godless fantasy

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: godless fantasy

 

D&D has addressed the issue of 'godless clerics' by stating that all that is necessary is belief; in *what* is essentially irrelevant. You can have a cleric of a god, or a cleric of a philosophy or ideal, and each is just as much a cleric as the other. D&D's new Eberron setting has gods, but they aren't the typical, Greek-style meddlesome gods; their existance is speculated upon, but cannot be proven. So, it may be godless, it may not.

 

Cleric and Wizards can easily exist together if you consider that power is power and is not, inherently, good or evil. It's what you do with it that matters.

 

A wizard can roast an invading, hungry, villager-eating troll with a fireball. That's good.

A wizard can roast an innocent villager with a fireball. That's bad.

A cleric can use his powers to heal those who were injured in the troll's attack. That's good.

A cleric can use his powers to heal the troll so it can continue its assault unhindered by the fireball. That's bad.

 

(I'm playing a Lawful Good, Exalted (which means REALLY DAMN GOOD) Necromancer in a game right now. It's easier than you'd think ... it means I just don't create undead.)

 

Besides, even if you do make it 'official' in your gameworld that magic comes from an evil source, is there anything more satisfying than to use that power for the greater good? Several comic-books have addressed this concept ... the more recent Ghost Rider and Damien Hellstrom both used demonic power in heroic ways, and there have been several 'holy' characters who have turned out to be real jerks. I would think RPing a character in the 'evil power, good ways' could be quite entertaining.

 

"Join me, Luke ... *psssst-FFFFFFT*"

[chiralman]

Re: godless fantasy

 

One of the points you seem to be missing is that Pollytheists, Pantheists and Animists all have philosophical systems allowing for magic granted by multiple deities that are not in oposition to one-another. The "Magic not from God must come from Satan" idea is only part of your campaign if you choose to make it part of your campaign. Even with an absolute God and Satan world view in a game, there's nothing stopping you from having other gods as non-oposed entities (see the game In Nominae), or magic derived from forces "natural" to your game world (see the Warlock In Spite of Himself books, and huge numbers of other modern fantasy novels).

 

If you want to run a Christian game-world, do so. However, there are huge numbers of other approaches.

 

Edit: Also, it should be noted that this is just a game. You are not required to believe in elves, fairies, dragons, magic, or flying men in capes to include them in your game world, or use them to tell a story. You are also not required to believe in your game world's theology to use it to tell stories. If you feel otherwise, it might be best to stick to historical simulation games.

 

Whoops, Christianity is not the point of this thread. The God/Satan paradigm is not part of any game I've ever played simply because I don't think that it would work, but that's my personal choice. YMMV. Originally I was pre-empting any 'why don't you want gods?' questions but I can see now that it may have been a more confusing statement than one helpful to my point. If we can keep the discussion going by keeping to literary treatment of the subject I'd be grateful. After all, I wouldn't want to endorse 'hate-mongoring'...

 

So to reiterate, I'm just wondering how 'magic' and 'prayer' co-exist in the fantasy genre, what differentiates one from the other, and whether or not the practitioners would naturally be at odds with each other. Make it a game balance question if you need to. It's all at the top of the thread.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: godless fantasy

 

A lot of it does depend on the world and the god(s) in question. In most cases, though, it doesn't matter which type of power you tap. It just matters what you use it for. For example, a priest of a god of (grabbing randomly) Justice and Truth probably wouldn't care what a wizard was using his magic for, unless it directly opposed his belief system (say, letting him tell lies and con the public into giving him money). A priest of a god of nature isn't going to care what a wizard does with his magic, unless it threatens nature.

 

This presumes, of course, a 'neutral' form of magic. The Dark Sun method of drawing magic from the land, potentially damaging it, would mean that a wizard and priest of nature god would be innately opposed (though not necessarily violently). Individual temperaments and attitudes also affect this; it is, theoretically possible, that some well-meaning sort could get a wrong idea in his head, or simply have his head shoved so far up his *censored* that he becomes so arrogant that he feels his way is the only way, whether divine *or* arcane.

 

Typically, as I understand it, divine magic is more powerful but has a limited scope. For example, you're a priest of a god of Justice and Truth. That's *all* your spells pertain to ... but you're *very* good at things pertaining to Justice and Truth. A wizard is more eclectic, since he can easily dabble in multiple fields, whereas it's theoretically difficult to worship multiple gods.

 

In short, it doesn't matter what you do, it just matters what you do with it.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: godless fantasy

 

What I think Chiralman is getting at is this: If you can have power in your own right, why bother going through someone else (regardless of how powerful they are) to get that power? A lower scope analogy might be, why become a lieutenant to the King of Thieves when you can run your own little gang and get the same cut of the loot?

