nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority It is simply not part of Authority characters' mindset that recourse to tribunals is worth much for anything of real import like avenging the death of a loved one. For stuff like that, they address the issue hands-on. For their anarchic mindset, tribunals are the last and remote option. This does not appear to be changed by the fact they are now the ones issuing the laws. Don't know if they control tribunals: I think maybe not, since they suffer a civil suit for custody being raised against them. Legal it is legal, technically. The word you are looking for is "democratically". No, the word I'm looking for is legal. Hawksmoor has not been legally or democratically elected. Essentially, the US is an occupied nation in Wildstorm at the moment. Just the occupying force is particularly small. They are conquerers, not the legal government of the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I think what really gets to me is being told how much more this comic is "realistic" and "cutting edge" when its really got the same stuff in it almost every other comic has. The same script immunity (if not more so), the same black and white situations, exxagerated bad guys, hopeless panding to adolescent power fantasy just ramped up a notch or three. Just in a more violent and base fashion. Its "realism" is steeped in cynism and a political message that hits you like a hammer to the back of the head and heaping helping of shock value and T and A to help it all go down. Don't tell me this is high art compared to everything (or anything else) or some sign of the "new way" of how comics should be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I think what really gets to me is being told how much more this comic is "realistic" and "cutting edge" when its really got the same stuff in it almost every other comic has. Gets a bit to me too. It isn't Alan Moore, it isn't even Planetary or Supreme Power. It's basically an action comic book, even though it's a fun one, IMO. The only aspects that I think are more "realistic" than an ordinary book is that the superscience in Ellis issues were less Kirby and more Moorcock/Lovecraft/cyberpunk. I kinda like that. Even though it's perhaps a not really more realistic, just less unrealistic. Of course, Millar later went crazy with it, and would make Kirby proud. I also dig Warren Ellis's cinematographic style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority No' date=' the word I'm looking for is legal. Hawksmoor has not been legally or democratically elected. Essentially, the US is an occupied nation in Wildstorm at the moment. Just the occupying force is particularly small. They are conquerers, not the legal government of the United States.[/quote'] The legal government of a conquered nation is whomever the occupying force decrees it is. It is not legitimate, nor democratic, but legal it is. Once all organized armed resistance from legitimate governement has been vanquished by conquering forces, they structure the new government. Its decrees have full legal course. International law recognizes it. It sets some limits on the powers of the occupying force (assuming another country conquered; if private citizens issue a coup d'etat, then it is not a business for international law. Other nations eventually acknowledge the reality of facts, sooner or later depending on theri political sympathies, or go to war to oust them), but it recognizes the reality of facts. The winners are the government until either they decide to retire, grass-roots revolution or guerilla from the occupied oust them, or a third-party ousts them by armed force. Is there any organized armed resistance from the old US government to Authority ? Are the other major world powers sending their armed forces to free the US ? Is there either non-violent or armed resistance from US population strong enough to challenge their control ? If the answer is no, then Authority is the government of the US to all effects and in the eyes of the world. Their decrees have full legal force, the tribunals are bound by them. If and when the Second American Revolution manages to oust them, the new government can elect to void their laws *then*. Since Authority is a body of private citizens who claim extra-legal status (which might or might be not recognized by the international community; it is not clear in the comic), and have military power equivalent to nuclear superpowers, it is a rather murky legal issue whether WS USA is currently an occupied state by another conquering state, or a nation whose previous government was ousted by a coup d'etat. It might be argued that the Authority is a sovreign nation: they have the territory (the Carrier), the will to secede from other government authorities, and the power to effectively enforce their will. If their claim is not actively opposed by the international community, they are legally a sovreign state (and Authority members have diplomatic immunity as heads of state). If they are, they conquered the uS by an act of war, their control over US is fully legal, they are only bound to limit their control by the Geneva Conventions concerning the conduct of occupying forces (no indiscriminate mass killings, no deportations, etc.). If they don't they are war criminals. They have a lot of legal leeway, cfr. Israel in West Bank. If they are private citizens, then they have ousted previous US government by coup d'etat, and are legally free to do whatever they rewrite US laws to tell they can do, and are legally the new heads of state of the US (diplomatic immunity). Only if they grossly violate the human rights of the US population (mass killings, genocide, deportations), then they are legally liable to international law for crimes against humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I think what really gets to me is being told how much more this comic is "realistic" and "cutting edge" when its really got the same stuff in it almost every other comic has. The same script immunity (if not more so)' date=' the same black and white situations, exxagerated bad guys, hopeless panding to adolescent power fantasy just ramped up a notch or three. Just in a more violent and base fashion. Its "realism" is steeped in cynism and a political message that hits you like a hammer to the back of the head and heaping helping of shock value and T and A to help it all go down. Don't tell me this is high art compared to everything (or anything else) or some sign of the "new way" of how comics should be done.