Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Heh' date=' the REAL question is, if you're only a player, how do you convince the GM that he should switch from DnD to HERO?[/quote']

 

Run a side game/campaign for at least a few sessions that he can play in. Then let him see whether or hot HERO is his cup o' tea. If he warms up to it, let him know you would be willing to play!!

[BlackSword]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

arcady, I think the strongest point you will have is due to the multi-classing the players are doing. It is obvious they are a bit constrained by the current classes and are trying to find a way to break out of it, so sell Hero's (or BESM) ability to build a more rounded character. We are currently playing Spycraft d20, and I ran into this problem when I was working on my character. There is no way to increase his ability to hit in combat except raiseing his stats or waiting til the character levels. I kept looking for ways to buy CSLs, no luck.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

because skill points only come at pre-determined points in the game (when you level), and because the characters weren't leveling, it took months (real time and game time) before anyone was able to speak to the locals.

 

It was a very frustrating experience, and as soon as the adventure ended, we switched over to HERO.

 

If your group has a frustrating experience like that, it might be easy to bring it up as an incentive to try a new system -- "Look where DnD falls down; maybe a different system would be smoother here?"

I'm feeling this actually in the DnD game I play in. After months of play we're only level 2, and it feels like we're going nowhere because DnD is not set up to handle the style of play we've all chosen to adopt. Unfortunately that group is even more 'hardcore' on 'if not DnD, what?' than my own. I just sent the GM of that game an email linking to this thread... so I'll probably get stuck explaining this post...

 

I know he'd be happier running a point based game... but he doesn't know it. Yet.

[Old Man]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

The other thing about HERO is the lack of level jumps. As your characters slowly gain experience, they slowly get better with their skills. As with any game, the speed of advancement is left up to the GM but there is no "lag between levels".

 

The other thing is that players can choose which direction they want their characters to advance in. Level systems force you to advance in a specific manner. DnD has added a skill point system but every character gains hit points, better saves, etc when they gain levels. There is no way a player can choose to sacrifice one of these things in order to be more stealthy, or faster, or have a skill outside his "class".

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

The gamestopper isnt what one system does better than the other, or the strength of a Point based system for free form design, linear progression vice stair-step progression, magic system design, or power scaling.

 

The gamestopper is several in the OP's group are either anti-HERO or predisposed to discount it.

 

Trying to drag, cajole, or shoehorn those players into a HERO System game will be a very dicey proposition, rife with pitfalls.

 

I've done it several times, and heard from many others that have tried to do it as well.

 

Common sequence of events:

 

John Q Random -- "Hi Killer Shrike! Thanks for the website. I've been trying to get my DnD group to change over to Fantasy HERO for months and your site will be a big help! Some of them dont want to but I got them to agree to try it and will run a game for them soon!"

 

Send them an eMail a few months later

 

Me -- "How'd the switch over to FH go?"

 

John Q Random -- "Didn't really fly. Some of the group liked it, but a couple hated it and ruined the game so we went back to D&D."

 

 

From my own experience you can entice the group with the HERO System, but until they collectively want to try it it's not worth trying to force it on them. It just doesnt work. Further you have to be prepared to lose some of the players that are just not interested.

 

If I were in your place I would start the game up as a seperate concern, offer the existing group invitations, and run it with just those who are interested in it. If the game goes well, recruit one or two new players who want to play FH. Typically, if the campaign has legs and is working at least one of the players from the old group who didnt make the transition will develop an interest and want to play -- for them some game is better than no game. The ones that dont wouldnt have enjoyed the game any way.

 

 

Rather than trying to sell it, write up versions of the existing PCs in HERO's, paying particular attentio to the PC's of the players that are interested and semi-interested. You probably know what at least some of the players wish their characters could do, so do a more true-to-concept version of them rather than a direct map conversion.

 

Show them what they could do, and get their commitments to play.

 

Maybe run a quick battle arena for two of the more evenly matched characters, pitting them against one another. Try to use the character of one of the players that is on the cusp, and weight things in their favor if possible to do without notice. Few things win someone over faster than early successes.

