AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

[Agent X]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

It's an EXCRAPAGANZA bound to make Marvel regret their continuing need to defecate on their readers. One would think they would have learned from the Spider-Clones debacle.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

You know, I couldn't get that to load properly and did not see that Diamondback was dead. I can't believe Robert Kirkman handled that so poorly, I've been very impressed with him so far. Maybe it was an editorial mandate and he did it as sloppily as possible in protest.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

CAPTAIN AMERICA SPOILER WARNING

 

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(snip)

It was so hideously stupid that I actually went back over the last couple of issues searching for clues as to whether or not 'Rachel' was actually an LMD. While she might possibly have been, magic 8-ball says, "Outlook Not Good".

 

I didn't read the one where RS kills her, but I read a few of the prior ones. As soon as I saw her with the Skull, my initial thought was "Oh, LMD."

 

Genre fiends/continuity miners think alike.

[Chuckg]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Well, outside of the fact that she's inexplicably way out of character -- which, given that this is 'Avengers Disassembled' we're talking about here, isn't necessarily proof of anything except really stupid writing...

 

... the one piece of genuine physical evidence that says "LMD" is the fight scene vs. the Serpent Society. The Asp fires her bio-electric venom blast at both Cap and Diamondback.. and *he* goes down, but *she* doesn't feel it? Weird.

 

Sadly, there's an even more compelling piece of physical evidence that says it was genuinely Rachel -- the simple fact that you can't kill an LMD by strangling it. And if you twist the neck until it breaks, the sparking wires coming out tend to give it all away.

 

Hence, "outlook not good".

[Metaphysician]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

The more I think about it, the more the New Avengers roster seems like it doesn't *have* to suck, in and of itself. Yeah, its not the most logical roster, but it at least has some story potential.

 

However, the sheer amount of gratuitous slaughter in Disassembled gives me zero confidence. If the New Avengers don't suck, it will be after somebody *else* takes over the reigns.

[Hermit]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Ugh.

I know this sounds sad considering my Avatar, but I'm glad I'm not reading Captain America right now.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Ugh.

I know this sounds sad considering my Avatar, but I'm glad I'm not reading Captain America right now.

 

I can relate. Cap has been entirely awful and painful outside Avengers for several years now, as has Iron Man. At this point, I'm starting to feel the characters Marvel kills off are the lucky ones - they don't have to continue to have indignities heaped upon them.

 

But who knows, at this point they'll probably do a post-Dissembled story where the Red Skull and Vermin unearth Diamondback and Hawkeye's corpses and commit necrophilia upon them.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

But who knows' date=' at this point they'll probably do a post-Dissembled story where the Red Skull and Vermin unearth Diamondback and Hawkeye's corpses and commit necrophilia upon them.[/quote']

 

Oh come now. That's way out of line, even Marvel/Bendis wouldn't do that. It's completely unprecedented - Vermin is associated more with Zemo , not the Red Skull!

[psm]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Personally, I'm excited about the upcoming storyline. After collecting the Avengers for about 2 decades it's time for a change. I have faith in Bendis. He's never dissapointed me although, I do find some of his other work more intriguing. Plus, I like when fans who can't handle any sort of real change start whining. Its a comic for god's sake. We should be so lucky that we get to be entertained every month. As fans we often forgot that we are owed nothing by the creators.

 

Come on, is it really that hard to accept that Spiderman and Wolverine will be on the Avengers. Its still the Avengers. Its still Cap and Ironman leading the team.

[Pegasus]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Ok, I guess this is a moot point now, but I just saw the #502 cover, and I have to ask...what's with Hawkeye's cyborg arm?

 

...But who knows' date=' at this point they'll probably do a post-Dissembled story where the Red Skull and Vermin unearth Diamondback and Hawkeye's corpses and commit necrophilia upon them.[/quote']

 

Not in california, they won't--it's illegal now, you know.

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I think you must be using "entertained" in the broadest sense possible. Given the rampant cynicism and self indlugent tone of Bendis's writing and the very real fact that he seems to have the same sort of contempt for history and characterization that Byrne has, I'd say I'm entertained. Hell, outside of a really gorey car wreck it's hard to find anything as "entertaining" as Bendis's Avengers.

 

As for being "owed" something by the creators of the title, wll, one could at least hope that the charcters that these "creators" ( and I use that word in the lossest sense possible) would have the merest modicum of respect for these charcters and the truly great creators who have worked on them before. Again, with Bendis, we're shit out of luck on that count, too. A good general rule of thumb is that when the writng is more about the writer's ego, self-indulgence and sensationalism than honestly trying to tell a good story with the characters, it's what's called bad writing. And that's something that Bendis knows all about.