[/quote'] Two areas in which Authority is objectively more realistic vs. four-color comics: the way it pictures the outcome and consequences of super-powered combat (human flesh and building frame connecting with super-strong punch and plasm blast), the way it acknowledges politicians, governments, bureaucracies, organized religions and corporations are often corrupt and self-serving (the degree they are shown corrupt, though, is wholly unrealistic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority the way it acknowledges politicians' date=' governments, bureaucracies, organized religions and corporations are often corrupt and self-serving (the degree they are shown corrupt, though, is wholly unrealistic).[/quote'] I don't think that is so new. Most of said figures are pretty corrupt in some straightforward comics, especially Marvel. X-Men and Hulk come to mind. The backlash the Authority suffers from them is greater, but that may be because the X-Men never tried to take over the US. That is something Magneto would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Is there any organized armed resistance from the old US government to Authority ? Are the other major world powers sending their armed forces to free the US ? Is there either non-violent or armed resistance from US population strong enough to challenge their control ?. There wil be a series covering the "resistance" in a few months. Right now, they are surpressing the public outcry over their take over. For example the Doctor using his powers to turn the hurled debris at the motorcade into tickertape and flowers, that sort of thing. Of course there is not "civlian resistance" strong enough to challenge their control. This is the friggin' Authority we're talking about here. As for old government I beleive most of them are dead so for them resistance would be problematic. There's resistance, that's for damn sure, its just being basically ignored/surpressed. There is...oddly enough no international outcry. Again this is the Authority in their book. Of course they are right and entire world supports them "Putting those nasty Americans in their place" or such is implied. It would be they just don't want the trouble that would come with trying to stand up to these...characters. The legitimate US governement, flawed as it was in the Wildstom Universe has been unsurped by an outside force that has declared themselves beyond the laws and morality of mankind. Its not different from any other undeclared war or conquest except it was performed by superpowered beings. Its not even a popularly supported revolution. Doesn't matter how you phrase it. Its a take over and an occupation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Two areas in which Authority is objectively more realistic vs. four-color comics: the way it pictures the outcome and consequences of super-powered combat (human flesh and building frame connecting with super-strong punch and plasm blast)' date=' the way it acknowledges politicians, governments, bureaucracies, organized religions and corporations are often corrupt and self-serving (the degree they are shown corrupt, though, is wholly unrealistic).[/quote'] Well, as for point one. Not its not. Its just more gruesome. In most other comics, the heroes ARE holding back and trying not to kill their targets. They can and do kill when they have to, their first option isn't to just start popping heads. As for politics... No, not really. Comics have shown "eeeviiiiil" corporations, religous leaders, before and will again. It just doesn't indulge in the overblown "Must get The Man" mentality of comics like The Authority where everyone that isn't on way liberal left is a corrupt evil scum bag so as to cater to teenagers and arrested adolescents wanted to rebel against authority figures". Its pandering and at best, a cynical and myopic view of the world as seen threw a dirty window. Like someone else, ultra violent super powered hippies in a simple Us against They world. Its the same simple minded escapism of the silver age just with a lot more blood and sex. And that's what some people call realistic. *shrug* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I don't think that is so new. Most of said figures are pretty corrupt in some straightforward comics' date=' especially Marvel. X-Men and Hulk come to mind. The backlash the Authority suffers from them is greater, but that may be because the X-Men never tried to take over the US. That is something Magneto would do. [/quote'] To be honest, Authority takes over US after suffering repeated severe provocation from its goverment. First, POTUS, other G7 goverments and allied corporations unleash Seth against them (and they retaliate by eliminating goverment and corporate officials involved), then (I'm told) POTUS manages to almost plunge Earth in disastrous interdimensional war. "These politician moron mofos look they are never going to learn a lesson: For the sake of mankind, we're better take the helm before they do a *real* disaster". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority To be honest' date=' Authority takes over US after suffering repeated severe provocation from its goverment. First, POTUS, other G7 goverments and allied corporations unleash Seth against them (and they retaliate by eliminating goverment and corporate officials involved), then (I'm told) POTUS manages to almost plunge Earth in disastrous interdimensional war. "These politician moron mofos look they are never going to learn a lesson: For the sake of mankind, we're better take the helm before they do a *real* disaster".