Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

[teh bunneh]

I dunno if this thread is officially dead, but...

 

To get this thread kinda back on track...

 

Arcady: Before I ported my game over to HERO, my players and I sat down to have a little heart-to-heart about the nature of the game, what we all wanted out of it, where it was going, and so forth. It was pretty clear that the system wasn't handling our needs, so we needed to come up with a solution. Should we rethink the concept that we started with, scrap the game and start a new one, change the system? All were considered, and everyone got a chance to have their say.

 

In the end, we decided that we liked the characters and we liked the concept -- there were still plenty of good games that we could create together. So the decision was to change the system.

 

I have a couple of HERO-philes and a couple of HERO-phobes in my group. No one actively hates the system, and we've all got at least a passing familiarity (no one, especially me as GM, wanted to learn new rules). It wasn't hard to make the choice -- though there was some concern (mostly regarding my free time!). HERO takes a lot of up-front work, but I was willing to roll up my sleeves for the game.

 

Now, if I were in your shoes, I would bring my game to a graceful and conclusive halt -- let the PCs achieve their goals, let them destroy the evil empire... basically, bring the game to a satisfying conclusion. Don't port your game. Start a new one.

 

Second, I would schedule a gaming session in which there would be no gaming -- it would just be a big chin-wag to talk about the last game, what people liked, what they didn't like, what they'd like to see/do/play next. Make sure you listen to what they say. Take notes. Use these notes as the basis for your next game -- your players' brains are your most valuable resource as a GM!

 

Assuming no one else volunteers to take a turn in the GM chair (always give someone else a chance, that's my motto!), I would tell them that I have a great new concept for a game, new characters, new setting, new world. I would describe it in great detail, letting my love and enthusiasm show through. Get them excited -- talk about the world, the magic, the races, the monsters, the history, everything that is bouncing around inside your head. If you love it, if you're excited about it, then they won't be able to help getting excited, too.

 

Don't mention the gaming system at this point. It's not important. What *is* important is to get them thrilled at the idea of gaming in the world that you're creating. Once they start talking about what they're going to play -- "I'm intrigued by the idea of these dino-men. I think I'd play a shaman who's been kicked out of his tribe." "Me? I want to play a magma-mage! Fire spells, yeah! Boom!"

 

(If they insist on talking about things like character class, you can either tell them to not think about "class" right now (you'll get to that in character creation), or you can just listen and take notes about the type of character they want to play. You're not going to worry about classes, but they don't really need to know that -- just as long as they can still play a "kickass fighter!").

 

At that point, you can either write up characters for them (simplified, as some have suggested), or schedule a character generation night where everyone can get used to the process and the system. Use Sidekick, not FRed to make the characters (they really don't need to know the detailed stuff, and you don't need to get into it).

 

It might take them a few sessions to get used to the new rules. Go easy on them the first few times. Give them all a free character re-write if they find something that they need but forgot to buy. You do all that, and I almost guarantee that they'll love the game.

 

At least, that's how I do it -- and it always seems to work pretty well. Give it a try.

 

Bill.

[proditor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I'm only going to respond to one point since I can see that a middle ground is never ever going to be reached here as I think you are completely off base, and continuing this is going to just result in 15 screens that are mostly smoke and mirrors. You have your style and it works for you. Great, more power to you. Please quit making grandiose assumptions about other people's games though, it's insulting.

 

You said "i run a fun-o-cracy" and then leapt to the conclusion that my good RP award was handed out solely by me to the player that played the way I like.

 

Wrong. Meritocracy. Advancement by merit. In this case, decided by one's peers. Everyone in the game gets to vote for who they thought RPed the best, and since my group is in fact adults, they are brutally honest about themselves and each other.

 

Quite obviously your mileage has varied.

 

Remind me to be thankful for my group again.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I'm going to send this to my group:

There's a couple ways I can handle the 'Fantasy Hero and BESM d20 playtests'.

 

1. I convert the Kalamar PCs over and we try a session. I've been told this is the worst option - you'll quickly find what I didn't convey right or what Hero missed, yet be too used to the characters 'as they ought to be' to see what's new or what gets done better.

 

2. I make a set of generic fantasy character and run you through a mini adventure. We all know how fast our pace is though, so I'll probably have to make it very small.

 

3. We do character creation for generic fantasy, and then as per number 2. Expect this playtest to take two sessions.

 

4. I make a set of characters designed to fit the Fahla setting, and then run a short mini adventure. Now we're 'testing two things', but it will reflect the final flavor more. This test will also take a lot longer to prepare as I have to finish the setting revamp first.

