godless fantasy

[chiralman]

I've always held a special place in my heart for clerics and their usefulness in dealing with the undead. That was old school and I choose to keep it in my new FH campaign. I want to thank Steve and co. for preserving that part of the genre in FH, and IMHO he handled the 'turning the undead' part particularly well.

 

However I really never liked meddling with the whole god issue, not that it bugged me as a Christian, but just because it made things unnecessarily muddled... especially when there were other 'magics' around that could be had by 'secular magic-users' in what is traditionally a polytheistic world in the genre.

 

So, I'm asking for opinions about the age-old quandry. Why would polytheism and magic co-exist? Not that it couldn't, but that I desire to put that last peice into the puzzle... even if it doesn't exactly fit well.

 

I want to keep the clerics and paladins, so I was thinking of making the 'gods' ubermages who took leave of this plane to be lords of other dimensions... yet that still doesn't seem to fit in with the magic schema. What if a cleric 'woke up' and realized that such powers can be self-derived... that would make for a great campaign theme... but it may also cause the so-called deity to eliminate the character 'in his wrath' (and to shut him up to cover up the truth), but it could happen I guess.

 

How can I justfiy 'prayer magic' as being separate from 'secular magic' in order to preserve the novelty and usefulness of the cleric's role in the genre?

 

Thanks for your opinions.

Ron

[Markdoc]

Re: godless fantasy

 

The simple answer is to MAKE them different.

 

Maybe only "prayer" can turn undead or raise the dead - maybe gods can offer things that magic cannot.

 

In my game, the gods are distant and (possibly) uninvolved. So some cultures argue whether there really ARE any gods. There are clearly powerful "somethings" out there but the differences between a really powerful mage, a god manifesting, or a demon might be pretty hard to work out for an observer.

 

Which explains by priestly magic and pagan magic can co-exist. Both sides claim they are on the right path...

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: godless fantasy

 

In the Real World, those who believe/believed in magic traditionally believed some combination of the following:

1) That magic comes from God/gods/spirits

2) That magic coms from internal willpower (Chi, psychic powers)

3) That magic is contained in materials in the natural world (Alchemy, herbalism)

 

The three belief systems mix together without problems. GURPS Voodoo, GURPS Spirits, and Authentic Thaumaturgy are all great resources for dealing with this authenticly in a game setting. If you wanted to do a little serious research on the topic, you could start with Joseph Campbell.

 

I ran one fantasy campaign where the world was a (reasonably) faithful reproduction of 13th Century Earth, as people at the time believed it to be. Priests drew their magic from God, Angels and Saints. White Wizards and Witches called on the Angels, Saints, Fey Folk (spirits of the dead and nature), Pagan gods (from a Christian point of view ou can look at them as spirits), natural magic (alchemy) and internal power. Dark Wizards and Witches drew on the power of the Devil. A system like that adapts fairly easily to D&D style fantasy; just increase the power of Pagan gods.

 

If as a Christian you just don't like allowing the existence of spirits or Pagan gods at all, you can classify them as Demons, or rule that those who draw power from them are really using internal magic (Chi, psionics).

 

If you want a style of magic with no conecton to God/gods at all, let Chi magicians have all of the power they have in Chinese Wuxia movies. Many of those magic-heavy stories are hundreds of years old. (To be fair, most of the most powerful magicians in Chinese myth and legend were also drawing on the power of gods and spirits; however, the Chi masters were always there.)

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Good points all, however lets turn the perspective over a bit...

 

Suppose that you were an obscenely powerful being, benevolent or otherwise, and you observe those devoted to your appeasement as 'holy' enough to help out on a regular basis. Now you see that those who are devoted to your appeasement are only a single decision away from corruption. That decision is solely reliant on when ('if' would be rare as far as gaming goes I suppose) the individual sees his life as one of 'slavery', vs. 'servanthood' to a god. Upon looking around, that individual can see similar benefits from other routes available in the genre. How do you keep your subjects in check?

