Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

[arcady]

I've been letting my Hero collection gather dust for the past few years.

 

Last Monday I bought fantasy Hero - 5 days now - in order to take the genre and setting building ideas.

 

But in the process the Hero bug has begun to bite again, as I realize most of the things that I did not like in Champions are not major issues in Fantasy Hero and other genres.

 

Now I still own the previous two editions of Fantasy Hero, which I bought the day they came out in both cases.

 

The problem, is that while I have two Hero fans among my players, I also have one ex-Hero player who rejects its conventions even more than I have, and two 'if it ain't DnD or d20, why should I bother?' players.

 

Players who've seen the size of the core Hero book, heard how slow champions plays out, and seen the complexity of building powers or spells to do what sounds so simple - like page 145's draining cuffs or page 175's potion of giant strength or even the long pike on page 141.

 

Face it, Hero is intimidating. The book is so big that the first reaction non Hero players have when they see it on my library shelf is usually some expletive, followed by some comment about having to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table to touch it.

 

With the three examples above, they all read easy to those of us who know Hero system well, but to an outsider they scream 'overcomplex'.

 

 

So I face an uphill battle.

 

 

I know Hero can do an amazing job with fantasy, and I want to show them this. But I do not want to come across strong. If I 'rub it in their faces' I will only turn them off more. I've met many players since moving away from the Hero circle who told me tales like 'I thought about trying it, but then I met some of the people who play it'. Not that Hero players are bad people - but they have a rep for coming across as fanatics.

 

My players have all heard my stories of running a 12 hour real time combat (5pcs v 5npcs all at 250 Champions 3rded pts), or of an average Champions combat taking 3 to 4 hours. The two people in my group who are still amicable to Hero are players from my last Champions game - they were there and like me know it was not inexperience as like me they all started with Hero in the early to mid 80s. My ex-Hero player has her own similar stories from a seperate gaming community.

 

Into that, I have to convince them that trying Fantasy Hero would not bog us down at the same level, that it might even play as fast as DnD.

 

I have to find the features that might show it off as a better choice than DnD. I have to find a way to get them to 'learn a new RPG'.

 

 

My present strategy is to get in a one shot game. I've managed to get that on the table, so I will have a 5 hour window in which to get up that hill.

 

I've also started pushing, as of today, "Sidekick" - hoping I can get one of them to buy it before the damaged 50% off copies run out.

 

In that short time slot, and in the discussion I have with them between now and then, I have to find ways to get the Hero bug to bite enough of them to away group opinion over.

 

Trying to counter the negative assumptions listed above won't work, as they all come from the personal experience of members of this group (whether or not other people on this board have faced them). At best, I will be able to claim they are issues Champions has but other genres lack - such a claim will then require me 'proving it', which I'll have to do in a hostile platform where at least one person will probably be subconsciously working to see it fail, and several will come in jaded before the first die roll hits the table.

 

Thoughts?

[Lord Kilsco]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

You will find some thoughts about this subject in this thread :

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19352

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Honestly? I wouldnt bother trying to entice them. If they dont want to play HERO then it will just make for an unhappy game.

 

My advice would be to either play the game your friends like, or find a group that wants to play the HERO System and play FH with them.

 

Transitioning to the HERO System will only work if the players "buy in" to it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Okay, I'll try to give some specific suggestions:

 

To the people who think HERO players are fanatics, you could try telling them: "I play HERO - these two from our group play HERO... are we fanatics?" Assuming the naysayers know you (and you really aren't fanatics), that argument should be telling.

 

For the D&Ders who want to know "why bother": ask them what kind of character they've always wanted to play that they couldn't in that system? What combination of abilities they wanted it to have, what kind of flashy combat maneuvers they've always wanted to play out, that the system just wouldn't support? Then show them how easily they can do it in HERO.

 

As a counter to concerns about the pace of combat, try showing them this sample combat for fantasy. Just scroll down a few posts.