[/quote'] Seth was sicced on them by the g7 nations because the Authority was basically giving some of the most powerful figures in the world the finger and snickering about it. Sh*T happens when you do that sort of thing. The POTUS was framed. They needed a patsy and figured he was corrupt anyway so why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority There wil be a series covering the "resistance" in a few months. Right now, they are surpressing the public outcry over their take over. For example the Doctor using his powers to turn the hurled debris at the motorcade into tickertape and flowers, that sort of thing. Of course there is not "civlian resistance" strong enough to challenge their control. This is the friggin' Authority we're talking about here. As for old government I beleive most of them are dead so for them resistance would be problematic. There's resistance, that's for damn sure, its just being basically ignored/surpressed. There is...oddly enough no international outcry. Again this is the Authority in their book. Of course they are right and entire world supports them "Putting those nasty Americans in their place" or such is implied. It would be they just don't want the trouble that would come with trying to stand up to these...characters. The legitimate US governement, flawed as it was in the Wildstom Universe has been unsurped by an outside force that has declared themselves beyond the laws and morality of mankind. Its not different from any other undeclared war or conquest except it was performed by superpowered beings. Its not even a popularly supported revolution. Doesn't matter how you phrase it. Its a take over and an occupation. Nexus, this is just what I said it is. I was arguing whether it is an occupation or a coup d'etat. As for being a popularly supported revolution, well for now it is not. It might become, if they manage to rouse the popular support of the majority of population (but to get Americans support an undemocractic governent on long-term, they'd probably have to raise the living standard to science-fiction utopia). For now, they've cowed everyone enough to obey their decrees (sane and sensible option, if you aren't a cosmic-powered superhuman, or you hadn't the vast majority of your fellows behind you). And they aren't rounding up people for death camps, just enforcing a radical left political agenda, not much different from Nader winning control of White House and congress. Outrage at not having an elected government anymore is noble, but if they are going to stay in power just a couple years or so, is it worth to risk life to oust them sooner ? As for other major governments, well it's the firgging US they have conquered, not El Salvador. How much they'd take to do the same to Russia and China (who they have already cowed to leave Cechenya and Tibet). Plus, US government called for it (Seth, interdimensional war). And they now control US nuclear arsenal. Now, if I'd be them, I'd stay in power the minimum indenspensable to root out military, armed forces, and intelligence of people hostile to them, stabilize and raise living conditions and security, consolidate and costituzionalize their reforms (say, an handful of constitutional amendments enforcing gun control, universal health plan, effective minimum wage and environmental protection), then I'd retire and call new elections, being very, very clear to the public that if any new government is stupid enough to wage war on Authority or endanger Earth again, they'd be more than willing to take over again. By staying in power and enforcing an undemocratic government too long, they really risk to harden the hearts of the populace against them and end up in a lose-lose situation, with widespread grass-roots armed, or worse, non-violent rebellion: either they stoop to indiscrimnate repression and become the villains their detractors say they are, and retire disgraced and defeated. By foreseeing a second american revolution if they stay in power too long, the writers are doing realistically. As for the ultimate judgement their period in power, it depends as always from the ultimate historic outcome and the final moral and legal judgement will be rewritten accordingly. If it is successful, and they win hearts and minds, it will be blessed or grudgingly accepted as revolution. If not, it will be reviled as a dictatorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Seth was sicced on them by the g7 nations because the Authority was basically giving some of the most powerful figures in the world the finger and snickering about it. Sh*T happens when you do that sort of thing. and bloody, painful Sh*t happens to government and corporate bigwigs when they unleash a superpowered assassin against most powerful superpowered team in the world with anarchist vigilante outlook... and fail Anyway, the first shot of war came from G7. And in war, government officials are legitimate targets. And you are entitled to conquer enemy nations The POTUS was framed. They needed a patsy and figured he was corrupt anyway so why not? Are you talking about the Seth incident, or the interndimensional war one ? Because in the former, we are clearly shown POTUS making weak objections to aggression, torture, and brainwashing of Authority members, but utlimately accondiscending to all. If not a principal, certainly a willing accomplice. It is maybe questionable whether he deserves the summary execution he gets at the end of the story arc, but surely ousting was in order. Well, on a second thought, during the "new" Authority run, he unleashes them on environmentalist dissidents, so he deserves what he gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority and bloody, painful Sh*t happens to government and corporate bigwigs when they unleash a superpowered assassin against most powerful superpowered team in the world with anarchist vigilante outlook... and fail Anyway, the first shot of war came from G7. And in war, government officials are legitimate targets. And you are entitled to conquer enemy nations I'm just making it clear that it wasn't the Poor Innocent Authority hanging out and getting picked on.... Are you talking about the Seth incident, or the interndimensional war one ? Because in the former, we are clearly shown POTUS making weak objections to aggression, torture, and brainwashing of Authority members, but utlimately accondiscending to all. If not a principal, certainly a willing accomplice. It is maybe questionable whether he deserves the summary execution he gets at the end of the story arc, but surely ousting was in order. Well, on a second thought, during the "new" Authority run, he unleashes them on environmentalist dissidents, so he deserves what he gets. I was talking the interdimensional war incident. That first president was dumped in Iraq. Anyway, I'm out of this. Either your talking up a good game or you seriously beleive this garbage. Either way its useless to continue this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I'm just making it clear that it wasn't the Poor Innocent Authority hanging out and getting