Ultimate vs The Authority

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Wanderer, the freaking Death's Head SS gave psych discharges to people for getting too hardened or too casual about killing.

 

... historically speaking, the level of behavior you're suggesting has been considered psychologically unsuitable for Nazi death camp guards, let alone US servicement.

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Wanderer' date=' the freaking [b']Death's Head SS[/b] gave psych discharges to people for getting too hardened or too casual about killing.

 

... historically speaking, the level of behavior you're suggesting has been considered psychologically unsuitable for Nazi death camp guards, let alone US servicement.

 

 

Chuckg, Death's Head SS were the ones that had shooting, starving, forcing to work to deth, and gassing hundreds and thousands of innocent civilians, including pregnant women and preteen children as a job, by being the guards at death camps.

 

You are proposing a comparison between someone who would laugh and crack jokes at summarily executing a genocidal dictator, or his fictional equivalents, and those who would do the same during the massacre of innocent civilians, including children.

 

Are you seriously telling me there is no significant psychological (don't mention moral) difference ?

[Jhamin]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

You are proposing a comparison between someone who would laugh and crack jokes at summarily executing a genocidal dictator, or his fictional equivalents, and those who would do the same during the massacre of innocent civilians, including children.

 

Are you seriously telling us there is no significant psychological (don't mention moral) difference ?

 

 

Are you seriously trying to tell us that mercilessly butchering some people is really bad but that mercilessly butchering others (while telling jokes about it) is really good and in fact to be encouraged?

 

And are some people allowed to decide who lives and who dies while it is a capital offense if others do?

 

Do some human lives matter more than others?

 

 

If that is seriously what you think then we may not have a common moral compass to refer to while discussing this topic.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

> Chuckg, Death's Head SS were the ones that had shooting, starving, forcing

> to work to deth, and gassing hundreds and thousands of innocent civilians,

> including pregnant women and preteen children as a job, by being the guards

> at death camps.

 

Yup.

 

And even *THIS* crew had higher standards of psychological hygiene than the Authority did.

 

No, seriously.

 

Historically, the ideal attitude towards the actual act of killing, from the point of view of a military force, is 'disciplined but detached'.

 

You treat it like, oh, plumbers treat pipes full of encrusted shit -- something really gross that you have to stick your hands into anyway, because it's part of your job.

 

And then after it's done you go home, wash your hands, and not think about it. It's nothing to be enjoyed, nor is it anything to traumatize yourself for life over... it's a dirty but necessary thing that you do, and then once it's done you get back to the business of finding satisfaction in the /normal/ things of life.

 

Anyone who behaved like the Authority did either pre- or post-battle would have -- and this isn't speculation, as the standards and practices and regulations of the SS are matters of historical record -- been psychologically discharged from service.

 

If not taken out back and shot.

 

It is a literal statement of fact to say that in the real world, the Authority wouldn't even have been allowed to work at Auschwitz, much less anywhere in US service.

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Are you seriously trying to tell us that mercilessly butchering some people is really bad but that mercilessly butchering others (while telling jokes about it) is really good and in fact to be encouraged?

 

Yep. Blowing up busses of children going to school BAD. Blowing up bastard who leads organization responsible for blowing up busses GOOD. Don't care if the eliminator of the latter cracks jokes at it or not.

 

Do some human lives matter more than others?

 

Yep. Life of healthy child being more precious than of sickly 90-years-old. Life of genius scientist just about to crack cure for cancer more precious than of severely mentally retarded person. If on lifeboat in a storm, or sorting people for bunker before nuclear war or extinction-level fall of asteroid, who gets priorities ?

 

And are some people allowed to decide who lives and who dies while it is a capital offense if others do?

 

At the very, very root, every person allowed to decide if everyone else lives or dies. Everyone bound to take full responsibility for one's choices and their consequences, including others banding out to eliminate menace created by ones not discerning at using right.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Drug Use? Check.

Free Love? Check.

Lefist Philosophy? Check

Dress Weird? Check

Pacifist Outlook? No way.

