions done to a critter give you it's CR. Would helping a level 10 rogue through childbirth give you a CR 10 reward? Have you thus 'overcome the challenge of her?' In this moment, the way that challenges is not made more difficult by her level, but by the situation...

no, helping the tenth level rogue would not give you xp for beating a 10th level challenge unless there were some reason that challenge was that difficulty.

 

hero suggests giving bonus xp for encounters that are difficult, adventures that are long, and so forth. But it doesn't tell you what this means. How do you determine if a encounter was difficult or just normal? The book doesn't spell it out for you... what do you do?

 

Again, isay, anyone who cannot figure out how to run dnd, should not be looking at hero as his gming system.

 

Assuming that the characters did advance at an ideal pace in the mentioned game... but not assuming that this is somehow bad GMing with suspicious motives...

actually, while it seems to be getting lost, my point is that the problems and frustration evidence stem from the GM making two decisions that collided to produce an unfavorable situation (slow advancement coupled with language barrier in a social adventure) who then refused to address those consequences with simple house rules or basic reasonable GM judgement calls.

 

if he had played the system, given xp for those very challenges he himself admits should have provided rewards, then the characters would have levelled up, gotten the opportunity to earn skills like the system expects and been able to avoid the long running frustration that ended up convincing them to drop the game.

 

his example is not an example of a system problem. if he had used the system, this issue would not have occured. His example is an example of choices he made stepping outside the system that produced a problem.

 

if you want to show the system is fault, by golly why not use an example where you used they system and it failed, as opposed to a case where you made a change that directly caused a problem.

 

That still ties any skill development to combat development - which might completely fail to match the story events and the needs of the game.

This is a better question.

 

now, let me ask you one in return.

 

Does HERo require xp expenditures be limited to "only things seen on screen, in the game?"

Does HERo restrict your ability to spend experience at all, beyond the large scale boundaries like is this a game where i can buy powers? is magic available in this world?"

 

or, is perhaps, that left entirely up to the Gm to decide, both in yes/no but other implementations?

 

If the GM does invent somereward for uncovering the secret of gunpowder after months of research and political scheming to keep your assistants and bed down with that wench who runs the taven across from your boarding house...

 

Why should any of that make you better able to kill somebody or avoid being killed?

Does HERo restrict you from spending xp gained for such on things like Cv levels?

 

Not only is the XP system thus flawed by the means I was discussing, but accepting your presumptions (save for the one that this GM has negative motives against his players) I still come back finding flaw with it.

have you gotten the impression that i think its flawless? did you miss the point that i havent used it for years, even in my dnd/d20 games?

And finally... the stepped nature of it. Months of nothing, then suddenly you're an expert on the fruit bats of lower Mandovia and can hold two swords with expert grace... all thanks to one last dead kobold, or having a fire trap blow off your mustache.

but hero prevents you from storing up xp to buy a new big thing, right?

The above all said... DnD is a playable game, but it is not the perfect game for everyone, and not what everyone desires to play, or this board would not be here.

absolutely. i personally have a good number of problems with DND myself and really prefer some of the better d20/ogl games that have come out of late, but figuring out how to give xp is not one of them (even tho i no longer use it) and i know enough to know not to blame the system for a problem my house rule causes.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Please go somewhere else with this crap.

 

and as if on cue, the "stop posting" gallery is heard from.

 

hmmm... my watch seems to be running behind...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

more like this is vintage hero... take a response i made in a post to someone else, in response to their post when the quote did not reference or apply to him at all and turn it on its head like its a personal attack ignoring the multiple times i credited him with deliberately doing what he wanted to do.

 

and then just watch the piling on begin.

 

i could set my watch by you guys.

Dude, you basically called him stupid because he didnt like D&D.

 

Dress it up however you like, but thats what it sounded like to me.

[schir1964]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Tesuji,

 

I'm confused by your posts. It seems that they are strictly defensive in nature at this point. What's the purpose of your posts now?