 

I'm sorry if this is abstract, I don't think it is. Suppose we replace politics for religeon here for a minute. (...and the first one to switch this thread to a religeon vs. politics board will get ploinked!) But suppose that some rich kingdom observes a smaller, independant, country that is rich in resources and not under the kingdom's rule. What is most likely to happen? Invasion, overrule and enfoldment of the weaker into the stronger in most cases I'd guess... thus is the history of man.

 

Now as an obscenely powerful being, wouldn't you want to destroy all traces of 'pagan religeons' (i.e. magic) in order to keep the 'mana pool' pure? It would be in the interest of any single god to make followers of the whole world... imagine what a polytheistic scheme would do. It would be war between gods and no 'pagans' could possibly hope to stand up in power without an obscenely powerful sponsor of their own.

 

I'm having trouble comprehending a way that gods and pagan magics can co-exist for very long. For reference, ancient Israel was commanded to 'destroy every witch' among them in order to keep God's people from straying. I suppose I'm biased to that point of view as a reference.

 

(please don't turn this into a religeous debate... PLEASE don't turn this into a religeous debate... I'm only illustrating with the Israel example...)

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

The simple answer is to MAKE them different.

 

Maybe only "prayer" can turn undead or raise the dead - maybe gods can offer things that magic cannot.

 

In my game, the gods are distant and (possibly) uninvolved. So some cultures argue whether there really ARE any gods. There are clearly powerful "somethings" out there but the differences between a really powerful mage, a god manifesting, or a demon might be pretty hard to work out for an observer.

 

Which explains by priestly magic and pagan magic can co-exist. Both sides claim they are on the right path...

 

cheers, Mark

 

Ah... ok then here's a question. Where do priests glean their favor from if the gods are possibly uninvolved? Is it a willpower thing (such as the faith-based healing link in our modern world of medicine). As I see it, I think this beyond a mere 'black box' question. I think that there should be some justification as to how and why priests and cleric-types get their powers only if they pray and only if they're faithful... there has to be some subject of their devotion... doesn't there?

[OddHat]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Now as an obscenely powerful being, wouldn't you want to destroy all traces of 'pagan religeons' (i.e. magic) in order to keep the 'mana pool' pure? It would be in the interest of any single god to make followers of the whole world... imagine what a polytheistic scheme would do. It would be war between gods and no 'pagans' could possibly hope to stand up in power without an obscenely powerful sponsor of their own.

 

I'm having trouble comprehending a way that gods and pagan magics can co-exist for very long. For reference, ancient Israel was commanded to 'destroy every witch' among them in order to keep God's people from straying. I suppose I'm biased to that point of view as a reference.

 

(please don't turn this into a religeous debate... PLEASE don't turn this into a religeous debate... I'm only illustrating with the Israel example...)

 

Historically, Christianity took centuries to stamp out paganism in Western Europe, and never completely succeeded; they certainly hadn't in the 1400s. You could always take the view that God just hasn't finished driving off the Pagans (read the In Nominae game world books for one take on this).

 

You could run the game from a Christian Deist point of view and say that God does not choose to step in and stop Humans from worshipping false deities directly; he hopes that they will, they will be damned if they don't, but free will requires him not to step down and solve all our problems for us. The "false" gods worshipped by the Pagans are a problem for man to solve, not God. the campaign will then have a central theme of war, with the Church and Christian magicians on one side and the Pagan Gods, The Devil, and pagan Magicians on the other. I took this route but made it a three way war, as most Pagans would also oppose the Devil. Secular magicians will draw their power from anyone who will lend it to them, from Alchemy, and from internal powers.

 

Or you could GM from the Animist point of view, and say that all spirits exist, and that all gods, including the Christian god, are just more powerful spirits. In this POV, the Christian God does not yet have enough power to drive off His rivals, and must use His Church to weaken them by converting or killing their followers. The Viking raids on Churches can then be interpretted as the Pagan gods striking back.

