SPD + DC Balance Method

[Elbandit]

Howdy!

 

I have noticed that a number of the GMs utilize the SPD + DC=20 system for determining balance in a campaign. I am seriously thinking about using this method in my current campaign. My question is at what point do you raise the bar where SPD + DC = 21, 22 etc?

 

Do you base raising the bar on point totals from XP or just what "feels" right?

 

Thanks!

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

We've used that method in our campaign now for many years although the campaign started in 1992 with traditional damage caps, and it seems to work very well. We're currently using 20 as our cap number, but as our characters are fast approaching 400 points due to experience (with one just over at 401 CP) we're looking at raising it to 22 or 24. Since at this time no PC is even maxed out (We have several at 19) we're not in any big hurry.

 

The GMs will discuss it when the time comes that a player wants to hit 20, and I suspect it will jump to 22. But that's just my guess, and we have no set in stone method in our group besides the fact that we hash out pretty much everything as a group. With 5 GMs out of 8 players we have lots of input. Since I am the founder of the campaign I am the "primary" GM, but I always give the other GMs veto rights if they really dislike something I propose.

[DoctorItron]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

When I'm starting a new campaign, I generally give a suggested range for the important stats (i.e. SPD 4-7; DC 10-12; PD and ED 20-28; etc.).

 

I don't use them as absolute limits. When a character exceeds these limits on either the low or high end, then I'll do a more careful review to verify that the character is effective but not abusive.

 

Here's how I handle XP: I generally let players spend XP however they want, as long as it fits the character. All the players know that I reserve the right to request character modifications if I find something isn't working in my campaign. "Bob, I know you've had that power for 3 weeks, and I approved it, but now I see I made a mistake; that power is too effective and breaks the game." We'll then discuss possible changes. Having a set of mature players is very nice in regards to this.

[Netzilla]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Our group goes into a little more detail for combat balancing. Basically, we determine what combat values Average Hero will have (combat values being OCV, DCV, DEF, Damage Resistance, Stun, Rec, SPD and DC). We then use a spreadsheet to calculate approximately how long it would take a PC to KO Average Hero and vice ersa. Our campaign's goal is approximately 2 turns.

 

It's actually worked very well for us as we've had 20+ dice throwing bricks working along-side 8-dice throwing martial artists, 11-dice throwing energy projectors and other points in-between with no one PC dominating the combats.

 

I'd post the spreadsheet, but as it's not my creation, I'll need to ask the author first.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

A question regarding the SPD + DC system. Do you include the +4 Damage Class possible from a Haymaker in this equation or is this ignored?

 

What about Move Through damage or Move By damage?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Also, does any of the following: Armor Piercing, Penetration, Area of Effect, NND, Explosive, Double Knockback, AVLD, or Autofire count as a DC?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

How do you deal with the fact that points of SPD and numbers of DCs are not equally valuable? In other words, an 8 DC attack in a supers game is pretty low, but an 8 SPD is very high. It would seem that a character with an 8 SPD and 12 DCs would be much more effective than, say, a 4 SPD character with 16 DCs.

[BNakagawa]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

How do you deal with the fact that points of SPD and numbers of DCs are not equally valuable? In other words' date=' an 8 DC attack in a supers game is pretty low, but an 8 SPD is very high. It would seem that a character with an 8 SPD and 12 DCs would be much more effective than, say, a 4 SPD character with 16 DCs.[/quote']

 

Indeed. A PC can generate X * Y dice/turn where X is Damage Classes and Y is SPD. Unless the campaign average defenses are unusually high, I can't think of a good reason to not maximize Y.

 

Under these conditions, a simple balancing method where Damage Classes and SPD are counted equally is going to favor martial artist types.

 

The system that rates characters against a campaign average opponent is my ideal solution. It takes into account all of the major variables, accuracy, damage and rate of fire. Also a good method of judging a character's defense, simply apply a number of average attacks with average OCV and average SPD and see how many phases the character lasts.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

How do you deal with the fact that points of SPD and numbers of DCs are not equally valuable? In other words' date=' an 8 DC attack in a supers game is pretty low, but an 8 SPD is very high. It would seem that a character with an 8 SPD and 12 DCs would be much more effective than, say, a 4 SPD character with 16 DCs.[/quote']

 

Assuming those powers are all without any advantages.