 

If you get a good vibe, announce that the next session will be run using the HERO System. Otherwise leave off for a while and try again later, or scrap the group and assemble a new HEROs-friendly group.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Ultimately, you are the GM. You decide what you run. If they don't like it enough not to play then they are putting their game choices ahead of their friendship with you. The GM bears the greatest burden concerning what system is chosen to play and, therefore, the players should respect that choice - assuming that everyone is there to play "a" game with their friends. If they are there to play a given game with people they get along with or tolerate - you have to decide whether it's worth your while to GM a game in a system you do not prefer to run to keep them. I know what my answer would be. I put too much work into the games I run to be hamstrung into running a system that doesn't work best for me.

 

As a player, you really ought to be open to most any system, although I am not suggesting you should suffer through a genre or a take on a genre you don't like. But an unfamiliar system to you as a player shouldn't have that much impact on whether or not you enjoy the game, unless you are a control freak, and in that case you need to lighten up.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Ultimately' date=' you are the GM. You decide what you run. If they don't like it enough not to play then they are putting their game choices ahead of their friendship with you. The GM bears the greatest burden concerning what system is chosen to play and, therefore, the players should respect that choice - assuming that everyone is there to play "a" game with their friends. If they are there to play a given game with people they get along with or tolerate - you have to decide whether it's worth your while to GM a game in a system you do not prefer to run to keep them. I know what my answer would be. I put too much work into the games I run to be hamstrung into running a system that doesn't work [b']best[/b] for me.

 

As a player, you really ought to be open to most any system, although I am not suggesting you should suffer through a genre or a take on a genre you don't like. But an unfamiliar system to you as a player shouldn't have that much impact on whether or not you enjoy the game, unless you are a control freak, and in that case you need to lighten up.

Well said.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

If they don't like it enough not to play then they are putting their game choices ahead of their friendship with you.[/Quote]

 

A GM who makes puts that ultimatum to her players won't have players for very long, much less friends.

 

It should be possible for a group of friends to choose a game they'll all enjoy, or will at least enjoy trying out for a one-shot. It would be good for all concerned if people were willing to take a break from the routine once in a while and try something new, but trying to drag players into a game they aren't at least somewhat interested in trying is unlikely to end well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

A GM who makes puts that ultimatum to her players won't have players for very long, much less friends.

 

It should be possible for a group of friends to choose a game they'll all enjoy, or will at least enjoy trying out for a one-shot. It would be good for all concerned if people were willing to take a break from the routine once in a while and try something new, but trying to drag players into a game they aren't at least somewhat interested in trying is unlikely to end well.

Ive gone that route on many occasions and done fine with it.

 

Of course, it should be noted that I dont game for social reasons; I game to game. Most of the people I game with are not "friends", and most of my friends are not gamers.

 

So different strokes for different folks.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

In a similar vein to this thread, I ran some M&M for my group last week and, after the game was over, they requested that we stay with Hero ... I was shocked ... happily shocked, but shocked just the same. A little history ... my players are d20 players We've been playing 3e since it came out and, after wanting to return to my home system (Hero), I wanted to play some stuff in that. So I converted the M&M characters over to Hero and they sighfully played. Now, after 2 months of Hero, this is the reaction I get ... Pretty cool, huh?

What I'd recommend is play a few mini-games with Hero to give them a taste ... then ask what they think of it. You might be surprised by the answers

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Ive gone that route on many occasions and done fine with it.

 

Your earlier comments match more closely with my experience:

 

From my own experience you can entice the group with the HERO System' date=' but until they collectively [i']want[/i] to try it it's not worth trying to force it on them. It just doesnt work. ...

 

If I were in your place I would start the game up as a seperate concern, offer the existing group invitations, and run it with just those who are interested in it. If the game goes well, recruit one or two new players who want to play FH.

 

That would be what I would probably try.

[Agent X]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

A GM who makes puts that ultimatum to her players won't have players for very long, much less friends.

 

It should be possible for a group of friends to choose a game they'll all enjoy, or will at least enjoy trying out for a one-shot. It would be good for all concerned if people were willing to take a break from the routine once in a while and try something new, but trying to drag players into a game they aren't at least somewhat interested in trying is unlikely to end well.