 

If you want a no-conflict between religions world, say that all of the gods are part of a single celestial family (Greek model) or answer to a single Celestial Emperor/God (Chinese model). Conflict beyond a certain point is forbidden. Or go the Hindu route and claim that all spirits, including human souls, are aspects and reflections of a single God.

 

Also, by "pagan magicians" do you mean non-Christian priests, or are you including secular magicians who may or may not be Christian but do not draw their power from God or gods?

[Markdoc]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Ah... ok then here's a question. Where do priests glean their favor from if the gods are possibly uninvolved? Is it a willpower thing (such as the faith-based healing link in our modern world of medicine). As I see it' date=' I think this beyond a mere 'black box' question. I think that there should be some justification as to how and why priests and cleric-types get their powers only if they pray and only if they're faithful... there has to be some subject of their devotion... doesn't there?[/quote']

 

OK - for my players, I don't tell them: it's up to them whether they worship or not. The priests tell them that, sure there are powerful magicians about, but there are limits to earthly power - which don't apply to divine power. Since none of the players are magicians of earth-shaking power, how they respond to this line is up to them: they can't tell for sure. They can be faithful followers of their religion - and sure enough, it works if they toe the line and doesn't work if they don't. That tends to confirm their belief. I tend to throw in occasional "suggestions" that maybe the gods had a hand in things when they turn out beneficially.

 

OTOH, magicians have their own powers, so they (or their players) tend in general to be less interested in priestly stuff.

 

In my game, as a rationale, I posit that "magic" is the manipulation of the walls between worlds. Magicians do this by willpower, but making up little rituals to help you remember tends to reinforce the mental aspect: that's why magicians gesture and incant. Think of it as writing something down over and over to embed it in your memory.

 

Priestly magic (or demonic, for that matter) works exactly the same way. Players don't get told this!!! The difference being that the priestly magicians have basically a benevolent tutor of great power, so the spells they have tend to be "safer" to use - in other words, a lot of the kinks have been already worked out. They also have the possibility (remote, but still a possibility) of getting some direct help if it suits the god's designs. The same is true of people who serve malevolent powers (what people call demons) with the difference that such powers don't tend to care too much what happens to their servitors.

 

The kicker is that a lot of this manipulation happens on a largely unconscious level, in much the same way that moving your arm or walking, happens below the level of conscious thought. Magical creatures have the correct brain wiring to utilise magic correctly and without thought. Humans do so in much the same way that a person who has lost the use of a limb has to relearn to use it - consciously, by repetition. And you get a certain amount of flailing about in the process. That means that a priest who is conscious of doing "the wrong thing" often loses his magical powers - it's a subconcious fear that it won't work. Likewise a magician who loses his place in an incantation may flub the spell - even though the incantation is simply a memnomic - because he EXPECTS it not to work if the ritual is done incorrectly.

 

So what that means is that the Gods - and other things - are there, but your average priest will probably never see a manifestation. However, it only needs to happen once a couple of decades for the news to be all over - a 300 metre tall flaming figure melting a town to ashes, for example, tends to get noticed and talked about.

 

Of course one can never be sure if a) it's true or the huge figure was really there or just an illusion, or generated by a really powerful mage, or... In this way I keep the "possibly uninvolved" aspect. After all, proof removes the necessity for faith and without faith, you don't have a religion, but a utility service.

 

All of which is specific to my game, but offers a solution to your conundrum. It's the same solution that Christianity has offered up to the problems of a deity that is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent. If god is all powerful and all good, why do bad things happen?

 

Short answer - it's part of mysterious divine plan, which you couldn't understand, even if it was explained to you.

 

Long answer: if everything is clear and the penalties and benefits for specific actions are certain, faith is not possible and moral decisions are likewise meaningless (there's nothing moral about choosing not to steal if you know the result will be a thunderbolt between the eyes). If all decisions are constrained by God's direct action , then there's little room for free will. Thus God could ordain all things, but chooses not to - and if bad things happen in this life as a result, well this life is just a short trial ground and it will all be made right in the afterlife. It's how you choose that matters, not what happens.