 

4 out of 5

 

Not all hippies were pacifists.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

The psychotic-ness of the authority really started to annoy me that last issue of with jack Hawksmoore just struck me as wrong on so many levels.

 

I think its time for a new team realistically speaking there's no way they can redeem the characters without just well restarting the series at the death of Jenny sparks.

 

Oh and just a point for wanderer. Jack, Shen and Jenny where StormWatch's black ops division before Bendix went crazy so the only members without prior military/paramilitary training are the doctor and the engineer. There discipline can be explained easily because Jenny had several decades worth of experience as the creator and trainer of super teams.

[palehorse]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Wow... I just popped into this thread because I was vaguely interested in reading at least the first collection of the Authority (interested in reading it, not in basing a game on it; I'm very much a four-color/Golden & Silver Age-y kinda guy), but these last couple of pages...

 

::shakes head::

[Katherine]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Wow... I just popped into this thread because I was vaguely interested in reading at least the first collection of the Authority (interested in reading it, not in basing a game on it; I'm very much a four-color/Golden & Silver Age-y kinda guy), but these last couple of pages...

 

::shakes head::

 

I agree at this point. I've portrayed some characters that have been questionable (or downright villianous) but I think I have had the understanding that they were villianous and not some sort of warped heroes. This has just gotten to a ridiculous point where some people are seriously talking about how its all right to joke and crack wise about killing in the real world like we're living in some kind of action movie. Or treating feeling remorse and/or actually considering for a moment that your actions might not be the only and ultimately right course of action as a "moral failing".

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

And even *THIS* crew had higher standards of psychological hygiene than the Authority did.

 

Rather, they needed them, because the "job" they put soldiers to was to the very boundaries of human brutality, and simply they couldn't trust people who were desentitised past that level. But Authority does not crack jokes at massacrating helpless innocent civilain women and children. They do it at about killing people they are facing on the field of battle, and are fully cogniizant they are responsible for horrible deeds and clear and present danger for all. The levels of densitization involved are simply many orders of magnitude apart. Telling the act of killing is psychologically always the same notwithstanding the cricumstances is a farce.

 

I mean, millions of people look at action movie characters doing just what Authority characters do, without being particularly shocked and empathizing with the main character, b/c what's he's doing is not that far removed from average psyche. I don't think they'd do if shown same character torturing and killing helpess innocent children.

 

Historically, the ideal attitude towards the actual act of killing, from the point of view of a military force, is 'disciplined but detached'.

 

You just claimed Authority aren't military. They are volunteer vigilante/warrior/enforcer/crusader self-appointed guardians of the world, only responsive to their consciences, teammates, and their own moral committment to make more good than harm for mankind and the world as a whole. Given they have kept their level of "densitization" to the violence they employ roughly stabile (on the long-term, they keep killing world-threatening baddies: they have not devolved to killing petty thieves and jaywalkers), they are keeping to their responsibilities.

 

 

And then after it's done you go home, wash your hands, and not think about it. It's nothing to be enjoyed, nor is it anything to traumatize yourself for life over... it's a dirty but necessary thing that you do, and then once it's done you get back to the business of finding satisfaction in the /normal/ things of life.

 

And they crack jokes and make bravado threats just before, during, and just after battle. After things have settle, they don't go on for hours about how many skulls they have ripped. They talk about the lives they've saved, the difficulties they've faced, whether they did the right thing, if their mission is worth, what the future may bring.

 

 

It is a literal statement of fact to say that in the real world, the Authority wouldn't even have been allowed to work at Auschwitz, much less anywhere in US service.

 

That's fine. Because the only thing they would ever do with an Auschwitz situation would be not to rest, risk everything, and suffer everything till they have personally saved any inmate and neutralized anyone responsible for it. Before dutifully dedicating and fulfilling such a task for every similar hellhole every day of one's life, the fact one may find congenial teasing the Auschwitz commander and his ilk while they rip out his throat psychologically and morally pales to absolute, total insignificance. If anyone cannot acknowledge this simple truth, then it stands galaxies apart from where I view the world.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Id like to see the authority question their actions, their mission, their sanity, and their ethics, get upset when they have to do unpleasant things for some reason the only one who does is Angie and occasionally Shen [not often enough though considering she was a pacifistic Buddhist at one point] its probably some gender bias only the girls get upset about being evil.