 

5. We do character for Fahla, then a mini adventure. This is possibly the best 'get it all down' option, but it has the 'will take two sessions' problem, the time to get ready problem, and honestly - you guys get too attached to your characters and would probably end up thinking those playtest characters will work for the regular game...

 

All in all, if the Kalamar game wraps before the Fahla game is ready - there will be a period where I stop running fantasy for a while. Possibly just doing MnM. I hope to sync them up time wise to be as close as possible, or ideally have Fahla ready to go long before Kalamar wraps up.

 

But we'll see.

 

I do plan to prep Fahla for both BESM d20 and Hero. As a whole system, fantasy hero works better. There is one feature of BESM I like more though - I can let a level one character in that system cast a spell way beyond their normal limits, and then punish them for it. I'm still trying to figure out how, in Hero, to have two people come together in a ritual and double (or less of an increase) the power of the spell they cast together, or even a single mage push a lone cast spell beyond their normal limits.

 

It is an aspect of Fahla that many of the mages in it's history have pushed beyond their normal limits by burning themselves out, sacrificing others, or whatever. If you have Conan OGL - think of what they had there for sacrifice...

 

If I wrap my mind around a simple way to do that in Hero, it pushes me that much more in that direction.

 

If I had time, I would run separate games of each.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

-[info pending]-

That's how it works. You get some substantive answers and some tangential posts you have to wade through. That's how forums work. Most of us, whether we have duelled with Tesuji or not, have actually given advice we intended to be practical and have continued to do so.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

 

Please quit making grandiose assumptions about other people's games though, it's insulting.

grandiose? What was grandiose about my response? a little loong maybe and the anecdotes were perhaps not needed but were fun.

You said "i run a fun-o-cracy" and then leapt to the conclusion that my good RP award was handed out solely by me to the player that played the way I like.

Yes, I did assume it was you making the decisions about who got the RP.

 

Could i possibly have gotten that idea by you stating that you ran the meritocracy and never mentioned the players being involved in the decision at all?

 

Was that a woefully outlandish conclusion to reach based on the limited info you provided?

 

if you feel so, thats cool.

 

Apparently it was an incorrect conclusion about who makes the decisions.

 

thats fine.

 

if you were offended that i felt you made that decision, i apologize. i wss incorrect in that assumption.

 

 

Wrong. Meritocracy. Advancement by merit. In this case, decided by one's peers. Everyone in the game gets to vote for who they thought RPed the best, and since my group is in fact adults, they are brutally honest about themselves and each other.

thats really cool, and has that whole bonus xp changed peoples play?

 

did roleplayers suddenly start up because they saw some bonus xps in the works?

 

or did you find that the roleplayers roleplayed because they wanted to and not for the xp?

 

did slackers suddenly spring to interest because there were some bonus xp in it for them?

 

is this common?

 

did any of the points i raised when answer your question about why i do not deal with "i liked it" xp awards change because the decider is your gang and not just you the GM?

 

ME, i have been there, done that and cannot ever recall a single case where i went "man, that who,e bonus xp thing helped me there." I can think of a couple where it hurt, but not egregiously so. All in all, it was just extra work, tracking those xp. Work for little gain, IMX. Thats why i don't use them anymore.

 

thats in any system.

 

this is not a hero thing.

[proditor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

*Shrug* I can think of at least a dozen times in the first 6 months that I implemented the change that someone said "Man that really helped. I levelled!" or something similar. And the group was happy because they thought the player had earned it.

 

One person did pay more attention. They didn't leap in for the extra XP, but over time, they also got back into the game and started racking up frequent player points.

 

One person didn't. After a year she still had to be reminded how Sneak Attack worked after playing rogues exclusively, 10 hours each week, for said year. She kept drawing ponies and gradually fell behind, regardless of several sessions with other players and myself on how to be an effective rogue by the rules, as well as me pulling her aside and asking if she was having fun. She seemed shocked that I asked and said she was having a blast.

 

Since one of the two blossomed into a very solid roleplayer, I considered it well worth the effort on my part to have players at differing levels of XP. That's not even mentioning that one of the most solid PC's was an enchanter so that bonus XP got made into items that improved the group as a whole.

 

In my book, that's a solid win.

 

As I said, your mileage has obviously varied so I honestly don't see a point in continuing this line of discussion. The important thing (really) is that both of our PC groups are presumably happy, and so are we as GM's.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

 

 

grandiose? What was grandiose about my response? a little loong maybe and the anecdotes were perhaps not needed but were fun.