 

Apply this rationale to the concept of God melting down all the pagans and that should do the trick, I think.

 

cheers, Mark

[JmOz]

Re: godless fantasy

 

In my fantasy world there is no difference:

 

The god of Magic/knowledge/learning etc... requires his priests to do certain things and does not care if they actualy worship him or not, in otherwords, anyone willing to learn the right invocations etc... may call on his powers (Mage magic)

 

Other gods are more particular about who they gift, some requireing actual worship, others only those who are furthering there dominions (The god of the forge might gift a blacksmith who is not very religious, but devoted to his work)

 

etc...

[Zeropoint]

Re: godless fantasy

 

In my personal take on things, magic works because the creation of the world has left the cosmos resonating with the fact that will can affect reality. Anyone capable of grasping this and applying their will properly can channel this "background noise" into magical effects. A "cleric" would just be a magic user who has focused on healing, purification, and anti-undead spells. Of course, as others have mentioned, being on the good side of a diety can have other benefits.

 

Markdoc, your approach sounds a lot like where I'm going with my magic system, and you'vve covered most of the points I would make.

 

Zeropoint

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Also, by "pagan magicians" do you mean non-Christian priests, or are you including secular magicians who may or may not be Christian but do not draw their power from God or gods?

 

Well I'd rather just keep 'real theology' out of the game world. No need to complicate or even potentially offend some player down the road so I would just avoid that pitfall all together. However, as I said, my perspective is from my own personal experience and thus I'm soliciting outside opinions.

 

By 'pagan magic' I'm simply differentiating it from 'priestly magic' which is more or less magic that is 'granted' from an outside influence and not to be as easily manipulated to the caster's will.

 

At present, the gist of all this is for me to keep the Turakian Age setting intact and universal without ignoring the pantheon, yet prepared enough to work such differences in the various sources of player powers. I think that there is way too much cultural investment in religeon to devoid any fantasy game from the religeous dimension.

[OddHat]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Well I'd rather just keep 'real theology' out of the game world. No need to complicate or even potentially offend some player down the road so I would just avoid that pitfall all together. However, as I said, my perspective is from my own personal experience and thus I'm soliciting outside opinions.

 

By 'pagan magic' I'm simply differentiating it from 'priestly magic' which is more or less magic that is 'granted' from an outside influence and not to be as easily manipulated to the caster's will.

 

Then I think you should probably use the term "secular magic."

 

"Pagan" implies a God / gods /spirits are involved in granting the magic. "Secular magic" would be magic not granted by any outside power. The only examples from historical belief I can think of right now are Chi using magicians from Asia (internal magic), some alchemists (most were religious), and some of the 19th century spiritualists. On the other hand, 20th century fantasy fiction added tons of sample cosmologies that allowed for magic unconnected to gods. Pick one you like.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Another possible rationale is to place the inherent limitation on what magic can be employed by any one person on that person's innate talent and gifts. Most adventuring characters have the potential to become truly exceptional in their fields of expertise, be it magic or fighting or stealth or whatnot; how many people have the talent, desire and discipline to become truly great musicians, or mathematicians, or athletes? And how many of those have the capacity to excel at more than one of those?

 

You can define different disciplines of "magic" as requiring particular innate abilities, and a particular mindset or way of looking at the world. These may be very different for a magician who attempts to summon and control spirits, versus one who seeks to channel the will of his deity. The latter may actually require the caster to have firm faith in the reality and rightness of his deity, to submit his own independent will to that of his god. If that's the case then the consequences of a cleric's transgression against that god - whether the gods in your world are real or not - would be self-fulfilling.

 

With that rationale, there would be no need for the gods to be real, or at least present, in your world for clerical magic to function... any more than faith in our world requires God's visible manifestation. Nor would the abilities of mortal magicians necessarily negate faith in divine magic; the accomplishments of modern science have not persuaded many people to abandon belief in God and in the miraculous, even among some scientists. If priests of a god can wield abilities that mortal magicians cannot (as in many game-world magic systems), that would reinforce the faith of the believers.