 

If they're concerned about complex builds... well, while I hesitate to suggest buying yet more books, you might consider the Fantasy HERO Grimoire. That has tons of premade spells described in plain English in terms of how they look and what they do, as well as game mechanics. Your players can pick what they want without having to think about construction. Factor in the package deal templates from FH for "classes" and "races", plus the new Talents (aka "feats") and your D&D players should feel right at home.

 

Alternatively, you might use Killer Shrike's excellent High Fantasy HERO website. Here you'll find many of the familiar concepts from D&D translated to HERO terms, and tons of ready-to-use material.

 

I hope that helps. Good luck.

[nexus]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

The cynical, bitter part of me says "Don't bother". But the best advice I can offer is do most of the "work" yourself. Make package deals (classes), make the spells and write down the bare minimum of details yourself, etc. Let them get into the game and forget about the mechanics if you can. Run it as if there were levels, then slowly introduce the idea of customizing their characters. I've seen that work wonders.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

The cynical' date=' bitter part of me says "Don't bother". But the best advice I can offer is do most of the "work" yourself. Make package deals (classes), make the spells and write down the bare minimum of details yourself, etc. Let them get into the game and forget about the mechanics if you can. Run it as if there were levels, then slowly introduce the idea of customizing their characters. I've seen that work wonders.[/quote']

Yeah, my web site contains a ton of material for exactly that purpose (http://www.killershrike.com), and Ive brought a lot of players into the HERO System over the years, particularly via Fantasy.

 

However, converting an existing group containing people hostile/adverse to the system will almost certainly see the group fracture.

 

 

I would strongly recommend starting your game seperately and recruiting ppl that are interested in it instead. Some of your current group might come along for the ride as well.

 

Trying to "sell" to a group that is strongly weighted against it wont work, and will end badly IMO.

[Lord Kilsco]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

As I said in the thread I already told about here, you must talk with the players. They explain what they want, and you design the technical solution with them.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Prepackaged Spells ought to do the trick and, if you are worried about long combats, get rid of the speed chart. Everyone gets an action each phase. Recoveries happen after every 4 phases. If someone wants to swing more often make them use rapid fire and sweeps or autofire if they're not intimidated by advantages.

 

Oh, and make pretty character sheets that hide the number crunching on the "traditional" character sheets.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

As a counter to concerns about the pace of combat, try showing them this sample combat for fantasy. Just scroll down a few posts.

I looked at that, and I noticed it starts out on phase 12, but never says why, and in the first action it says 'wants to hit a hex' but never says what that is.

 

In other words, it uses Hero jargon, and I would have to preface any email I sent them telling them to look with a lot of definitions.

 

 

I'm pondering collecting their DnD characters (they leveled last Wednesday anyway, so I have an excuse), converting them, and then running the regular DnD game for a session using Hero.

 

That, or I take in ideas, make a cast of characters, and run perhaps one of the scenerios out of Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds - perhaps the Inn.

 

The third option is that I sit them down for character creation. This shows the real power of Hero, but the complexity without any dead orcs also risks scarring them off.

 

I'd prefer bringing this group over to Hero above recruiting, as they're a good batch of players I've had for a while now - they're mostly the players in my Mutants and Masterminds game with the exception of two. I've got them for two games I run, and one I play in run by one of the DnD 'why bother' people [who's experience with Hero is limited to horror stories told as gamer humor by the Hero players in the group... Oops -yeah, I am now going to be working to counter my own medicine].

 

 

I think my other two Hero players could go either way - I could get them behind me with not too much trouble. My other ex-Hero player is the most adamant against it, and will take more work than the DnD people. She's said she never wants to deal with -that system- again, and when I said Fantasy plays out different, asks if it 'still suffered from too many VPPs' which made me wonder who she played it with before - previous editions of Fantasy Hero from what I recall avoided the VPP.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Oh' date=' and make pretty character sheets that hide the number crunching on the "traditional" character sheets.[/quote']

 

I think that presentation could be key. I've done JI for D20 adicts with great success. I made up the sheets to look as D20 as I could and presented the system mechanic as needing to roll a modified 11 or better on 3D6.