 

SPD 8 with 12 DCs is going to be spending 48 END and have 4 less DCs to get pass defense then the 32 END of the SPD 4 with 16 DCs.

 

We also are looking at 42 Average Damage vs. 56 Average Damage. The SPD 8 is less like to get through, let alone cause STUNNING than the SPD 4.

[BNakagawa]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Assuming those powers are all without any advantages.

 

SPD 8 with 12 DCs is going to be spending 48 END and have 4 less DCs to get pass defense then the 32 END of the SPD 4 with 16 DCs.

 

We also are looking at 42 Average Damage vs. 56 Average Damage. The SPD 8 is less like to get through, let alone cause STUNNING than the SPD 4.

 

There are so many ways to get around the End problem, I'm not going to waste time listing them.

 

High SPD lower DC encourages playing the stun lottery. Depending on the average defenses, 4d6KA x8 might yield more damage than 16d6 EB x4.

 

The other significant drawback of having 4 big attacks a turn is that a higher spd opponent (and how many opponents do you expect to face with lower spds than 4?) can waste phases to abort to dodge, go desolid, missile deflect, block, dive for cover to render your attacks less reliable/useless and still have time to hit you back. Net advantage: faster guy.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

SPD 8 with 12 DCs is going to be spending 48 END and have 4 less DCs to get pass defense then the 32 END of the SPD 4 with 16 DCs.

However, in the vast majority of cases, since SPD is based on DEX, the SPD 8 character is also likely to have a higher DEX, and therefore to act sooner and have a higher OCV than the SPD 4 character. So even if somewhat less damage gets through per hit, he's more likely to hit, and more likely to hit first.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

How do you deal with the fact that points of SPD and numbers of DCs are not equally valuable? In other words' date=' an 8 DC attack in a supers game is pretty low, but an 8 SPD is very high. It would seem that a character with an 8 SPD and 12 DCs would be much more effective than, say, a 4 SPD character with 16 DCs.[/quote']It might seem that way in theory, but it doesn't work out that way in actual gameplay. The reason for that is the "threshhold" system of defense in HERO. If you don't do at least enough damage to leak STUN through to the opponent then for all practical purposes you might as well not have attacked at all. So if Kung Fu Boy smacks Bad Guy with a 12d6 attack but Bad Guy's defenses are 40 PD then KFB will do only 2 STUN on average. Strong Man's 16d6 attack on the other hand will on average leak 16 STUN through to Bad Guy, in effect doing 8 times as much damage each hit. So Strong Man might only need to hit Bad Guy 3 times to put the villain down, while poor Kung Fu Boy has to hit the baddie 22+ times. And that doesn't even factor in relative defenses between the strong but slow types versus the fast but less powerful archetypes. (Strong Man might well take no damage at all from an attack that will stun KFB.) Plus, MAs and other quick character often have to blow multiple phases dodging attacks a tougher character can simply blow off so their "extra" phases are often more theoretical than real.

 

Trust me, in our campaign our team's 4 SPD/15DC brick Silhouette never feels less useful than our 8 SPD/10DC martial artist Zl'f. Zl'f moves more than twice as often but what she can accomplish in those extra Phases is generally less effective.

[Agent X]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Speed + DC will work as well as pretty much any other "rule" but how do you take into account the character's defenses?

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Speed + DC will work as well as pretty much any other "rule" but how do you take into account the character's defenses?

This formula is an attempt to be as flexible as possible rather than as a hard and fast rating of combat effectiveness. All defenses are bought with the same points that buy all other Powers and Characteristics. It all seems to work out. (The high SPD/DEX character may well spend as many or more points on those characteristics as the brick does on STR.) If you want some kind of magic formula there isn't one, although Keneton's ER Rating spreadsheet works as well as anything else I've seen. (Nevermind that it's almost as complicated to use as designing the character in the first place.) This way is far simpler, but like anything else in Hero it requires the GM pay attention. No preset combat effectiveness system can't be perverted by a player determined to screw the system.

 

And of course, not every Hero game consists entirely of combat. Speed and Dex have little or no bearing on solving a mystery or outwitting a more powerful foe.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Our speedster has the lowest DEX in our game actually. My wife is playing The Greek (Weapon Master) with the lowest speed(SPD 4) is second in DEX only to our Energy Blaster.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Treb, in case you missed the question, do you weigh in Advantages to the chart and do maneuvers like Hay Makers allow the DC + SPD to go above 20?