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Then I think you should probably use the term "secular magic."

 

"Pagan" implies a God / gods /spirits are involved in granting the magic. "Secular magic" would be magic not granted by any outside power. The only examples from historical belief I can think of right now are Chi using magicians from Asia (internal magic), some alchemists (most were religious), and some of the 19th century spiritualists. On the other hand, 20th century fantasy fiction added tons of sample cosmologies that allowed for magic unconnected to gods. Pick one you like.

 

Ah, ok. "Secular" works better for what I'm trying to say. I actually do know that so it was a poor choice of words I was using. I see your point and fully agree with it. Thanks.

[arcady]

Re: godless fantasy

 

All real world occult is associated with religion and spirituality on one level or another.

 

In effect, in the real world, there is only divine magic and no 'arcane' as DnD calls it. Even the claim of the hermetic mage - these people are working on rituals developed by Catholic circles by adopted methods used among the Pagans, Jews, and the Persians. Hermetics are divine occultists, just a little more arogant about it than others by claiming that they are lords over the divine rather than agents of it.

 

So, it makes more sense to remove arcane and give all magic some spiritual link. It does not however, need to be at all like the DnD method of being handed directly by divine forces - in fact that method is further from realism than DnD's arcane tricks.

[arcady]

Re: godless fantasy

 

I'm having trouble comprehending a way that gods and pagan magics can co-exist for very long. For reference, ancient Israel was commanded to 'destroy every witch' among them in order to keep God's people from straying. I suppose I'm biased to that point of view as a reference.

 

(please don't turn this into a religeous debate... PLEASE don't turn this into a religeous debate... I'm only illustrating with the Israel example...)

Well...

 

You've been trying to turn this into a religious debate several times actually, with a number of highlery slanderous and false statements about pagans and polytheists.

 

It's highly debatable as to that Israel note - considering that Jews don't seem to read the original text that way...

 

And...

 

Magic has ALWAYS been the domain of the polytheistic pagan religions of the world in history.

 

 

If you don't want to turn it into a religious debate, stop slandering other faiths. This thread makes a great candidate for being closed before it becomes a flame war.

 

Unfortunately that would mean closing it before people had a chance to counter some of your vulgarities... But it might be for the best.

 

It is quite possible to address the topic of magic in a game setting without divine powers, but I think it needs a new thread without such a plethoria of hate speach at the outset.

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

On that note, I would endorse a system where magic is the 'summation of life force' and can be used as some manifestation of what, for lack of a better word, could be ectoplasmic energies or the like. However it would take a GM more skilled than myself to actually keep a 'balancing' of all forces whereas energy from one place would have to be drawn from another. True, that could all be handled by the 'black box' but one would have to think that such things would adversely (and randomly?) affect the players at times as much as help them should there be a wizard among them.

 

So back to 'secular magic' and 'pagan magic', I would agree with arcady but this time avoid the semantic error of dubbing 'arcane magic' as 'pagan prayer magic'... it's not so much a matter of perspective (or semantics) as much as who, or what, would be the occult source. The way that the entymology would have me go with this would be to point 'pagan magic' (non-prayer magic) directly to a god-antagonist... namely a 'Satan-like source', and as far as this goes Satanism would go far to difine the parallel since you wouldn't have to 'worship Satan' in order to use such black arts. By definition anything that is used countered to a chosen benevolent god's approval would be 'black' or 'arcane' magics. Thus the source which could explain the origins of 'non-prayer magic' could really be a god-antagonist who would rather remain inconspicuous. Sorry again for leaning toward Judeo-Christian examples... but again, I'm just using it as a reference where you could replace 'Satan' with any 'anti-god' you prefer... thus making 'magic' and 'prayer' in fantasy games interwoven in many regards.