 

Yes, I did assume it was you making the decisions about who got the RP.

 

Could i possibly have gotten that idea by you stating that you ran the meritocracy and never mentioned the players being involved in the decision at all?

 

Was that a woefully outlandish conclusion to reach based on the limited info you provided?

 

if you feel so, thats cool.

 

Apparently it was an incorrect conclusion about who makes the decisions.

 

thats fine.

 

if you were offended that i felt you made that decision, i apologize. i wss incorrect in that assumption.

 

 

 

thats really cool, and has that whole bonus xp changed peoples play?

 

did roleplayers suddenly start up because they saw some bonus xps in the works?

 

or did you find that the roleplayers roleplayed because they wanted to and not for the xp?

 

did slackers suddenly spring to interest because there were some bonus xp in it for them?

 

is this common?

 

did any of the points i raised when answer your question about why i do not deal with "i liked it" xp awards change because the decider is your gang and not just you the GM?

 

ME, i have been there, done that and cannot ever recall a single case where i went "man, that who,e bonus xp thing helped me there." I can think of a couple where it hurt, but not egregiously so. All in all, it was just extra work, tracking those xp. Work for little gain, IMX. Thats why i don't use them anymore.

 

thats in any system.

 

this is not a hero thing.

Could you possibly start contributing anything to this thread besides sarcasm and cynicism toward virtually every other poster? Your need to belittle others who use different methods of roleplaying by constant insinuations and tapdancing was tiresome the second you started it.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Could you possibly start contributing anything to this thread besides sarcasm and cynicism toward virtually every other poster? Your need to belittle others who use different methods of roleplaying by constant insinuations and tapdancing was tiresome the second you started it.

 

at this point, i may well have run out of timepieces.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

at this point' date=' i may well have run out of timepieces.[/quote'] Well, why don't you think about why you get this response? It's not like many others who are posting on these boards do. I know you were asked to stop commenting on Hero over on rpg.net. Do you see a pattern?

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

...

 

So...

 

moving on...

 

I've got my plan of attack for trying to get them over to Hero.

 

I personally think the player who's worried about his DnD collection will prefer Hero once he knows it - I just have to get him to get that far without antagonizing him first.

 

It looks like, when I read the parts of the thread before the ... well, it looks like others have tried to switch their groups and some have succeeded while others have failed.

 

Perhaps we could put our heads together and see what has helped those who succeeded do so, and what caused those who failed to end up in that situation.

 

Perhaps they way the idea is presented to the group? Or perhaps the choices in the initial characters, initial story, or even the way those characters were made?

 

Or whatever else?

 

I can't be the only person wanting to run a Hero game with a group of players who are hesitant.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Well' date=' why don't you think about why you get this response? It's not like many others who are posting on these boards do. I know you were asked to stop commenting on Hero over on rpg.net. Do you see a pattern?[/quote']

 

Yes, I do. But I bet its not the same one you do? :-)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I personally think the player who's worried about his DnD collection will prefer Hero once he knows it - I just have to get him to get that far without antagonizing him first.

 

It looks like, when I read the parts of the thread before the ... well, it looks like others have tried to switch their groups and some have succeeded while others have failed.

 

Perhaps we could put our heads together and see what has helped those who succeeded do so, and what caused those who failed to end up in that situation.

 

Perhaps they way the idea is presented to the group? Or perhaps the choices in the initial characters, initial story, or even the way those characters were made?

 

I game with a fairly large group which plays D&D. Within that group are some players who are fairly casual gamers, and some who are more serious. Many of the more serious gamers want to play more often, so we have a smaller group which plays a second game. That group plays both D & D and various Hero campaigns (with a player who plays D&D but not Hero - primarily due to genre issues, not system issues), and occasionally another system.

 

The bottom line is that some players do not want to learn a second system. For myself, I'm not prepared to invest a lot of time learning a vast array of new systems, but I'll play them as long as I don't have to invest a lot of up front time learning the system (ie play a "learn as you go" campaign). I'm already quite familiar with D&D and Hero (and have played a few older systems, so I'm familiar with them).

 

I draw two conclusions which may help you from the above.

 

First, it is possibke not everyone in your group will want to lkearn a new system. You may hagve to choose between including those players in a D&D campaign, or excluding them from a Hero campaign. That's their choice.

 

Second, nothing requires you or your group to exclusively play one system. Our group has a number of GM's, who simply decide "I'm going to run Champions/Fantasy Hero/D&D/Whatever - who wants to play"? The group forms based on who has the time, and the inclination to play that system, in that genre, with that GM. There's generaly one large D&D game and a few smaller, more sproadic games running at any given time.

