Seduction an Everyman Skill

[Wanderer]

I'm very puzzled by Seduction not showing up in the Everyman Skill lists, along with Acting, Conversation and Persuasion. After all, Seduction is a basic socialization ability as fundamental as any of the other social skills.

[nexus]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I'm very puzzled by Seduction not showing up in the Everyman Skill lists' date=' along with Acting, Conversation and Persuasion. After all, Seduction is a basic socialization ability as fundamental as any of the other social skills.[/quote']

 

Seduction seems more something you have to know how to do. Ever seen someone who can't flirt, try? But most folks can wheedle, badger and beg at least somewhat.

 

Though, to be really logical you could make a case for it. I say, go for it.

[Old Man]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction is NOT an everyman skill.

[palehorse]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction is NOT an everyman skill.

 

I was a bartender long enough to know that this is absolutely true; you want to work in a job where you can see guy after guy get shot down in flames, that's the one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Seduction (the Skill), isn't picking up chicks or otherwise making yourself attractive to the opposite gender. It's the ability to make a friend, gain someone's trust, and make them like you.

 

The reason it's not an Everyman Skill (I assume) is the emphasis on the term "make". People will become friends, or trust one another, based on a number of factors, but a character with Seduction can ignore some of them and make themselves likable dispite them.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Everyone has the ability to get into the pants of another person...

 

It's just a matter of how good are you at it?

 

By the time we're done with our lives, only 4% of Americans have never married...

 

The numbers who have never had a sexual relationship are probably much lower...

 

That said, the skill is about making friends and winning favors, not sex, despite the name.

 

If it was just sex - few women would have it, though those who did would be more common among the younger generation (as patterns of initiating sexual contact are shifting).

 

But for forming friendships, relationships, contacts, and favors...

 

Anyone who has lived around other people can do this to some degree.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

You all raise valid points, but then the question is why other Social Skills are deemed Everyman. There are as many persons in the general populace who are as catastrofically unable to tell a convincing lie, be charming or persuasive or strike an interesting conversation as they or others are in scoring a successful seduction.

 

Either you deem that for the average person, basic socialization process ia enough to give very basic proficiency in all social skills, including seduction (and most people are able to set up a reasonably stable relationship or string of short-term ones somehow), or you recognize the presence of people without basic social skills.

 

Either all Social Skills are Everyman, or none is. There is no valid reason why Persuasion is, and Seduction doesn't.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

But for forming friendships, relationships, contacts, and favors...

 

Anyone who has lived around other people can do this to some degree.

Of course, but it's limited by who they are and who they talk to. The Seduction Skill allows you to do this without performing favors in return, and to overcome any negative aspects (as viewed by the target) of yourself in those situations. While I can't say that most people can or can't do this, I can certainly say that there are quite a few who can't.

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually the skill does require you to offer companionship and or favors in return.

[Old Man]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

There are as many persons in the general populace who are as catastrofically unable to tell a convincing lie' date=' be charming or persuasive or strike an interesting conversation as they or others are in scoring a successful seduction. [/quote']

 

I disagree. I'd say that people are far more capable of telling lies than being seductive.

[BlackSword]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

I'm very puzzled by Seduction not showing up in the Everyman Skill lists' date=' along with Acting, Conversation and Persuasion. After all, Seduction is a basic socialization ability as fundamental as any of the other social skills.[/quote']

You and I should hit the bar scene sometime. You will quickly understand why those skills are not everyman skills.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Actually the skill does require you to offer companionship and or favors in return.

Yes, as opposed to offering nothing, which is what Persuasion does. Only Persuasion only gets one thing accomplished, Seduction garners trust.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

You and I should hit the bar scene sometime. You will quickly understand why those skills are not everyman skills.

 

Well, of that I'm extremely well aware from both personal and professional experience. My point is, drawing on the same experience, in most cases, people who have severe deficiences in social skills have them across the board. It is rather rare to be really, really lousy at seduction, sexual magnetism, and winning friends with personal charm, and then being average good at face-to-face persuasion, telling convincing lies, being a decent conversationalist or actor.