 

Now would that make all wizards suspect in a religeously centered world order? For me it would have to... wizards would be summarily outlawed in many cases, especially around towns which are unified on the diety worshipped. This is where many societial actions of the older references I've seen point directly to. 'Witches' are evil and 'Priests' are good, as far as classic literature goes. 'Magic' perverts nature and 'Miracles' give way to furthering the strength of faith of the worshipper.

 

...and is it possible for a priest archtype and a wizard archtype to co-exist in the same party for very long? Interesting...

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Well...

 

You've been trying to turn this into a religious debate several times actually, with a number of highlery slanderous and false statements about pagans and polytheists.

 

It's highly debatable as to that Israel note - considering that Jews don't seem to read the original text that way...

 

And...

 

Magic has ALWAYS been the domain of the polytheistic pagan religions of the world in history.

 

 

If you don't want to turn it into a religious debate, stop slandering other faiths. This thread makes a great candidate for being closed before it becomes a flame war.

 

Unfortunately that would mean closing it before people had a chance to counter some of your vulgarities... But it might be for the best.

 

It is quite possible to address the topic of magic in a game setting without divine powers, but I think it needs a new thread without such a plethoria of hate speach at the outset.

 

I apologize if I offended you. I won't be goaded into an argument. It's ok to disagree with me, lets just stay on topic. I'll respect your POV, it's quite helpful. I'd agree though, far better to close this topic before any flaming (including your last post) can ruin a, thusfar, adult and constructive conversation. I already admitted my ignorance in some of the words I've chosen and I can assure you that no insults were intended or intentional.

[arcady]

Re: godless fantasy

 

So back to 'secular magic' and 'pagan magic'' date=' I would agree with arcady but this time avoid the semantic error of dubbing 'arcane magic' as 'pagan prayer magic'... it's not so much a matter of perspective (or semantics) as much as who, or what, would be the occult source. The way that the entymology would have me go with this would be to point 'pagan magic' (non-prayer magic) directly to a god-antagonist... namely a 'Satan-like source', and as far as this goes Satanism would go far to difine the parallel since you wouldn't have to 'worship Satan' in order to use such black arts.[/quote']

Here you go again.

 

Cut it with the hate-mongering please.

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Here you go again.

 

Cut it with the hate-mongering please.

 

I'm afraid you're not reading it as intended. I'm basing my arguments off of classical Western literary treatment of the subject. "Hate-mongoring"? Interesting. I apologize to you, arcady.

 

Teach me how you'd approach the subject that I'm getting at. I could be missing the target by a long shot. I'm not above correction, my friend. I've tried to be careful and almost overtly apologetic to my admittedly biased viewpoint. I'm not exactly a scholar on the subject and that's why I've opened this thread for discussion.

[Trebuchet]

Re: godless fantasy

 

"Godless fantasy"? Isn't that a descriptive term for marxism? :

[Just Joe]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Suppose that you were an obscenely powerful being, benevolent or otherwise, and you observe those devoted to your appeasement as 'holy' enough to help out on a regular basis. Now you see that those who are devoted to your appeasement are only a single decision away from corruption. That decision is solely reliant on when ('if' would be rare as far as gaming goes I suppose) the individual sees his life as one of 'slavery', vs. 'servanthood' to a god. Upon looking around, that individual can see similar benefits from other routes available in the genre. How do you keep your subjects in check?

 

Now as an obscenely powerful being, wouldn't you want to destroy all traces of 'pagan religeons' (i.e. magic) in order to keep the 'mana pool' pure? It would be in the interest of any single god to make followers of the whole world... imagine what a polytheistic scheme would do. It would be war between gods and no 'pagans' could possibly hope to stand up in power without an obscenely powerful sponsor of their own.

 

I'm having trouble comprehending a way that gods and pagan magics can co-exist for very long. For reference, ancient Israel was commanded to 'destroy every witch' among them in order to keep God's people from straying. I suppose I'm biased to that point of view as a reference.