 

Modifications arise from player characteristics and skills, positive when they are acting negatively when defending.

 

I have attached a file that should hopefully give an example of one of the characters from the game (I did it in Powerpoint originally and have had to save it as a gif to post it here).

 

 

Doc

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

 

 

I'm pondering collecting their DnD characters (they leveled last Wednesday anyway, so I have an excuse), converting them, and then running the regular DnD game for a session using Hero.

I think this is a BAD idea. The reasons are:

 

1. everyone will come in with expectations about what they can and cannot do with their already well known characters. HERo and DND wont translate those abilities the same way in every case, so everyone will be working against a new system, trying to relearn how to say the same thing in a different game's language and even then not getting to do what they already "know" they can do.

 

2. HERO's strength is not that it can emulate DND, but the other things. It actually doesn't emulate DND all that well. Don't run a game where you are focusing on reinventing DND but go for something else. use something that highlights the strength of the versatility.

 

Think of it this way, if everything goes right, you will have convinced them HERO can do DND. That is not going to necessarily equate to urging them to move to HERo.

 

What you need to do to have a chance of convincing them that HERo is worth the effort is to show them what HERo does that they WANT that DND does not offer them.

 

So, let me ask you something.

 

Why do you want to move the game to HERO from DND?

What are the top ten things you wanted to do in your DND GMing that you cannot do there that you can do in HERO?

What would be the features you would want to highlight as "this will be more fun for you" in HERo than in DND?

 

If the answer is just something like "i got hero books and want to use them!" or "I just like hero more!" then you are simply selling the system, so grab the guys who are fine with the system and go for it.

 

But if there are solid things using HERO will let you do that playing in D20 wont, that you can see and can show will be fun, then you have something to hook the guys for whom having HERO stamped on their character sheet makes no never mind.

 

So, why do you want to switch to HERo?

What does it offer that you are missing?

What can you do (and do for your players

the answers should be the focus of your sell.) in HERO that you cannot get to work in DnD or D20?

[BlackSword]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I glanced through the thread and didn't see a mention of Sidekick. If they are intimidated by the big black book, Sidekick is a much condensed version and gets rid of some of the more complex options. Its $10 for the book, and it might be an easier and less intimidating way to introduce people. It has had great success in teach new players the system, and it sounds like for many of the gamers in the group it might be the only book they need. What other system can they buy into for $10?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Personally I find that bright lights and food/water deprivation work wonders. Sometimes I play good GM bad GM too...

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Let me start by saying I'm a big D&D/d20 fan, but I'm well aware of it's limitations.

 

Ask them if they've ever wanted to play a balanced and playable fighter/mage.

 

Ask them if they've ever wanted to make their own spells and be pretty darn sure of the power level without much guesswork.

 

Ask them if they want their characters to be powerful because of their abilities or their accumulated treasure.

 

Then hand them a copy of Sidekick and walk away for a few minutes.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I say start a game for your two Hero fans. Have it run on days you're not normally playing with the whole group. Then you and your two players can talk up how cool the game is when you're waiting for the other game to start.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I say start a game for your two Hero fans. Have it run on days you're not normally playing with the whole group. Then you and your two players can talk up how cool the game is when you're waiting for the other game to start.

That's pure wily evil coyote guile there. I approve, most definitely.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Such a strategy would mean I would first have to cancel the DnD game and thus boot out my regular players who've been loyal to my table since early 2003, in favor of two that while I've known since 97, only one of them has been regular since the current group formed, and the other just rejoined with me last Wednesday.