 

There are a couple of reasons I could think of right off the bat. The first is that the character truly believes in the cause. If a character truly believes that the surest way to a happy afterlife is to die in battle, he is more likely to become a chaplain for a military unit than to go study the forces of nature. Therefore the war god rewards his faith by providing minor miracles on call. Nothing kept Chaplain Sirrmah from becoming a wizard, but it wasn't in his nature, his destiny, his calling...whatever you want to call it.

 

The next reason might be that some people CAN'T just become a mage and dispense with divine magic. For some people, faith in a higher power comes much more easily than self-discipline, research and study. Some people perhaps try and fail at secular wizardry, but later succeed in the priesthood without particular effort.

 

Game-mechanics-wise, there's rarely much difference. Few people want to become a master of a worthless sort of magic, playing second-fiddle to someone else's apprentice. Games are set up so that, in general, one type of magic is comparable to any other. If you wanted to amp one type up over another in Hero, it would be very easy...just don't expect many players to get excited over the magic type that gets the short end of the deal.

[OddHat]

Re: godless fantasy

 

So to reiterate, I'm just wondering how 'magic' and 'prayer' co-exist in the fantasy genre, what differentiates one from the other, and whether or not the practitioners would naturally be at odds with each other. Make it a game balance question if you need to. It's all at the top of the thread.

 

Well, from a historical-occult point of view they are almost one and the same. There was no hard and fast distinction made. In a game world it's up to you.

 

Personally, I like the idea of well-educacated and impious city folks becoming wizards, while humble country-folk and pious but proudly ignorant nobles become priests for a D&D type setting. A few scholarly priests for flavor. Faith is the major distinction; no need for conflict except as it helps the game.

[Xiawarr]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Actually in both Runequest (3rd Edition, I believe) and Shadowrun, there are good examples of magic without gods.

 

In Runequest, you have sorcery (similar to classic D&D wizards) and Spirit Magic (read: Shamans) who control and summon spirits to create spells. Runequest, also had divine magic, but I remember in the "A Shaman's View of Glorantha" that the Shaman telling his young apprentice, that divine magic users were duped by powerful spirits... they weren't gods, just tricky and very powerful spirits!

 

In shadowrun, similar dichotomy: Hermetic magic, requiring rituals, incantations, objects of power; and Shamanism, which requires a journey to the spirit world and association with a particular totem spirit.

 

One last source of interesting non-divine magic: Al-Quadim. There was a sorceror class (I forget the actual term), which used summoning of genies to retrieve spells on their behalf.

 

I hope this is helpful.

[Just Joe]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Apologies to all for staying off-topic, but this is where I happened to stumble across Trebuchet, so . . .

TR's quote is quite clearly directed at those cynically manipulating the unfortunate rather than the unfortunate themselves.

That might be clear from context not provided here, but the statement in isolation looks to me like it is meant to apply to those who genuinely believe they are doing others a service by pointing out an injustice.

 

I'm sure those persons actually experiencing it know it and don't need some lawyer or activist to point out their misfortune. But some unethical people make a living exploiting those unfortunates. There is an entire industry devoted to manipulating the unfortunate for their own gain rather than for altruistic reasons.

In some cases, they might need to be told that their misfortunes are due to an injustice (e.g., disease caused by pollutants) or might need to be told that there is legal recource to address that injustice. And though there are undoubtedly many who exploit the unfortunate (you can add unscrupulous televangelists and other preachers, for example), I'm sure there are also many lawyers, activists, and preachers who act at least partially out of altruistic motives.

[Vondy]

Re: godless fantasy

 

Why not tell the players what religions are out there and not tell them whether or not God/the gods/the whatevers are real. Maybe all magic is sorcerous in some ways, but each religious sect has its own mystic secrets that it zealously guards. Or maybe all sorcerers entreat, compell, or manipulate extra-dimensional or spiritual beings for power. Some are more powerful than others (and all grant varied powers). Whether or not the really powerful ones with religions directed at them are gods are not - depends who you ask...

[Alverant]

Re: godless fantasy

 

One solution I like is having magic be a force of nature. Nonintelligent (or at best semi-intelligent), not aligned to good or evil, it simply is. Animals and plants have evolved to use this energy like how birds evolved to use flight (hence dragons, beholders, krakens, umber hulks, etc). Magic is used by force of will, generally on an instinctive or genetic level (a gene that directly taps the power with other genes channeling it). That's why the powers of monsters are mostly simple and unrefined except for the intelligent ones who have learned how to adapt.

 

Humanoids access to magic is also through will, but without the adaptations of monsters, they have to do it differently. Think of spells like a computer program. Different computer languages are better in different areas. SQL is for databases, COBOL for businesses, and so on. Because of the complexities of the "languages" most people specialize in one particular area. Divine, shamanic, sorcery, witchcraft, ... are all different ways of accessing the same force. This would mean that with enough time and patience, a wizard could turn undead or heal wounds while a cleric can cast fireballs. All the limitations are rooted in society and the philosophies behind the different schools.