 

I’d like to see them take killing as the last option not the first more often. I would have liked to see jack arrest the bloody drug dealing scum bag and have him put on trial. I'd like to see the authority dealing with social problems not just smashing heads. Unfortunately that’s never going to happen because the authority format now requires big screen full on high power action all the time.

 

In many ways that’s why The Ultimates is superior 15 pages of character development then 8 pages of big screen action then more character development then a big finally comic where the ratio is reversed or it just goes all action.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Id like to see the authority question their actions' date=' their mission, their sanity, and their ethics, get upset when they have to do unpleasant things for some reason the only one who does is Angie and occasionally Shen [not often enough though considering she was a pacifistic Buddhist at one point'] its probably some gender bias only the girls get upset about being evil.

 

I’d like to see them take killing as the last option not the first more often. I would have liked to see jack arrest the bloody drug dealing scum bag and have him put on trial. I'd like to see the authority dealing with social problems not just smashing heads. Unfortunately that’s never going to happen because the authority format now requires big screen full on high power action all the time.

 

In many ways that’s why The Ultimates is superior 15 pages of character development then 8 pages of big screen action then more character development then a big finally comic where the ratio is reversed or it just goes all action.

 

Agreed on all counts.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

> Rather, they needed them, because the "job" they put soldiers to was to

> the very boundaries of human brutality, and simply they couldn't trust

> people who were desentitised past that level.

 

OK, so only the bad guys need psychological hygiene standards? The good guys can let it all hang out a lot further, because killing 'bad' people is like some kind of immunity or something?

 

... Katherine, you're right. Different planets. No communication is going on here.

 

I give up.

 

*ignore list*

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Id like to see the authority question their actions' date=' their mission, their sanity, and their ethics, get upset when they have to do unpleasant things for some reason the only one who does is Angie and occasionally Shen [not often enough though considering she was a pacifistic Buddhist at one point'] its probably some gender bias only the girls get upset about being evil.

 

There indeed seem to be a gender bias in this as typically female member somehow raises a question about their actions, mission, and ethics, and male member reaffirms the rightness of the team's actions. Angie and Jack appear to be the regulars at this (probably because they are one of the two regualr couples in the team, and the other has gay machism written all over it in big neon letters). It's not that they do not make questions: they do. They question the rightness of setting themselves up as provisional US Heads of State, keeping alive the sentient parasitic civilization of the Chulhoid entity menacing Earth, surrendering visitation rights of their adopted daughter. It's they do not make the questions their detractors would like them to, because such choices were settled long ago as a central part of their moral outlook: they do not question killing mass murderer supervillains instead or sparing for trial, using lethal force in battle with their murderous minions, overthrowing dictatorships, bullying governments and corporations into reducing environmental damage or freeing occupied countries, and setting themselves beyond laws. They do make a lot of questions about killing when the enemy is morally ambigous (see Jenny Fractal). They are given an enemy that justifies it once every 20 issues, though.

 

I’d like to see them take killing as the last option not the first more often. I would have liked to see jack arrest the bloody drug dealing scum bag and have him put on trial. I'd like to see the authority dealing with social problems not just smashing heads. Unfortunately that’s never going to happen because the authority format now requires big screen full on high power action all the time.

 

Exactly. You are not going to see what you'd like for just that reason, just like you'r re not going to see the Joker given capital punishment after the 100th time he escapes and kills a busload of civilians. Script Mandate. If it weren't so, Authority characters would be given less thoroughly evil enemies, making sparing them immediate summary exceution more plausible, and less clear and present danger of city/earth/universe destroyed war situations, calling for swift and resolute lethal force as the more efficient way of saving the situation.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

I would have liked to see jack arrest the bloody drug dealing scum bag and have him put on trial.