 

You've given your opinion. Youi're entitled to it.

 

Some have found the manner in which you stated your opinion to be offensive in certain areas.

 

For what purpose do you continue post then?

 

To change the minds of those you may have offended? I don't think that will happen.

 

You're not adding anything constructive, which is the primary purpose of these boards, at least that is why I come here to post.

 

Just not sure what the point is of going on arguing over whether or not your posts are offensive or not? In my opinion, that is what this has boiled down to.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

So the arguing aside...

 

Is the thread lost, or could we look into the issue of getting people interesting in, or at least trying out, the Hero system.

 

 

At tonight's session of DnD I managed to go 0 for 1 on this - I had two copies of Sidekick on the table, offered to loan one to the DnD player who has no knowledge of Hero, and got back that he'd prefer to wait until a final decision is made.

 

Of course, from my point of view, him being informed on what is in the choice helps the decision be made...

 

-shrug-

 

Thus why I wanted to try and push a copy of Sidekick off on him.

 

His major concern seems to boil down to not being able to use his DnD books if we switch over, whereas if I do even BESM d20, he can mostly use them.

 

Of course since my fantasy world has no Orcs, elves, gnomes, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, hobgoblins, or owlbears, and uses a new magic system... I'm not sure how useful those d20 books will remain once we switch from Kalamar to 'Fahla'.

 

At least today, as a step towards writing the setting, I identified the major 'themes', which I plan to post to some kind of development journal soon...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

arcady, I hate to say it, but it sounds like some members of your group are dead-set against trying out HERO, and that's that. If you give them the tools and the opportunity to test it and they don't take them; if you ask them to trust you as GM to make this work, and they won't; then I'm afraid they won't willingly follow you on this. If you want to or have to continue gaming with this entire group, I see little choice beyond accepting that.

[BlackSword]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Sorry to hear the first attempt went so poorly. Guess a few questions (the answers may have been lost when the SNR of the thread got too high for me).

-How long has your group been together?

-Do you only play D&D or do you play other genres?

I can understand the players concern if he has a lot of money invested in D&D supplments, but the same would be true if you played d20 Spycraft vs D&D. If he is concerened about having to invest in another system, just tell him that Sidekick is the only book he will need since you are building the world. Will they allow a middle ground, where the game switches week-to-week (or by month, or by adventure). Anyone else in the group interested in GMing a game so you can switch off between then (I offer that so that you are not stuck running two games simultaneously if they do agree to two games)?

 

Frex, our group is fairly schizophrenic. We rotate GMs, and play various systems. Typically we play Hero in a home-brew world, but the current GM is running a Spycraft scenario and next I will run a generic Star Hero game. But then again we get together to mainly hang out, drink and have a nice break in the week.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Dude, you basically called him stupid because he didnt like D&D.

 

Dress it up however you like, but thats what it sounded like to me.

 

shrike...

i may be wasting my time but...

 

check the facts...

 

it wasn't in a post to him.

i wasn't responding to him.

i was responding to another poster who brought up the case of less talented gms.

 

no matter how much "hey lets get tesuji" mojo you got goin' this morning, you cannot turn that comment towards him with any reasonable notion.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Ok, lets see if i can cool this down.

 

I apologise to keyes bill.

 

when i responded to arcady's comments starting with

 

But many of us feel uncomfortable there, or lack that talent, or lack the energy to 'work it all out'. When there's another choice that does give an XP system that works for this issue - it just makes it easier to toss the first one out.

 

with this

 

"but, i really really must say, that if a GM is so underskilled as to not be able to figure out how to award xp in dnd for anything but monster situations, I really really do not want to direct him towards running HERO, a system on the whole a lot more complex and which relies on the Gm to be the much more on the ball in case after case for chargen, powers, balance etc. I mean, if he cannot gauge the challenge level of a social duel because he doesn't have hit dice, how in the heck is he going to have the wherewithall to keep things in line when the NND AOE autofires start flying?