 

I'd rather not split my group, and rather not go through the process of weeding out the local drug users again to get a new group [and in forming my current group, I had to dump two people over issues of drugs, and two for hostile attitudes - recruiting is a pain, and it's easier to game with friends and people you know - you just have to persuade them over to desired systems]...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

As I said in the thread I already told about here' date=' you must [b']talk[/b] with the players. They explain what they want, and you design the technical solution with them.

 

This is profoundly good advice. I certainly can't top that.

 

Here's one thing that Hero has over most level-based systems: you can create a competent character right at the start. Sure, you can start a D&D game at level 6 or whatever, but personally I really like being able to make up exactly the charater I want right out of the gate, being able to focus on exactly the skills I want, and being good at them right off.

 

Killer Shrike's advice is excellent, as well (and that web site is just astounding): if you try to force them into it, they'll resent it. It won't go well. It's much easier to invite players into a fun, established game than it is to get people to try something new, even when they aren't predisposed against it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Here's one thing that Hero has over most level-based systems: you can create a competent character right at the start. Sure' date=' you can start a D&D game at level 6 or whatever, but personally I really like being able to make up exactly the charater I want right out of the gate, being able to focus on exactly the skills I want, and being good at them right off.[/quote']

 

This presupposes you have sufficient points to achieve the level you decide constitutes "competency". If I read CKC, against whom do I benchmark to achieve "competency"? Certainly not Dr. Destroyer, but that's an obvious one. Probably not Eurostar. "Competent" is a very subjective term.

 

In many (most?) level based systems, there is a rules presupposition that "Joe Normal" is lower-powered than even a 1st level "hero character". This exists in Hero as well - "Joe Average" has across the board stats of 8, where our "hero" characters start with 10's across the board.

 

Killer Shrike's advice is excellent' date=' as well (and that web site is just astounding): if you try to force them into it, they'll resent it. It won't go well. It's much easier to invite players into a fun, established game than it is to get people to try something new, even when they [b']aren't[/b] predisposed against it.

 

A suggestion that occurs with the above: Don't suggest "Let's play Hero because it's better. d20 is just a weak sister to a TRUE RPG like Hero." You're bound to meet resistance from the players who like d20. Instead, suggest a Hero game because it is different from d20. And play something outside your usual d20 game. That could mean a different genre, or simply a fantasy world where the ground rules differ from D&D.

 

I'm, always amazed at people who decide to play Hero, then spend their time figuring out how to use it to clone an existing game system.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Well perhaps I should say to all of you some of why Hero has been occuring to me as a good choice...

 

And if I can convince you guys I ought to use Hero, then I have grounds to consider it further, and see if it would work with my players.

 

DnD has a very limited magic system - I like most of d20, and I can play it just fine, but my idea of fantasy is influenced by a different set of fiction authors (*see below), and the fact that I used to be an occultist and came -this- close to joining an order that's been around for a wee bit over a century before my path in life changed...

 

My core concept on magic has been to build an elemental based system. It's described here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19507

http://www.iguardians.net/boards/showthread.php?t=2241

 

It needs to be a lot more freeform than DnD's system, a lot less predictable, and somewhat dangerous to use. I try to work my ideas into DnD's magic system, I started my fantasy world as an attempt to make a DnD compatable world - but it fails every time - I just can't wrap my creativity into that shape of a box. When I run DnD, I have to use a published setting, because I can't make one that works in it's norms.

 

It's being shaped out of the work in my fiction:

http://www.fictionpress.com/read.php?storyid=1644229

(that being 'chapter zero' of an upcoming novella)

Also hosted here:

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/859942

Where reviewers have given 4.5 out of 5 stars.

 

I'm remaking my fantasy setting:

http://home.pacbell.net/arcady0/fahla/

And plan to stat it out for three systems: Hero, BESM, and BESM d20.

 

Each of those has appeal to me for different reasons. I can reasonable make the magic system I desire in all three.

 

Hero appeals above the others for it's lack of levels, classes, and alignments.