 

Hence my point is: either all of Seduction, Acting, Persuasion and Conversation are Everyman skills, or none is. Either approach has its reasons. Even if, I'm in the favor of the former. Really severe deficiences in basic social skills are fairly rare, even if well-known to mental health professionals. Estimate, very roughly, 3-5% of population (schizofrenics, severe social anxiety, some personality disorders) double it if you include borderline or subthreshold cases.

[Old Man]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

The thing is if skills like Seduction are everyman skills that means EVERYbody has them, which I don't think they do.

[Magmarock]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Since yesterday, I've been thinking about what the Seduction skill means in the Hero System or, more precisely, how it’s used In Game.

 

In the past, I always thought the Seduction skill was all about 'sexual persuasion'. I thought that maybe, just for game purposes, Seduction was originally meant to be sexual in nature... meaning that In Game the Seduction skill is used only for romantic or sexual situations.

 

Recent discussion on it had convinced me that maybe the skills Seduction and Persuasion were overlapping a bit... redundant even.

 

Intrigued, I looked up the exact meanings and then realized these are very different skills and also that Seduction can be much more than what I thought it was for:

 

~~~

Seduce

 

1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure.

 

2. To induce to engage in sex.

 

3. 1. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position.

2. To win over; attract.

 

~~~

Persuade

 

1. To influence or gain over by argument, advice, entreaty, expostulation, etc.; to draw or incline to a determination by presenting sufficient motives.