 

I am sorry, HERO is many things (some good and some not so good), but its not the game for novice GMs or Gms without the "talent" level needed to run DND."

 

I DID NOT intend for keyes bill to take that response (in a message responding to comments from someone else) as a personal attack on him. It was not intended as an insult towards him in any way.

 

In case it is not clear, as i stated repeatedly already, keyes bill was indeed experienced enough to know that his challenges should have produced xp. he did not fit into the category arcady was bringing up and that i was responding to at all.

 

in the same post, i clarified several times, here is one...

this is not a case of a GM giving out too little xp because he misunderstood how to give out XP.

 

this is a case of a Gm giving out exactly the amount of xp he wanted and his players (and perhaps he) not liking the results (due to a conflict with his setting/scenario demands) and then springboarding off that to move to his preferred system.

So, again, I apologize. It was not my intent to insult keyes bill with that response to someone else who brought up Gms lacking talent and apparently i failed to take into account that keyes bill could take it as such a personal insult.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

more like this is vintage hero... take a response i made in a post to someone else, in response to their post when the quote did not reference or apply to him at all and turn it on its head like its a personal attack ignoring the multiple times i credited him with deliberately doing what he wanted to do.

 

and then just watch the piling on begin.

 

i could set my watch by you guys.

This is B.S. Tesuji. You distorted his statements. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

and as if on cue, the "stop posting" gallery is heard from.

 

hmmm... my watch seems to be running behind...

You're not foolin' anyone.

 

This is what I said, "Please go somewhere else with this crap. I know you are doing your level best to twist his words with your responses but Bill Keyes has a point. If you don't want to hear it don't read his post. If you do want to hear it and don't agree with it, give answers to what he is actually saying instead of changing the meaning of his post. I think I and a lot of people on these boards don't have the patience to humor the kind of tactic you are using in response to his posts."

 

Notice the "Please go somewhere else with this crap." Notice the "with this crap" part. I'm not asking you to stop posting. I'm asking you to stop using these craptastic tactics that are dishonest and transparent to anyone with a reasonable amount of education and intelligence.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

So the arguing aside...

 

Is the thread lost, or could we look into the issue of getting people interesting in, or at least trying out, the Hero system.

 

 

At tonight's session of DnD I managed to go 0 for 1 on this - I had two copies of Sidekick on the table, offered to loan one to the DnD player who has no knowledge of Hero, and got back that he'd prefer to wait until a final decision is made.

 

Of course, from my point of view, him being informed on what is in the choice helps the decision be made...

 

-shrug-

 

Thus why I wanted to try and push a copy of Sidekick off on him.

 

His major concern seems to boil down to not being able to use his DnD books if we switch over, whereas if I do even BESM d20, he can mostly use them.

 

Of course since my fantasy world has no Orcs, elves, gnomes, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, hobgoblins, or owlbears, and uses a new magic system... I'm not sure how useful those d20 books will remain once we switch from Kalamar to 'Fahla'.

 

At least today, as a step towards writing the setting, I identified the major 'themes', which I plan to post to some kind of development journal soon...

He doesn't really need any books. If the guy doesn't want to become familiar with new rules through study he can describe what he wants and let you do the work. If he's not willing to allow the GM to run the game of the GM's choice, bye bye player.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

This is B.S. Tesuji. You distorted his statements. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence.

 

you seem to be confused. the response was about the percieved insult about his intelligence, which I did not make, yet have apologized for.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Notice the "Please go somewhere else with this crap." Notice the "with this crap" part. I'm not asking you to stop posting. I'm asking you to stop using these craptastic tactics that are dishonest and transparent to anyone with a reasonable amount of education and intelligence.

 

Well, now that thats cleared up...