[schir1964]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Some general information for all posters who may not know.

 

This board has an feature that allows you to turn on an "Ignore" function on poster(s) that you may find annoying. This feature, once activated will cause all posts by any and all individuals on that list to be invisible to you.

 

So, if someone has a pattern of behavior that continues to annoy people, soon that person won't have anyone responding to thier posts since they won't be seen anyway.

 

Just Some Information

 

- Christopher Mullins

[magnon]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I'm a veteran Hero player from '86 myself and loved the release of 5ed.

I can tell you that convincing d20'ers to play it is daunting. I play DnD 3.5 and enjoy it but will tell you that my experience is most d20'ers are too used to the simplicity of that system. As far as those who cite long combats are concerned, they're thinking of Champions which reflects the high energy, throwing tanks like confetti world of the comic book. So yeah, when you can shrug off the damage of planetfall your combats are going to take a while. But in fantasy/modern campaigns it's brutal and tends to be resolved quicker than in DnD once the players are used to using a different system. Don't promise them they'll love the system the first time they play it. Get them to give it at least 5 sessions to get used to the differences. I can almost guarantee none of them played DnD 3.x flawlessly in less time than that!

I've currently got a couple from my group interested in doing a modern campaign using the Hero system and am working up the world. Super powers will be introduced later

As one of 'em said when looking at the basic rules. 'Combat's bloody!'

 

Best luck to all those wanting to get a Hero game going, myself included

 

Oh, and it's nice to see other folks actually still love Hero!

[cutsleeve]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Those players who have played the game and dislike it on principle.

 

Dont run it with them.

 

For those players who have heard about it and are less inclined by it because of what theyve heard as a slow system, compicated, ect. and those who say if it isnt "system of choice" then why bother.

 

The easiest solution would be make it easier for them. Lets say your running fantasy hero. Make a decent and easy magic system make up all the spells in it make up all the talents, abilities, monsters, weapons, disadvantages, ect. and let them choose from your lists, give them package deals, and make charcter building more predefined and modular. Streamline the combat rules and other rules. Give them a basic overveiw of how things work and let things go from there.

 

This takes alot of time but it is one way to introduce people to the game, show how it functions, and then gives you a set of steps to introducing more complex things such as how to use their xp, how to make custom abilities, how to know what your doing without the gm telling you, and many other things which they will eventually want to do.

 

when you introduce a new game its a bad idea to give the players all the options even though you want to give them enough they can enjoy themselves then let them ask for more when they want it.

 

If this doesnt work then you always have the option of using hero system to create new things for another system. or Manipulating certian hero rules into another system ive always wanted to try a d20/hero hybrid where characters are more modular and less template driven. same for monsters

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

My players kept asking which of BESM d20 or Fantasy Hero I would run.

 

I put it into an ultimatum - somebody run a super hero game for me to play in, and I will run both (but stop my supers game), otherwise I run Fantasy Hero and if you want fantasy run by me, that's what you get.

 

When the only person in the group willing to GM besides me came back that he couldn't manage to run a second game right now (he's running a DnD game that I play in), the decision was made.

 

Though I've been asked if I'm sure on it a few times, I've decided to go with Fantasy Hero (as my continuing presence on these boards suggests ) and have been prepping the docs and info I need to do so.

 

I still have to 'write' my fantasy world, and that is pending me writing another 21,000 words of fiction - as in finishing Pedra's tale, the chapter that comes after the prelude on my fiction site (provided I don't get foolish and let the publisher who contacted me recently keep me from writing online...).

 

So anyway, it will be Fantasy Hero and I have 5 players. If I lose one or two in the switch, I can always recruit - but they're a really good bunch and recruitment always risks wierdos. For some reason, a lot of gamers out here in San Francisco use drugs (despite popular myths in the rest of the country, the local population is in general not a bunch of wackos) or vote republican (), and I'm always having to do research on people to screen them out...

 

as far as simplicity - I'm more than likely going the "wrong way" on that one. The inability to get d20 to work smoothly with my setting's ideas on magic was the first reason that both BESM and Hero began to appeal to me. I've got a system which requires a lot of on the fly work - so it will likely be left to the more experienced players at first.

 

I agree on keeping the options simple though. Hit locations and a few of the combat manuevers in Fantasy Hero (everything from pages 154 to 157, and twisting blades on 158) is about the limit of optional rules that I intend to use at the start - maybe. I may cut some of them out, or rather simply not have any NPCs use them until the players know how to perform 'run of the mill' attack and defense.