 

~~~

 

In a way, these two skills are opposite sides of the same coin, with Persuasion being a positive motivator, while Seduction having negative connotations. This is not saying that the Seduction skill is always negative, but that villains would be more apt to use Seduction to gain influence, while heroes would lean toward the Persuasion skill.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Mags

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Now I didn't read that at all.

 

I read Seduction as gathering trust by proving your worth trusting. It's like the DnD Diplomacy skill.

 

"...gain other's trust (and perhaps even friendship) by offering companionship or favors.

A successful Seduction roll usually makes it easier to learn information of gain favors..." (page 48 Hero rulebook)

 

--- That's how all human beings build friendships.

 

Persuasion on the other hand, is not about buidling relationships, it's about convincing people of something. It is like the DnD Bluff skill.

 

..."convince, persuade, or influence individuals, or tell lies.

...

a successful Persuasion roll should make a PC much more inclined to believe the speaker or do as he requests." (page 46 Hero rulebook)

 

 

Funny thing is, reading that... If wanted to get someone in bed I would use persuasion. I wanted to make them into a romantic relationship, I would use seduction.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

The thing is if skills like Seduction are everyman skills that means EVERYbody has them' date=' which I don't think they do.[/quote']

 

That's not what Everyman in Hero terms means. There it means "skills the overwheming majority of people in the setting have at least a basic familiarity with", and hence any character may be likely assumed to have, except in special cases, typically to be marked as such by a Disadvantage.

 

Just like some people don't have Seduction, I can mention special cases where anyone likely does not have any of the official Everyman skills (e.g. an early-age cripple for Climbing, an unliterate in modern age for Language).

 

Familiarity with Seduction does not mean being budding Don Juans. It means someone, at least a few times in his/her life, is able to arouse sentimental interest or winning a friendship through personal charm. Really, how many persons do you personally know that are so deeply socially incompetent ?

[Magmarock]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Interesting analysis, Arcady.

 

 

I was watching Star trek IV this morning, and the part where Scottie and McCoy were bartering for the materials to build the tank by trading for the specs of 1" thick, see-thru aluminum. McCoy leaned in to the guy and said, "You'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams..." That smacked of Seduction rather than Persuasion; Mainly because they were asking this man to give it to them in trade for an idea which would take him years to bring to fruition, instead of getting a conventional payment.

 

 

Mags

[nexus]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

That's not what Everyman in Hero terms means. There it means "skills the overwheming majority of people in the setting have at least a basic familiarity with", and hence any character may be likely assumed to have, except in special cases, typically to be marked as such by a Disadvantage.

 

Just like some people don't have Seduction, I can mention special cases where anyone likely does not have any of the official Everyman skills (e.g. an early-age cripple for Climbing, an unliterate in modern age for Language).

 

Familiarity with Seduction does not mean being budding Don Juans. It means someone, at least a few times in his/her life, is able to arouse sentimental interest or winning a friendship through personal charm. Really, how many persons do you personally know that are so deeply socially incompetent ?

 

Among gamers and geeks? Numbers untold...

[arcady]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

The problem is that I think the names of the two skills are off.

 

The scene you described is persuasion if he's trying to convince a person of something.

 

Seduction should be named something that evokes building relationships, alliances, and contacts.

 

Diplomacy, what it gets called in DnD, almost works - though I've seen plenty of d20 GMs try to use it for negotiation rather than using bluff because in d20's case, bluff is the missnamed skill (it does more than dishonest interaction). Hero's Seduction, by it's description, should be called Diplomacy, and DnD's bluff, by it's description, should be called Persuasion.

 

Yes the scene you describe might seem like 'seducing a person into something that appeals to them' - but it isn't Seduction because Seduction is not seduction.

 

Now it may be in that scene that they first gain his trust, and then use that to strengthen their ability to persuade...

 

Complimentary skill rolls - with Seduction aiding Persuasion.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Among gamers and geeks? Numbers untold...

 

Sample selection bias. You won't find Singing a very frequent skill among mutes.

[nexus]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Sample selection bias. You won't find Singing a very frequent skill among mutes.

 

Straw Man. Mutes are incapable of singing. Gamers and geeks are not innately incapable of forming relationships.

 

I think it boils down the fact, you don't have to make a skill roll to form friendships and relationships. Seduction is the ability to do it quickly and easily and/or under adversarial conditions. Not everyone can do that.

[Wanderer]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

Straw Man. Mutes are incapable of singing. Gamers and geeks are not innately incapable of forming relationships.

 

I acknowledge the fallacy. Then let's say Oratory at a self-help group for the social anxious, or PS: Lap-dancing among nuns.

 

I think it boils down the fact, you don't have to make a skill roll to form friendships and relationships. Seduction is the ability to do it quickly and easily and/or under adversarial conditions. Not everyone can do that.

 

I wouldn't really say 8- much qualifies as "quickly and easily and/or under adversarial conditions".

[nexus]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

 

I wouldn't really say 8- much qualifies as "quickly and easily and/or under adversarial conditions".

 

I was talking about what the skill itself represents, Famaliarity is what it is, a small chance to do so under such conditions when unskilled people would fail.

 

Let me try this from a different angle. Seduction is the ability to force a relationship in the since of manipulating somethoing into it. It is "unatural" in a sense and faster than a normal "natural" relationship because you know how to push the right buttons even in a stranger. In my experience, most people do not have that ability. Unless you require a Seduction role to naturally make a friend (and don't allow contacts, followers, DNPC, etc unless you have Seduction. ) then I do not think its required to be a Everyman skill.

 

But, YMMV and all that. It certainly doesn't break the game to make it one.

[Magmarock]

Re: Seduction an Everyman Skill

 

In case you missed these definitions, Arcady, that I posted from Dictionary.com. I did not make these up. I am reposting them just for you.

 

~~~

Seduce

 

1. To lead away from duty, accepted principles, or proper conduct. See Synonyms at lure.

 

2. To induce to engage in sex.

 

3. 1. To entice or beguile into a desired state or position.

2. To win over; attract.

 

~~~

Persuade

 

1. To influence or gain over by argument, advice, entreaty, expostulation, etc.; to draw or incline to a determination by presenting sufficient motives.

 

~~~

 

 

 

Notice the first description of Seduction, #1. I think I hit the nail on it's head. You may think that Seduction means something else, but you'll need to convince an awful lot of other people before the definition gets changed in the dictionary.

 

 

Mags