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Treb' date=' in case you missed the question, do you weigh in Advantages to the chart and do maneuvers like Hay Makers allow the DC + SPD to go above 20?[/quote']Advantages count against the cap; Haymakers, Pushed attacks and the like do not because anyone can do them (Haymakers are very hard to deliver in actual combat, and in any case tend to favor heavy hitters more than fast characters.). Move Through/By is counted against the cap only if it is a relatively common form of attack by the character in question. This stuff has to be examined on a case by case basis rather than with a hard rule because each character is unique. (As an example, Zl'f might look like a speedster with her high SPD and DEX, but if she tried to do Move Throughs at her full 30" Running she'd Stun herself 50% or more of the time. She's actually a very fast MA who closes and fights hand to hand.)

 

I'm not claiming this is the Holy Grail of combat balance, only that it has worked very well for our group and I think it would do so for others. YMMV.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Thanks. I'm thinking of implementing something like that myself in my game. How much do advantages add on?

 

For example, what would you consider the effective DC if a 10d6 Armor Piercing Attack?

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Thanks. I'm thinking of implementing something like that myself in my game. How much do advantages add on?

 

For example, what would you consider the effective DC if a 10d6 Armor Piercing Attack?

I simply apply the Advantage cost. So 10d6 AP = 15DC under this system, at least as we implement it in our campaign. That seems to even it out pretty well, as I'm sure Mentor and Blackjack can attest as well.

[tesuji]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Two questions...

 

1. What can you tell us about the range of defenses, typical defense, etc used in your campaign?

 

I'm not claiming this is the Holy Grail of combat balance, only that it has worked very well for our group and I think it would do so for others. YMMV.

 

2. So, please don't take this thw wrong way, but when you say this rule works well for your group, what do you think it is "working well" at? What is the "thing" this rule accomplishes? Foe example, if two characters are both matching the 20, what does that tell you that you find useful and that they "work well"?

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Two questions...

 

1. What can you tell us about the range of defenses, typical defense, etc used in your campaign?

 

2. So, please don't take this thw wrong way, but when you say this rule works well for your group, what do you think it is "working well" at? What is the "thing" this rule accomplishes? Foe example, if two characters are both matching the 20, what does that tell you that you find useful and that they "work well"?

1) Defenses range from 12 PD/12 ED to 32 PD/28 ED, average mid-20's. Speed varies from 4 to 9, average 5.5. Attacks range from 10d6 to 15d6, average 12d6. Characters are 350 points plus XP, averaging about 40 XP at this time.

 

2) I guess I don't really understand what you're asking here. Are you unfamiliar with "Rule of X"? This is our simplified version, and it seems to keep our characters approximately equally useful in combat. It works as well as any of the literally dozens of other approaches I have either seen or tried in 22+ years of Champions. And if a simple method works, then why use a complicated one?

[Gary]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Because SPD is far more valuable than a single DC, I'd go with 2*SPD+DC <=X if I wanted a quick rule of thumb.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in CVs, defenses, or movements either.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Because SPD is far more valuable than a single DC, I'd go with 2*SPD+DC <=X if I wanted a quick rule of thumb.

 

Of course this doesn't factor in CVs, defenses, or movements either.

I could live with that if I had to, as long as the X is set high enough (A SPD 6 character could have only an 8d6 attack and a SPD 4 brick could do only 12d6 if it was set at 20, which I think is too low for a 350 point standard level game.). But fortunately I don't need to.

 

Nice to see you back on the boards, Gary. You've been sorely missed, both here and in the NGD.

[Gary]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

I could live with that if I had to, as long as the X is set high enough (A SPD 6 character could have only an 8d6 attack and a SPD 4 brick could do only 12d6 if it was set at 20, which I think is too low for a 350 point standard level game.). But fortunately I don't need to.

 

Nice to see you back on the boards, Gary. You've been sorely missed, both here and in the NGD.

 

 

Thanks Treb. I've just been horribly busy for the past few months.

[zornwil]

Re: SPD + DC Balance Method

 

Thanks Treb. I've just been horribly busy for the past few months.

Just to echo Treb, you've definitely been missed, good to see you. Sorry you've been so busy (unless it was some good stuff, of course).