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

you seem to be confused. the response was about the percieved insult about his intelligence' date=' which I did not make, yet have apologized for.[/quote'] Nope, not confused. My post had to do with a lot more than the bold-faced comment about skilled and unskilled GMs. My post had to do with the way you distorted Bill Keye's comments.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

He doesn't really need any books. If the guy doesn't want to become familiar with new rules through study he can describe what he wants and let you do the work. If he's not willing to allow the GM to run the game of the GM's choice' date=' bye bye player.[/quote']

 

While i certainly do disagree with the tenor of this message, i do admit the player will probably be happier finding a Gm whose preferences and goals are more in line with his own. i, myself, have on occasion had to tell players to seek other Gms or that our styles were incompatable.

 

heck, just last year I had to tell one of my longest running players that I felt he should not be in my stargate game because, from past experience, he has a BIG THING about hating having his character captured. (he nearly quit a game of mine because i introduced his PC to the already going game as a prisoner they rescued (wth him never having to roleplay a minute of "being captured.")) Anyone familiar with stargate knows that being captured is fairly common, as common as escaping in fact. :-)

 

Anyway, net result, a player and a Gm who share the same interests in game will be happier than ones which do not. So, maybe the player would be better off with a different GM more similar in goals. and preferences.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Nope' date=' not confused. My post had to do with a lot more than the bold-faced comment about skilled and unskilled GMs. My post had to do with the way you distorted Bill Keye's comments.[/quote']

 

then perhaps it would help if you did not quote text from the other subject in your posts?

 

quoting the comments and responses about the "less talented GMs" and chiming in only to later do the "but i wasn't talking about that" stuff can get people confused, even not-less-talented Gms. :-)

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

While i certainly do disagree with the tenor of this message, i do admit the player will probably be happier finding a Gm whose preferences and goals are more in line with his own. i, myself, have on occasion had to tell players to seek other Gms or that our styles were incompatable.

 

heck, just last year I had to tell one of my longest running players that I felt he should not be in my stargate game because, from past experience, he has a BIG THING about hating having his character captured. (he nearly quit a game of mine because i introduced his PC to the already going game as a prisoner they rescued (wth him never having to roleplay a minute of "being captured.")) Anyone familiar with stargate knows that being captured is fairly common, as common as escaping in fact. :-)

 

Anyway, net result, a player and a Gm who share the same interests in game will be happier than ones which do not. So, maybe the player would be better off with a different GM more similar in goals. and preferences.

Or the player could stop whining when the guy who does the bulk of the work finds a system that they find easier for them to manage.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

then perhaps it would help if you did not quote text from the other subject in your posts?

 

quoting the comments and responses about the "less talented GMs" and chiming in only to later do the "but i wasn't talking about that" stuff can get people confused, even not-less-talented Gms. :-)

I don't believe the distortion of Bill Keyes' statements ended with one post.

 

Anyway, I understand what you are getting at about the whole group and trying to meet common ground. I think the criteria for common ground is genre and the story to be told, not the system used. That's a nuts and bolts issue that the GM will have the bulk of the burden of dealing with.

[proditor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

While I've avoided this conflagration till now, something from a few pages back has been seriously bugging me. The statement that XP given in a game (Tesuji's IIRC) is a set amount, no bennies or bonii, whether you even show up or not.

 

Um...why???

 

I'm sure most of us have been in games with the guy that is very late, doesn't tune in and only wakes up when the words "Roll your init" are spoken. The guy who sits in the corner drawing while everyone else figures out the mystery or talks to the NPC's. The guy not built as a combat monster who still barely leaves a mark in the developing story.

 

Now please tell me, if some of the other PC's are RPing great, really in character and brainstorming good ideas, etc....why is the human potato getting as much XP as them?

 

Maybe I'm totally off the wall here, but I run a meritocracy. RP well, get more XP. Have the brain firing on all cylinders and make me have to think as you alter the plan? Get more XP. Don't show up for the game? No XP. I allow NPCing of characters if there is a legitimate reason, but seriously, why on earth shoudl someone either not there or who is not contributing anything beyond CO2 to the room get as much XP as the people playing their hearts out?