You are misreading me. I'm talking about systems, not games. If a friend won't play your sci-fi game specifically because you, as GM, choose to use Gurps instead of Traveller, they are the ones being petty.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

You are misreading me. I'm talking about systems' date=' not games. If a friend won't play your sci-fi game specifically because you, as GM, choose to use Gurps instead of Traveller, they are the ones being petty.[/quote']

 

Am I unrealistic to think that it should be possible for a game group to mutually agree on what they'll play? I do not think that I am. Perhaps I have been lucky.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

What the good Agent is saying (if im on the same page as he is, and I think I am), is that ultimately the players arent the ones slaving over game material in whatever time they can steal from their personal and professional lives, and if a player throws a snit over playing because the GM isn't using the players system of choice, then it's the player that needs to realign their viewpoint or split, not the GM that needs to force themselves to run in a system they dont like just to appease the player.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I have been GMing a while and i gotta say, i cannot agree with this, especially with the tenor.

 

The Gm and the players are equally vital to the process. Each has the right to express and to expect to be taken seriosuly about their preferences, both in game style and in system.

 

Sure, the Gm will do whatever degree of work he feels necessary for his game, but the players will spend work and time on their characters, on the plots and permutations as well.

 

i game with friends as well as acquaintances i meet thru gaming. When i decide to run a game and look for an audience, i also look at what system would be good FOR THEM, based on their backgrounds and preferences. often that means streamlining down a complex system or dropping elements i would like to add to keep it at a degree of complexity and work that they will bear more readily than I, a gamer of decades, would normally need.

 

Honestly, i put the players first.

Their preferences are not branded petty when the clash with mine.

 

FWIW

 

 

 

What the good Agent is saying (if im on the same page as he is' date=' and I think I am), is that ultimately the players arent the ones slaving over game material in whatever time they can steal from their personal and professional lives, and if a player throws a snit over playing because the GM isn't using the players system of choice, then it's the player that needs to realign their viewpoint or split, not the GM that needs to force themselves to run in a system they dont like just to appease the player.[/quote']

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I have been GMing a while and i gotta say, i cannot agree with this, especially with the tenor.

 

The Gm and the players are equally vital to the process. Each has the right to express and to expect to be taken seriosuly about their preferences, both in game style and in system.

 

Sure, the Gm will do whatever degree of work he feels necessary for his game, but the players will spend work and time on their characters, on the plots and permutations as well.

 

i game with friends as well as acquaintances i meet thru gaming. When i decide to run a game and look for an audience, i also look at what system would be good FOR THEM, based on their backgrounds and preferences. often that means streamlining down a complex system or dropping elements i would like to add to keep it at a degree of complexity and work that they will bear more readily than I, a gamer of decades, would normally need.

 

Honestly, i put the players first.

Their preferences are not branded petty when the clash with mine.

 

FWIW

 

{shrugs} Good for you. I on the other hand run the game I want to run, and players can come and go as it suits them. I work in elements for the players to enjoy, but Im not going to run a game in a system I dont like. GMing is work enough as it is. Im not going to do something I hate in pursuit of something that is supposed to be a relaxing hobby for me.

 

Its not like Im getting paid by the players for providing a service to compensate me.

 

The players dont put in a nth of degree of the amount of work I put in. All they have to do is manage to find their way to the table once a week with a pencil, some dice, a character sheet, and a readiness to play their characters well. Amazingly, some cant do that from week to week with any regularity.

 

I've been playing this hobby for too long to get much enjoyment out of certain been-there-done-that elements and that includes running certain systems which bore and/or frustrate the hell out of me. It's not worth the stress.

 

So if I get it into my head to run a campaign in genre Y with system X, then I tell the group that Im considering it and get feedback, but once I make the decision to do it they can either get on board with it or hit the road.

 

And by the way, before you say it, yes I am somewhat elitist. I dont see that as being a bad thing. I put a lot of emphasis on Quality Control, and part of that emphasis is reflected in the System I choose to run a game in.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I reckon that I'm with the folks that think that the GM should decide the system he's willing to run.

 

I think that the GM should run that system in the style that suits the players though. For example, if I'm going to run superheroes then Champions is the system that I want to run. My particular favourite genre of supers is 4 colour Golden Age but none of my players like Golden Age and few of them are four colour fans.