 

From what Chuckg said, I thought it was a murdering scumbag? There's a world of difference, there. I haven't read the Authority since Seth was turned into a chicken, so I don't know how the book handled it, but on the face of it, it sounds just like what Daredevil did at the beginning of the movie.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

From what Chuckg said' date=' I thought it was a murdering scumbag? There's a world of difference, there. I haven't read the Authority since Seth was turned into a chicken, so I don't know how the book handled it, but on the face of it, it sounds just like what Daredevil did at the beginning of the movie.[/quote']

 

He was both. Kind of a vice lord type of guy. Hawksmoor was after him because he'd beaten to death a former lover of his. I think the issue was Jack didn't HAVE to murder the guy. He could have easily took him in and seen him tried, convicted and even "legally" (seeing as Hawksmoor the Dictator of the United States now "legally is questionable) but he killed him out of hand anyway. With Hawksmoor relative power level there is no question he could have captured as easily as killed but he chose to kill as his first option. Perhaps understandable, but hardly heroic in my opinion.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

The problem wasn't so much that Jack killed the guy. Its the idea that he enjoyed it, and looked upon it as a break and stress reliever over doing stuff like ruling a nation.

 

Its especially sickening, considering that you could *have* Jack become darker as an actual decent subplot, if you just gave a simple reason: all these times when cities are suffering mortal damage with him around, the screams of pain and anger in his head. . . its simply wearing at his sanity.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

... you could have Jack become darker as an actual decent subplot' date=' if you just gave a simple reason: all these times when cities are suffering mortal damage with him around, the screams of pain and anger in his head... its simply wearing at his sanity.[/quote']

 

That's a really cool idea.

 

The problem ... [was] the idea that he enjoyed it' date=' and looked upon it as a break and stress reliever over doing stuff like ruling a nation.[/quote']

 

Ah, well. It sounds like I picked a good time to stop reading the comic, unfortunately. I hate it when comics I like go downhill.

 

I think I'll ask around and see if any of my friends have The Ultimates. It sounds like it could be worth checking out.

[freakboy6117]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

he was a murdering scumbag but he ran prostituation and drug dealing[actually maybe it was just prostituation] in that area and he brutally murdered jacks social worker friend because she was trying to get his girls off the street. I disliked the Daredevil thing as well it just didn't seem heroic to just kill a guy even if he is guilty. this was probably worse as jack decided to beat/have the city swallow the guy and his minders to death on a crowded street.

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

The problem wasn't so much that Jack killed the guy. Its the idea that he enjoyed it' date=' and looked upon it as a break and stress reliever over doing stuff like ruling a nation. [/quote']

 

Question: did he appear to enjoy killing *per se*, which would be a novelty to him, or the act of killing the murderer of ex-loved one, which I can easily picture in his personality? Enjoying hunting and killing per se would indeed be a definite change for any Authority member (except maybe Midnighter) and one several shades of darker. Enjoying avenging a friend and loved one, I can easily picture any of them doing it. As a matter of fact, they indulge it abundantly at the end of the Seth story arc.

 

Another question: does anyone know the actual legal and political details of the Authority takeover? They appear to have assumed the powers of President and Congress, as they enact new laws by decree, and legalized their "above the law" status (some equivalent of diplomatic immunity ?), but are tribunals still running ? Is the Bill of Rights still in place ? Has their rule indefinite duration, or have they set new elections at a future date ?

[Wanderer]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

He could have easily took him in and seen him tried' date=' convicted and even "legally" (seeing as Hawksmoor the Dictator of the United States now "legally is questionable) but he killed him out of hand anyway.[/quote']

 

It is simply not part of Authority characters' mindset that recourse to tribunals is worth much for anything of real import like avenging the death of a loved one. For stuff like that, they address the issue hands-on. For their anarchic mindset, tribunals are the last and remote option. This does not appear to be changed by the fact they are now the ones issuing the laws. Don't know if they control tribunals: I think maybe not, since they suffer a civil suit for custody being raised against them.

 

Legal it is legal, technically. The word you are looking for is "democratically".

[Evil Toki]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Well on the issue of making light in the midst of combat, that is a common aspect of the military lifestyle. Killing is serious business, there needs to be an air of levity even the Spartans did this, they made light of this serious situation because to dwell on it is just too horrible for most to contemplate.