picked on.... Absolutely. from previuos story arc, they were somewhat aware they were going to meet serious opposition someday. Nonetheless, they let themselves be caught by Seth with their pants off in the most humilating way: talk about heeding to the hoary comic book tradition of the supervillain easily and swiftly defeating and rounding up their heroes at the beginning of the story. In this at least they are traditional. Though I felt sad for the poor pizza girl: That was sick from the writer (worse than the infamous diesel dildo). OTOH, Seth appears unstoppable even in the rematch, when they are prepared: Though they never get to fully coordinate. Seth looks like some Iron Age gritty version of Thor's Destroyer, with the armored appearance, murderous tendencies, unending set of destructive superpowers, and general "superweapon" outlook. I wonder how they'd fared if they hadn't known the disabling codeword. I was talking the interdimensional war incident. That first president was dumped in Iraq. Well, I'd always assumed that was an euphemism for meeting a bad end, just like the man impersonating Angie's abusive husband. Anway, that's one of the not-so-little realism glitches even I find annoying in the book. Superteam storm White House, kill, oust or dump away President and... nothing. No public outcry, no need to explain their actions to the world (like they had done previously), nothing. Anyway, they were quite popular with the public, so they could have triggered a Seth-gate by telling their version of the story (even in WS universe, G7 fears public opinion enough not to moving against Authority openly (they fake an incident). It takes a while to counter a reputation as saviors of the world. Anyway, I'm out of this. Either your talking up a good game or you seriously beleive this garbage. Either way its useless to continue this. ?HUH?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Wow, people abandon the thread like rats off a sinking ship. Anyway, I blew the budget for the month and get the first Tradexpaperbacks for The Ultimates, Ultimate X men and... The Authority. I figured if it was causing this much controversy I should at least have a look at it. It'll go with the Ramen noodles I'll be eating for the next two week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority OK, now, the *first* Trade Paperback for the AUTHORITY is before the massive moral rot really sets in. It's still edgy, but not psychopathic. Then again, the first TPB is before Jenny Sparks dies. Cynical, foul-mouthed, and depressed as she was (you have to have followed her prior career in STORMWATCH) to know why, she was that team's heart and soul. The comic never really recovered from the loss of both Jenny Sparks as a character and Warren Ellis as the writer, both on the same day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority A bit of info: if you find Ultimates interesting, bare in mind there is only one additional TPB for it, closing out the first volume of the series. IOW, unless you want to hunt down crossovers and such, its a low cost investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority But what about the important question? Which team would win a fight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorItron Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The Authority would win, by far. In keeping with the MO of The Authority comics, here's what the last panel might look like: Captain America's shield would be used as a platter. His head would be on it. Thor would have the hammer shoved up his butt. (no need to go any further with this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority My, that's vivid... *shudder* Well, my Aberrant fan friend and oft times GM is really loving the Authority. I have a strong suspicion what our next game is going to be like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Run, Katherine! Run like the wind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority But what about the important question? Which team would win a fight? The Authority in about six panels. The Ultimates are basically a weaker version of the Avengers, while the Authority is probably as powerful as the JLA. The Ultimates could last longer if they had their full membership (Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch make just occasional appearances and mostly as a running gag). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority But what about the important question? Which team would win a fight? I know who the losers would be: Anyone who read it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakboy6117 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Lol I’m imagining the fight between jenny sparks and ultimate THOR but now I realize they would probably fight for a bit then get bored and go off and shag some where. Midnighter and black widow would trade notes compare outfits and ogle Caps ass. Swift and wasp would probably have stuff to talk about being Asian babes with wings and the weaker members of their teams. Tony stark would probably try to get into Angie's pants and the specs for her nanotech. Apollo would sit in the corner looking grumpy because midnighter was ignoring him and ogling cap. And the doctor would probably just shoot up in a corner or something. And everyone else would just go out for beers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Don't tell me this is high art compared to everything (or anything else) or some sign of the "new way" of how comics should be done. You know, a few people have expressed this sentiment on the Hero Games boards recently, some of them doing so repeatedly, as if fighting off the hordes of people posting such opinions here... except that, as far as I can tell, no one has been posting such opinions here. I mean, come on: it's a superhero comicbook, and it isn't doing anything that hasn't been done in superhero comics before, really. The last "high art" superhero comic I read was V For Vendetta. As good as V For Vendetta is (and it is very, very, very good), I don't think any sane person would suggest that all superhero comics should henceforth be made in that mold. That'd be crazy-talk. So why argue so strenuously against a position that no one is defending? Maybe I'm missing something (it wouldn't be the first time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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