There are many, many ways of handling these issues, depending on your views about the nature of the gods, their power, and their motivations. For example, maybe the gods don't want everyone to worship them; they might be happy with a small number of devoted worshippers. Maybe they don't care about 'mana pool' purity, or maybe they have their own personal mana pools which cannot be corrupted. The gods might believe (correctly or incorrectly) that their followers will never see themselves as slaves. Note that their followers need not be primarily motivated by power, and even if they are, those followers (a) might not have the aptitude to acquire magical power without divine influence or ( might not be able to acquire particular powers (e.g., healing) without divine influence.

 

Or maybe the gods, as powerful as they are, can't influence our world except through their priests (or it is very difficult for them to do so, or they are reluctant to do so for some other reason). Maybe they ARE trying to wipe out non-priestly magic, but their power (or that which can be projected into this world) is not (yet?) sufficient to succeed.

 

Or maybe the gods are too busy warring against one another (in two or more factions) to expend much energy on non-priestly magic-users.

 

Those are just a few of many possibilities . . .

[Just Joe]

Re: godless fantasy

 

[Teddy Roosevelt Quote]

 

[Off Topic]: Actually, many (though certainly not all) who are not well off ARE the victims of injustice, and in TR's time, many of those injustices were horrendous, and were decidedly NOT correctable by hard work.

[OddHat]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Teach me how you'd approach the subject that I'm getting at. I could be missing the target by a long shot. I'm not above correction, my friend. I've tried to be careful and almost overtly apologetic to my admittedly biased viewpoint. I'm not exactly a scholar on the subject and that's why I've opened this thread for discussion.

 

One of the points you seem to be missing is that Pollytheists, Pantheists and Animists all have philosophical systems allowing for magic granted by multiple deities that are not in oposition to one-another. The "Magic not from God must come from Satan" idea is only part of your campaign if you choose to make it part of your campaign. Even with an absolute God and Satan world view in a game, there's nothing stopping you from having other gods as non-oposed entities (see the game In Nominae), or magic derived from forces "natural" to your game world (see the Warlock In Spite of Himself books, and huge numbers of other modern fantasy novels).

 

If you want to run a Christian game-world, do so. However, there are huge numbers of other approaches.

 

Edit: Also, it should be noted that this is just a game. You are not required to believe in elves, fairies, dragons, magic, or flying men in capes to include them in your game world, or use them to tell a story. You are also not required to believe in your game world's theology to use it to tell stories. If you feel otherwise, it might be best to stick to historical simulation games.

[Trebuchet]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Actually' date=' many (though certainly not all) who are not well off ARE the victims of injustice, and in TR's time, many of those injustices were horrendous, and were decidedly NOT correctable by hard work.[/quote']TR's quote is quite clearly directed at those cynically manipulating the unfortunate rather than the unfortunate themselves. I'm sure those persons actually experiencing it know it and don't need some lawyer or activist to point out their misfortune. But some unethical people make a living exploiting those unfortunates. There is an entire industry devoted to manipulating the unfortunate for their own gain rather than for altruistic reasons.

[Korvar]

Re: godless fantasy

 

There's at least one godless fantasy setting - WotC's Dark Sun setting, since discontinued but kept alive at http://www.athas.org.

 

Basically, Arcane Magic is taking power from life energy (at lower (PC) levels, from plants) and using that for spells. Overuse of this kind of magic has devestated the world, so Wizards are hated and feared.

 

There are also priests - Elemental Priests make pacts with the Elemental Powers to try and restore the balance of the elements, and return the land to it's former glory. Druids are similar, but make pacts with Spirits of the Land that are tied to particular areas. And there are also Templars, servitors of the incredibly powerful Sorcerer-Kings that rule the few remaining City-States, who can gift their minions power similar to the Elemental Priests.

 

Finally, there is Psionics - "The Way" - that can be practiced by almost everyone to some extent.

 

So there, three "magic" systems, no gods, no waiting I run a Dark Sun campaign with Fantasy Hero (well, I did, until I suddenly got put onto permanent night shifts). Good fun. Kind of post-apocolyptic fantasy / Mad Max / Dune.