 

So yes I don’t see anything wrong with making a joke, or trying to brush off that act with levity, it only helps to maintain one’s humanity. And it does happen, it is happening and will continue to happen in just about any military in the world, including the Authority from what I am reading.

 

Action-movies of course play on this, but it isn’t like this is anything new.

 

Combat is hell, it sucks, but let’s face it, as far as Champions games, or comics are concerned they happen. Fighting and is often the focus of any character, and isn’t it odd that many abilities have an offensive and defensive slant to them to use just for combat? It may harsh, it may be brutal, but combat still has to be entertaining.

 

Now am I justifying it for myself, of course not.

 

But in the context of comics, especially Ultimates or Authority, there will be times of levity in the midst of combat it happens. That stress, which anguish has to be channeled somewhere. Soldiers are people first, they are honorable men and women who put their ass on the line for an ideal. Sometimes they don’t even believe in that ideal, but they still fight, glorifying violence is well… it isn’t good in the first place but violence is a way of life for most heroes.

 

I mean where would Superman be if he never raised a fist.

 

Just an extreme example but I think some are taking this to extreme it just sounds like the Authority is more graphic then other comics, but seriously Spiderman jokes all the time when he is fighting people. Sure he isn’t killing them, but he is still engaging in a life and death situation…

 

By the way I am in the military as well...

[SKJAM!]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Someone a couple of pages ago didn't know who Adrian Chase was.

 

Mr. Chase was actually called "the Vigilante"; he was more or less DC's attempt to copy the success at the time of the Punisher. He was introduced in the pages of New Teen Titans as the District Attorney of New York City (or some subsection thereof.) He was shown to be frustrated by criminals constantly getting off on technicalities or because they had really good lawyers.

 

So he donned a spandex suit and a bunch of gadgets (plus a gun) and went out to take the law into his own hands.

 

Mind, once we actually saw Adrian Chase in the courtroom, it became painfully obvious that he was the least-winning DA since Hamilton Burger*. He was losing cases that should have been gimme bait, and apparently completely unaware of the legal procedures that would have helped him. (Okay, this was mostly due to the writer not doing the research, but still ....) In Hero Games terms, he had the Psych Lims "Believes that 'the System' Does Not Work" and "Ignorant of His Own Incompetence."

 

*Actually, Hamilton Burger kept his job because he won every case not defended by Perry Mason. If it weren't for his "Must Defeat Perry Mason" Psych Lim, DA Burger would simply have said, "okay, Mason's defending this guy, so he's innocent. Go out and catch me the real killer."

[Chuckg]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

OK, went back and reread AUTHORITY #14 (vol 2)

 

Jack isn't as /elated/ as I remembered him from my first page-through I don't, upon further re-examination, see any obvious signs of joy. So strike any references to him being happy about killing in that issue.

 

He does, however, seem to have been /relieved/ by the opportunity for violence.

 

We should see more in the next issue, I hope.

[nexus]

Re: Ultimate vs The Authority

 

Question: did he appear to enjoy killing *per se*, which would be a novelty to him, or the act of killing the murderer of ex-loved one, which I can easily picture in his personality? Enjoying hunting and killing per se would indeed be a definite change for any Authority member (except maybe Midnighter) and one several shades of darker. Enjoying avenging a friend and loved one, I can easily picture any of them doing it. As a matter of fact, they indulge it abundantly at the end of the Seth story arc.

 

Another question: does anyone know the actual legal and political details of the Authority takeover? They appear to have assumed the powers of President and Congress, as they enact new laws by decree, and legalized their "above the law" status (some equivalent of diplomatic immunity ?), but are tribunals still running ? Is the Bill of Rights still in place ? Has their rule indefinite duration, or have they set new elections at a future date ?

 

It seems they are paying lip service to the idea of the US goverment but are basically acting as dictators. Free elections have been promised "At a later date".

 

I'm highly interested in this "Revolution" story arc, mainly to see how it ends up painting them as the good guys again.