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Sorry to hear the first attempt went so poorly. Guess a few questions (the answers may have been lost when the SNR of the thread got too high for me).

-How long has your group been together?

-Do you only play D&D or do you play other genres?

 

Two players I've known since 97 when I formed a Champions group. Two I've had since early 2003 when I formed a Mutants and Masterminds group.

 

So those four are all used to and know classless leveless alignmentless roleplay.

 

A fifth player is on sabbatical for the summer on a sports team of some kind - softball I think.

 

A sixth player is new, and was supposed to join last month but had to delay till next month.

 

These two are DnD people only to my knowledge, but I believe the complete newbie might be more adaptable. They do not figure however, in my persuasion attempts. A switch to either BESM d20 or Hero will lose me the softball player - he's DnD only to the core. Howeverone of those two options has to be my choice...

 

 

They've all (the active four) said 'we'll go with whatever you think works best for your setting'.

 

But to me watching them say it that sounds like 'resigned to the situation' rather than 'we'll go with what you choose.'

 

Three of the active players know Hero. One of them seems to like it, enough that he's also taken part in this half off sale. One of them now prefers rules-light such as BESM (and GMs the other - who finds BESM not tactical enough), the third has decided Hero is a complex nightmare with a skill system that makes no sense (she argues that skill levels for example - represent nothing concrete, they're just mechanics and numbers games. I countered by comparing them to DnD feats like Power Attack and Expertise.)

 

The fourth player has no Hero experience, is is concerned over the usability of his DnD collection. He's the one I tried to get to borrow a copy of Sidekick (and normally I never let one of my books out of my site).

 

I also know that the player who actually likes Hero has reservations over the nature of magic in my setting - it's dangferous, unpredictable, mysterious, and spiritual. He prefers the predicable, always works, fully known nature of DnD -'sure mysterious is good for fiction, but in a game you want to know what your character can do and do it reliably' is sort of how he phrased it.

 

So I may have a little work there, even if I use BESM d20 - because the magic system will be defined by the setting.

 

 

I've got them to be willing to accept the game, or a test run thereof. Getting them excited about it escapes me... They tend to strike me as 'sticks in the mud' at times - playing the same characters since the game began, and turning down all past offers to switch to new games, even after a month long hiatus or a game stalling into sessions and sessions of nothing. Me on the other hand, I like variety.

 

I told them recently that I'm just not one of those 'mono-game-ous' gamers... If something didn't change to spice things up soon, I was going to abandon the character I played in the one game I don't run (DnD, run by the fourth active player who passed on Sidekick) just to get some spice going.

 

Maybe I just get restless, but that's a real issue as well. Using my own setting will at least let me spice it up from session to session to less restriction.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Or the player could stop whining when the guy who does the bulk of the work finds a system that they find easier for them to manage.

 

well, for my money, i never found it a good thing to put myself above the players in such a sense as this. Everyone is there to have fun and so i consider their views on "whats fun" to be as important as mine.

 

The "gm first" sense you seem to express is not by any means unique to hero, but i dont agree with it any more or less when its coming from the stargate boards or the enworld boards.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

 

While I've avoided this conflagration till now, something from a few pages back has been seriously bugging me. The statement that XP given in a game (Tesuji's IIRC) is a set amount, no bennies or bonii, whether you even show up or not.

yup. thats me. advancement regardless of performance. advancement on a clock.

Um...why???

because the purpose of "advancement" in my game is to allow the characters to progress and grow as the story evolves. It is intended to maintain a steady pace that keeps the "power up" of the characters in line with the "power up" of the scale of the story.

 

It is not intended as a carrot, or a stick, or as a reward for those who suck up to me or those i like. (Well, Ok the $20 offer still stands but so far no takers.)