 

Thus we play a more street level champions than I'd like but we don't play another system because using Champions makes my life as GM easier.

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

I reckon that I'm with the folks that think that the GM should decide the system he's willing to run.

 

I think that the GM should run that system in the style that suits the players though. For example, if I'm going to run superheroes then Champions is the system that I want to run. My particular favourite genre of supers is 4 colour Golden Age but none of my players like Golden Age and few of them are four colour fans.

 

Thus we play a more street level champions than I'd like but we don't play another system because using Champions makes my life as GM easier.

 

 

Doc

Exactly.

[arcady]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Catching up cause I just realized the thread got to page 3 without me seeing it for some reason...

 

I myself found out about Hero by getting dragged into it back in 1984.

 

I showed up, like everybody else, for the DnD game, and the GM announced he was going to run Champions (2E - 3E had come out days earlier and only one of them owned it, not the GM).

 

I think it had to do with a critical player being absent, but I'm not sure.

 

Needless to say after floundering around trying to figure out both what a super hero was and how I could make a character without knowing my class or alignment... I was hooked. That week I made my first trip to a comic book shop, and I bought Champions 3E. Two weeks later I ran my first game - a complete disaster, but it didn't stop me...

 

BTW: I knew comics, but all I'd read before that was Conan.

 

You can convert people. Maybe not everybody, but you can convert people. It does have to be done right though.

 

I'd never manage to get my players off of MnM over to Champions, and I have no desire to. But I do plan to put them on either BESM d20 or Fantasy Hero for the fantasy game I run.

 

As they play MnM, they know classess, alignmentless, and level-less... just not for fantasy save for some of them.

 

Making it go smoothly, and getting them to desire the switch... that's the challenge. They know about this thread btw... I sent them the URL early Monday right after my big post on page 2.

 

To tetsuji's comments about adopting a magic system into d20 - I've tried and failed before. BESM d20 is the best option for this I've seen however, and I suspect I can do it there.

 

To the comment that characters in systems without psych disads are often richer - I agree. I see a lot of people choose psych lims for the points rather than the nature of a character. Disads like 'Curious' or 'Heroic' or other items that in many games are nothing more than 'PC'.

 

The disads of Hero are both a strong and weak point of the system - 'which' being a matter of how you use them, and there is some burden on the GM for this - if no more than to correct for former GMs doing it differently...

 

 

I value the desires and goals of players as well, but I gotta say, if your players are putting in time and effort outside of the game session then I envy you.

 

I have to bribe mine with bonus XP to get things like journals, and I rarely have any idea where they want the game to go. I work on a continual 'one step from burnout, find inspiration to fall back a step before next week' system...

 

I'm continually holding the clock at 11:59, working to keep midnight away - though in game there's good roleplay, I do lead more than follow.

 

On the other hand, I'm the one with the worst schedule in the group - and I run 2 of the 3 games and host the majority of the time. Most of the cancelations are my fault, and often come at sudden notice... I've considered that maybe that makes me unfit to be the GM, but there's no real replacement so instead I struggle to stablize my schedule...

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Its not like Im getting paid by the players for providing a service to compensate me.

 

Thats the difference then. I am getting paid by the players. They pay me about three hours a session of enjoyment and entertainment derived from our shared fun. i pay them back in kind.

 

I would have a lot less fun running the game without them.

 

But i gotta say that, from my vantage point, at the point that I started seeing GMing as work and effort to the degree that i would use that as basis to set myself above the players in my own mind, as opposed to that effort and time investment being something i enjoy for its own sake, i would probably look to booking those 1-3 evenings a week doing other things.

 

YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

But i gotta say that, from my vantage point, at the point that I started seeing GMing as work and effort to the degree that i would use that as basis to set myself above the players in my own mind, as opposed to that effort and time investment being something i enjoy for its own sake, i would probably look to booking those 1-3 evenings a week doing other things.

 

When it stops being fun, it starts being work. If it's work, I want to get paid for it. At present, I'm not aware of any paid GM gigs, and I suspect there would be a lot of competitors if there were any. So if it's not fun, I'd be finding something else to do as well.