 

None of my players like alignments. They all multiclass like crazy. A new guy joined last week (one of the two Hero players - he was part of my last Champions group in 97) and the joke at him was over him being single classed so far at level 4.

 

Levels bother me because over time they -force- the tone of the game to change, even if the story is not going in that direction. What makes for a fun adventure for a group of level 1 d20 characters is not going to be a good choice when they're level 20, nor even when they're level 5.

 

Hero scales up, but it does it very slowly and often the adventure that worked at the start of the game will still be playable two years into the game. What governs it then is story elements, and not point totals.

 

Gradual progression. Let's face it, leveling bothers me - you're there at A one day, then Z the next. I want the alphabet in between. I like that in Hero you change slowly over time, getting better at things in a gradual smooth progression.

 

In the old days, I could lambast the turn a minute nature of AD&D, and the lack of tactical combat in that system, but this element has been fixed in d20. It also becomes my biggest -problem- with a switch to Hero - will Fantasy Hero play slower? I've told them I don't think it will, that the things that make Champions slow are not there in Fantasy Hero. I hope I'm right...

 

Creative control is the big reason for all three of my system options - you have full design control of the characters with point based systems that allow you to put together the characters and creatures you desire. BESM and BESM d20 have simpler engines than Hero, but they are not as well thought out. BESM d20 has the tactical nature - but it also has the levels. BESM is very simple and freeform, but it lacks tactical variety. The player who just joined my game has been running a BESM fantasy game for the last year (one of my other players is in it, but I am not.) and the comment I keep hearing from him and that player is that they've been disapointed with how lacking in tactical play the system is.

 

So...

 

I want to consider Fantasy Hero because it seems the best way to address:

1. The magic system of my fiction, brought into an RPG.
   
2. The scaling by story and not by game progression.
   
3. Gradual Progression over levels.
   
4. The design control of characters.
   
5. The way my players seem to have trouble fitting into the classes.
   
6. Our group distaste for alignments - we may desire a more thourough exploration of personality.
   
7. Our need to a game engine that allows tactical play without sacrificing any of the other concerns.

 

I think that's the list as it stands in my head.

 

Authors I read:

Barbara Hambly, Tanya Huff, Maggie Furey, Louis Cooper, Robert Jordan, Mercades Lackey, Jo Clayton, and looking through my collection - it seems mostly women authors. Tolkien never cut it for me -though I did read him he was not to my tastes, and I've rarely been able to finish any DnD fiction book I tried to read.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

My long-term DnD 3rd game switched to HERO because we were tired of only getting new skill points when you leveled, instead of at logical breakpoints.

 

The straw that broke the catalopas' back was during a long adventure which didn't have much combat (it was a murder mystery), so the characters weren't gaining many XPs. They were in this tiny hamlet for something like 4 months, and none of them spoke the local language. Because it costs skill points to buy a new language, and because skill points only come at pre-determined points in the game (when you level), and because the characters weren't leveling, it took months (real time and game time) before anyone was able to speak to the locals. Several of the players even made a point to mention how they were continually trying to learn the language. It was a very frustrating experience, and as soon as the adventure ended, we switched over to HERO.

 

If your group has a frustrating experience like that, it might be easy to bring it up as an incentive to try a new system -- "Look where DnD falls down; maybe a different system would be smoother here?"

 

Bill.

[Old Man]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

During my short run as a Fantasy Hero GM, I noticed that for new players you really should do as much work as possible for them. It helps to avoid the "overwhelming" bits.

 

You're looking for flexibility? Hero pretty much has it. Being able to custom build your character should apeal to your players as they seem to like multi-class characters. You could also let them know that they get compensated for being "lawful good" (Honorable 20 pts, Common, Strong / Uncommon, Total).

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Allow me to give you the devil's advocate level responses you will need to perhaps be ready to answer...

 

The magic system of my fiction, brought into an RPG.