I'm sure most of us have been in games with the guy that is very late, doesn't tune in and only wakes up when the words "Roll your init" are spoken. The guy who sits in the corner drawing while everyone else figures out the mystery or talks to the NPC's. The guy not built as a combat monster who still barely leaves a mark in the developing story.

Ok let me start with the most obvious case... mr no show.

 

We are adults round here. if you join my game, its because you want to play. missing a game is its own downside... you do not get to play. i expect attendance but allow for the reality that sometimes life intervenes. Your kid gets sick and you come to the game instead of taking care of him i am likely to throw you out.

 

if someone's attendance is too erratic to be innocuous, i talk with them about whether they can afford to commit to the game and usually they take off for a while until things play out.

 

All of these things work to address the problem.

 

I have never ever in my life had a player change his mind about coming or not coming because of XP.

Have you?

 

I dont need to let that players REAL LIFE PROBLEMS become an issue IN MY GAME WORLD on a permanent level by mucking with his advancement. We are not fifth graders who need gold stars and time outs in the corner.

 

Late? One of our guys is traditionally late. not to the game, to everything. he has a phobia about being idel so he always waits until the last possible minute where, if everything goes right, he can be there barely on time.

 

We learned long ago to not take it personally.

 

Do i dock his Xp? Nope, we just start. he misses some of the fun.

 

thats his self imposed penalty.

 

All docking him xp would do is to drive his ability to play with us down the drain as his character started losing ground with the other characters. he would feel out of whack and they would be "penalized" by having weaker support.

 

I will address the playing favorites issues a little further down.

 

Now please tell me, if some of the other PC's are RPing great, really in character and brainstorming good ideas, etc....why is the human potato getting as much XP as them?

because primarily the reward for them being more involved, being more productive comes out IN GAME WORLD by them doing more, getting things done easier and succeeding more readily while the reward IN OUR WORLD for these is they are having more fun and getting their egos stroked and all that.

 

Have you ever, in all your years, had someone come up with a good idea because they wanted the bonus experience points?

 

All the things you mention, "good" roleplaying (usually defined as "like the GM prefers"), creative, etc provide their own benefits in game and for the gamers enjoyment. They are their own reward. The advancement system which scales the power level of them and their teammates does not need to hinge upon those elements.

 

Giving Xp bonus for "you roleplay like i want" or "i liked your idea better so its "creative" and all the other favorites IMX does not ever lead to anyone ever changing their spots. The slacker is NOT going to suddenly take an interest because he is losing Xp and the good roleplayer is not going to stop roleplaying because she doesn't get a bonus in CHARACTER POWER with Xps!!!

 

What will happen (more often in my experience than not but by no means 100%) is that the slacker may well, if the game doesn't drive him off (which, BTW, docking him xp might well do as it makes him feel put on the spot by making him weaker than the others) is give him the chance to see the others having more fun and get him to perhaps slowly move in the direction the others are.

 

Maybe I'm totally off the wall here, but I run a meritocracy. RP well, get more XP. Have the brain firing on all cylinders and make me have to think as you alter the plan? Get more XP. Don't show up for the game? No XP. I allow NPCing of characters if there is a legitimate reason, but seriously, why on earth shoudl someone either not there or who is not contributing anything beyond CO2 to the room get as much XP as the people playing their hearts out?

 

i guess i run a "fun-ocracy."

 

Someone consistently playing at the level you are mentioning would not be playing. someone not contributing anything would be asked to find another game. i say this because you used the extreme, when i really think you mean those contributing less than you would like, but still contributing.

 

In my games, some of the players participate more than others. They do so because they enjoy doing so. They get out of it what they put into it and docking the other player xp for it would not in any way make either of them "better" at roleplaying or change their spots.

 

So, if its not going to change the behavior and not going to improve the play, why hinge the advancement system on something like that?