 

The gods are manifestations of their followers. Figments of the imagination come to life. They have no real power. If the gods were to kill each other, they would just remanifest when they have enough "prayer power" to do so. While the gods may exist, they are but glorified ghosts with about as much power in the physical world. The only way to kill a god would be to kill or convert enough worshipers to make cohesion impossible. The gods would discourage it to keep the balance of power. If one got too powerful the others would unite to knock it down out of a sense of self-preservation.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: godless fantasy

 

The way I'm working my next fantasy campaign, there is a secular, natural, force-of-nature magic, and a magic that involves bargaining with otherworldly spirits. Pretty much the standard Arcane vs Divine split, except that some of the spirit magic falls into areas that would normally be called Arcane. Priestly magic, shamanistic magic, necromancy, demon-summoning, anything like that falls into the bargaining type magic (which I plan on shamelessly stealing from Valdorian Age, so please hurry it along).

 

More on topic with "godless fantasy", my force-of-nature magic will have two main divisions. The first type will be the people who have studied magic and the theory of magic intensively, and are capable of nearly any effect, and the other type will be people who have studied a more restricted discipline. The first type will have to have all sorts of Knowledge skills, and several Power skills, and will eventually be able to buy a small VPP. The other type will only require one Power skill to use magic, but will be restricted to effects within that area of expertise, such as alchemy or astrology or herbalism.

[Edward Kann]

Re: godless fantasy

 

"How do faith and magic co-exist in a fantasy campaign?"

 

I suppose it depends on how you define magic and how you define faith. The great thing about writing a story, in my view, is having the freedom to create your own setting and push and pull on things to tell the story that you've been trying to craft for your viewers, readers or in this case players.

 

I would say start with the story first.

 

You might come up with one hundred and fifty different spiffy new spells, character types, skill sets, monsters, descriptions of religions, whatever...

 

It all is sort of a pointless exercise unless it hangs together and means something in the context of your story. Ok that's not completely fair. I do like crunching out a few magic items and spells or monsters at random like the next person does and not necessarily just for plugging them into a setting.

 

I suppose what I am trying to say is; is this the real road block you are facing as a writer and storyteller? Is it in coming up with a nicely meshed magic and clerical system of spells? I know THAT can be tough from my own perspective.

 

When I work on my own material I always go back to the story. What am I trying to communicate?

 

Are priests protagonists or antagonists? Are wizards all antagonists? What is it about the priests that makes them heroic. Are they all heroic and is the setting very three color? Is there room for individual groups to be villains in the priesthood and how do you account for their magic still working if they are?

 

If your trying to craft a story where the good priests get their magic from "Norma the Kindly Plant God" but loose their good magic when they become evil and have to conceal the source of their magical spells as coming from "Fruit Roll Up The Vile - Evil Pastry God of the Underworld" well then you have the beginning of some plot complications and some nice layers to your story.

 

Try focusing on the characters and what makes THEM interesting and also the setting and how it might appear if it were illustrated or in a film.

 

Anyway that is my advice in the moment.

 

Take Care,

 

Edward

[Talon]

Re: godless fantasy

 

The way I generally see it is that "arcane" magic comes from worldly sources: innate laws of nature, low-level spirits, all-encompassing energy field, whatever. Divine magic comes from the gods -- even in D&D when you are worshipping an ideal, gods who favor that ideal are lending you power (again, this is just how I see it). Wizards gain power, but lack the support (both in this life and the next) that a god provides to priests. Playing a cleric in my campaigns has drawbacks (the god watches your behavior) but also benefits (the god may give you extra help in time of need). Anyone who worships can get help, but of course clerics are special.

 

In my FH world it's a bit different but the basic idea is the same: laws of magic are there to be used, while powers of faith require a different kind of connection.

[tm80401]

Re: godless fantasy

 

The way that I usually run things is that Magic is an inanimate force that pervades reality and can be manipulated by, in essence, belief. Secular spell casters truly believe that their incantations, gestures, components, etc. are what manipulates magic, not thier belief.

 

People, of whatever species, believe in their gods, so the magic makes them exist. Priests believe that their gods give them powers, so they have them.

 

People believe that only priests can perform certain magical effects, so that's the way it works. Perhaps the gods do directly bestow powers on their priests, because the gods exist due to belief, as long as that priest truly believes and brings others to believe in the god, they get 'rewarded'.

 

Gods don't engage in wholesale war over believers because every REAL believer that they lose diminishes them. Most people don't really believe, they just go through the motions, so losing a very few key believers can severly effect a god.

 

Why don't we get new gods? Because the old ones protect their territory and it is unlikely that a new weak god would survive to become a threat.

 

Not a very complementary view of gods, but it does generally fit deific behaviior throughout human history.