 

As Tesuji points out, the pay may suck, but the fringe benefits are excellent.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Thats the difference then. I am getting paid by the players. They pay me about three hours a session of enjoyment and entertainment derived from our shared fun. i pay them back in kind.

 

I guess I see my work as GM as work. I get a certain amount of satisfaction out of the work I do when the rest of the group aren't there and during the session I get as much fun as anyone else.

 

For me the kick-back is that other people GM to allow me to play. It's kind of like a social contract - I do my work so that _we_ can enjoy ourselves and then someone else does their work so that _we_ can enjoy ourselves.

 

If I was doing all of the work then I'd feel a bit more justified in doing what I wanted to do with the proviso that if someone else really wanted to play _any_ other system then I'd be delighted to be a player in their game.

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Thats the difference then. I am getting paid by the players. They pay me about three hours a session of enjoyment and entertainment derived from our shared fun. i pay them back in kind.

 

I would have a lot less fun running the game without them.

 

But i gotta say that, from my vantage point, at the point that I started seeing GMing as work and effort to the degree that i would use that as basis to set myself above the players in my own mind, as opposed to that effort and time investment being something i enjoy for its own sake, i would probably look to booking those 1-3 evenings a week doing other things.

 

YMMV

I run sessions that range from 6 hours up, once a week, and preperation for a game can often include creating entire sections of the world wholesale. I dont use much "canned" material -- the game setting of whatever Im running is more vibrant and unique than that. Often it entails getting by on a few hours of sleep a night to make time to develop the game.

 

Its something I enjoy doing for the most part -- thats the reason I GM afterall, for the creative outlet.

 

However, doing it in a system that aggravates me quickly becomes unattractive, and something that Im not interested in doing.

 

You might see that as me putting myself above the players, but whatever. Its just me looking out for my own interests. Im not going to participate in a hobby that aggravates me after all -- what would be the point of that?

 

And lets be honest, the GM is more important to the game than the players to some extent. If any one player quits the game goes on, but if the GM quits it all comes to a halt. So whose sustainability is more critical then? The GM's, obviously.

[tesuji]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

 

I run sessions that range from 6 hours up, once a week, and preperation for a game can often include creating entire sections of the world wholesale. I dont use much "canned" material -- the game setting of whatever Im running is more vibrant and unique than that. Often it entails getting by on a few hours of sleep a night to make time to develop the game.

My sessions run evenings so three hours each twice a week. About the same play time i reckon.

 

prep time varies. world creation is done up front before campaign starts but the main work is episode by episode, season by season. Easily i could say a couple hours prep average for each session, spread over the week.

 

Whether thw rodl is canned (my current stargate sg-1) or unique (my current MNM surprise apocalype game) is pretty much irrelevent in terms of amount of work. Each episode (three session arc) still needs to be a story with beginning, middle, end and all that entials and tied in to characters and its role as part of the season. Each NPC has to be generated. Each encounter drawn out.

 

So, for me at least, the workload is the same session by session whether the universe is someone else's or mine.

However, doing it in a system that aggravates me quickly becomes unattractive, and something that Im not interested in doing.

I can understand that. I hope you are not getting the impression that I said or implied a Gm SHOULD run using a system he dislikes.

You might see that as me putting myself above the players, but whatever.

Actually, i would say that you see it that way, as you note just a few sentences down how more important the GM is than the player.

Its just me looking out for my own interests. Im not going to participate in a hobby that aggravates me after all -- what would be the point of that?

None whatsoever, and again, i never said a Gm should do that. No matter how much it might be fun to play one on a BBS, we are not martyrs.

And lets be honest, the GM is more important to the game than the players to some extent. If any one player quits the game goes on, but if the GM quits it all comes to a halt. So whose sustainability is more critical then? The GM's, obviously.

 

The key is not more important or more valuable than the car simply because the car wont run without the key. both need the other equally.

 

But, hey, this is not something we will agree on, so, i just gotta say...

 

enjoy your games.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Selling people on Hero system when they're already inclined against it...?

 

Keys come in pairs, GM's typically dont.

 

However, in the analogy department, the GM is more like car and the players are more like the passengers.