 

I have had the luxury of seeing some of the same people playing in games where we did do roleplaying reqards, did awards bonuses for journals and web pages, given "best of the night" awards and in systems where we did not. It did not make a whits difference in player styles and participation and enjoyment.

 

All it did was, over time, generate an advancement gap which meant the less involved player had less to work with and the more involved players had less and less support. No one was helped.

 

maybe your group is different. Maybe you have had guys who roleplayed well "for the experience" who would only roleplay "good" if bonus pts were involved?

 

I haven't.

 

So i let the advancement issue be just what it is supposed to be... a clean and simple mechanism for allowing character advancement and change at a reasonable pace in keeping with the story and leave all the other sutff to handle in other ways.

 

so far its woked fine... better than any other advancement method i have ever used.

 

then again, our ages range from 30-60's (he wont say where in the 60's) with the mean in the forties (thats my neck of the woods), and our "rookie" player is a grandmother in her 50's so we are not your typical gaming group.

 

Anecdote about the "rookie": She related the story from her daughter. her daughter was in class at college waiting for the teacher et al and discussing her husband's balder gate 2 play with another student when a guy sitting behind them interjected and asked "So, do you play DND or just the computer games? i play DND." To which the daughter got to reply "Sorry, I don't do the roleplaying just the computers..." then grin her coy grin and finish "but my mom and stepdad play dnd every tuesday with their friends!" She then just looked on innocently as he tried to process that, watched the meltdown begin, and turned back to class.

 

Maybe i should have given her bonus XP for that one.

 

Oh wait, i do have one other bonus Xp thing. One of our players puns too frequently, so i have promised that if anyone hits him hard enough to bruise after one of his puns i will level their character on the spot.

 

again, no takers so far. though many have popped him one, just not hard enough. he has threatened to walk in arm in a sling and have his wife just hand me her levelled up character sheet, to start a game session off right.

[Magmarock]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Of course since my fantasy world has no Orcs' date=' elves, gnomes, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, hobgoblins, or owlbears, and uses a new magic system... I'm not sure how useful those d20 books will remain once we switch from Kalamar to 'Fahla'.[/quote']

 

This might not have occurred to you, but maybe your friends want "orcs, elves, gnomes, goblins, dwarves, gnolls, hobgoblins, owlbears" and the familiarity of a magic system they know and love.

 

Your might be able to convince them to switch the system, if the setting isn't too different from what they are used to. Just a thought.

 

 

Mags

[schir1964]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Tesuji,

 

After reading your most recent posts I've come to the following conclusions (of course any of these conclusions may be erroneous since I'm only going on the scant amount of information you've given):

 

1) Obviously you have a unique group of players that you game (FTF) with. Sounds like most are very mature and very forgiving of each other. However, I don't believe such groups of players are the norm. I would guess that most if not all your players are older than twenty. As such your experiences with such players (mature players) and methods described can not be applied to other groups of players. Therefore you advice to another GM may have little relevance to thier situation.

 

2) Obviously you have strong confidence in your own decision and methods. Therefore, I doubt you would allow yourself to be a GM of a group of immature players. Based on your post, I would suspect that if you may have created an environment to drive away immature players. This approach may have helped create a group of players as described in my first point above.

 

3) As GM you have created a certain style of gaming that you are comfortable with and that your current players are comfortable with. Your ideas of how your game should progress and it's goals are enforced by you. Which is as it should be. If you think that every character should gain the same amount of experience regardless in you game, then that's great. If you have a player who disagrees and thinks it shouldn't, I doubt you will change your campaign rules for that player or even all of them, if they so wanted.

 

However, this doesn't prove or even support the notion that your style of play is any better than anyone other GM's. But that is how you are coming across in your posts, whether you intended to imply that or not.

 

Good luck with your gaming, but I see no constructive purpose in continuing to post in a manner that suggests that your gaming style is better than someone elses.

 

Just My Humble Opinion (8^D)

 

Good luck to everyone in thier games.

 

- Christopher Mullins