 

off hand, why isn't a lot of what you describe possible by you inventing a couple of classes and dropping the current magic using classes. There are a lot of varieties of magic systems for fantasy D20s which make lots of options, including the systems in Midnight and Conan.

 

The scaling by story and not by game progression.

 

The scaling is a matter of how much Xp the Gm gives and what level the characters start at. if a Gm starts Fh guys at 25+25 and gives 3-5 xp per session you will see radical changes in their "level" over a year.

 

If you want progression in DND similar to FH at 75+75, start the heroes at 5th level (or higher) and set Xp awards level them maybe a level every three months, maybe slower. The rules do not dictate where a campaign starts or even how fast it advances. The Gm decides that, both in HERo and D20.

The design control of characters.

DND and D20 tend to allow and encourage class alterations, in addition to multiclassing. Rather than ditching all the classes and building from scratch, why not allow/take-advantage of changing classes to fit the character concept?

The way my players seem to have trouble fitting into the classes.

See above. Classdes are meant to be altered to fit the character and campaign. Just look at the varieties in say midnight.

Our group distaste for alignments - we may desire a more thourough exploration of personality.

then drop alingments. A good number of d20 games do. Make personality a matter of character and choice. it doesn't need to be part of the accounting system, at all.

 

for instance, i came up with a simple mechanic for tendencies in my non-alignment d20 games.

 

I can say from my experience, seeing the same players generate character for FH, HERO and D20 games, that i got better, richer, more story provooking character backgrounds and characters when they were doing d20... where the character personality and background was not "accounting system" based at all. Everything generated in the background and story parts was done "just for fun" and not a part of "how many points in psyche lims" accounting.

 

 

Our need to a game engine that allows tactical play without sacrificing any of the other concerns.

 

d20 provides tactical play, more in some setting, less in others.

[Old Man]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Heh, the REAL question is, if you're only a player, how do you convince the GM that he should switch from DnD to HERO?

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

FWIW, in D20, you get Xp for challenges, not combats. A mystery story should, or rather could, feature as many challenges of the mystery solving variety session by session as a combat one should and those would provide as much Xp as well.

 

if you got little XP, it wasn't because of d20, but because your GM cut down on the challenges he was presenting to you. perhaps he did not realize how to script non-combat challenges or did not know how to (or that he should) give Xp for them.

 

but regardless, there is no reason in d20, or dnd 3.0 that a mystery adventure in a village should result in advanacement lag solely due to story focusing on non-combat challenges.

 

To any experienced DND player, this would not be a good example of "why switch to hero?"

 

I mean, think about it... the same Gm could give you no experience in hero for the non-combat encounters, right?

 

as an aside...

 

of course, not being an expert myself but remembering my language classes in high school and college, taking more than a couple months to learn a foreign language (while doing other things) does not sound all that far off.

 

How long after your characters moved into the village would you have felt your characters should have gotten conversationally fluent in the language?

How quickly would it have been possible/legal in HERO? IIRC, assuming no similarity adjustments, couldn't you have become basic conversational after one session?

 

 

My long-term DnD 3rd game switched to HERO because we were tired of only getting new skill points when you leveled, instead of at logical breakpoints.

 

The straw that broke the catalopas' back was during a long adventure which didn't have much combat (it was a murder mystery), so the characters weren't gaining many XPs. They were in this tiny hamlet for something like 4 months, and none of them spoke the local language. Because it costs skill points to buy a new language, and because skill points only come at pre-determined points in the game (when you level), and because the characters weren't leveling, it took months (real time and game time) before anyone was able to speak to the locals. Several of the players even made a point to mention how they were continually trying to learn the language. It was a very frustrating experience, and as soon as the adventure ended, we switched over to HERO.

 

If your group has a frustrating experience like that, it might be easy to bring it up as an incentive to try a new system -- "Look where DnD falls down; maybe a different system would be smoother here?"

 

Bill.