[Pegasus]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Come on' date=' is it really that hard to accept that Spiderman and Wolverine will be on the Avengers.[/quote']

 

Honestly? Yes, yes it is. It's a question of personalities, of continuity. Spidey's been very well established as a solo hero, and even when teaming up he's much too independent a spirit to really fit in with the Avengers, a rank and file team. He works well in the team-ups short term. He could even work well on a band of misfits team like the Defenders. Wolverine...there's too much baggage to go into there, the least of which is his obligations with the X-Men. Both choices were made to add the most popular characters to the roster, not to add the best members to the team.

 

Change is not necessarily a bad thing. Poorly executed change for the sake of marketing is always a bad thing. Remember the Death of Superman? Remember how absolutely dumbed down Supes had to be for that storyline to occur? Remember how frustrating it was? Now, from everything I've heard, this Disassembled storyline is doing the same thing. Five words:

 

"Take the damn quiver off!"

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

As for being "owed" something by the creators of the title' date=' wll, one could at least hope that the charcters that these "creators" ( and I use that word in the lossest sense possible) would have the merest modicum of respect for these charcters and the truly great creators who have worked on them before. Again, with Bendis, we're shit out of luck on that count, too. A good general rule of thumb is that when the writng is more about the writer's ego, self-indulgence and sensationalism than honestly trying to tell a good story with the characters, it's what's called bad writing. And that's something that Bendis knows all about.[/quote']

 

In fairness, most of Bendis' writing at Marvel has been excellent. DAREDEVIL under Bendis has been better than the book has ever been other than when Frank Miller was at the helm, ALIAS was excellent and though I don't follow it, from the issues I saw, his ULTIMATE SPIDEY was well-scripted. Sadly, his AVENGERS is sucking big, pustulent zits so far.

 

I blame THE ULTIMATES and the overall mentality of the Ultimates line for the problem. The concept behind that entire line is "use the trademark characters but devoid of continuity or much/any of the spirit of the originals to tell big, kewl but ultimately empty stories." That mindset is a perfect match for Mark Millar's writing style, and it's been a big hit, and Bendis is just following it. Unfortunately, he and some others seem to have confused the Ultimate U version of Hank Pym with the mainstream one, and to have also forgotten that the Avengers actually for the most part have established histories and personalities.

[psm]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Unfortunately' date=' he and some others seem to have confused the Ultimate U version of Hank Pym with the mainstream one, and to have also forgotten that the Avengers actually for the most part have established histories and personalities.[/quote']

 

Yes and no. The problem with Hank Pym is that he has never been handled properly because he has been recanted before. Jim Shooter and Roger Stern continued the direction Roy Thomas had started. It should have ended with Pym realizing he wasn't built for the hero business and leaving the Avnegers. However, it didn't end there. He joined the WAvengers and continued to become a hero basically eliminating the continuity that came before. Hell, he even got back with the Wasp. It was just a slower transition but still inherently false (or at the very least no more correct than Bendis's version). Additionally, one of the themes running through the series is that the characters are acting in their previous incarnations.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Personally, if someone has an interesting new take on a character or team, even if it breaks continuity or changes established characterizations, I'm okay with it. I enjoy new things. It remains to be seen how BMB will do on New Avengers, the general consensus is that Disassembled blew. Okay, I didn't read it because I figured it would. New Avengers looks a lot more promising than Disassembled and I reserve judgement until I've experienced it.

[psm]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Change is not necessarily a bad thing. Poorly executed change for the sake of marketing is always a bad thing.[/i]

 

That I agree with. Hell, the clone saga, teen stark and the crossing are great examples of this. However, from everything I've read the decision by Bendis (and Millar, Quesada) was not a business one. It was according to them a creative decision that they felt would be really cool. If you believe it or not is up to you.

 

And how is Spiderman any less of a team player than Hulk, Dr. Strange or Silver Surfer. If those guys can function in a team then I don't really see a problem.

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

If you don't care about continuity or charcterization what did you think of the hack job that Byrne did when he "revamped" Spidey's origins? You may recall it was the story that caused Busiek to boycott Spidey until it was undone. That reworking, like Disassembled was done purely to placate the ego of the writer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against change either...it's part of life. But when a writer cynically and self-indulgently destroys established charcters and relationships that far superior writers had taken time and energy and love (and I betcha dollars to donuts that BMB does not love anything but his paycheck) to create then it is a problem. The other part of your statement was that if someone has "an interesting new take on the character..." That's the other problem...it's not interesting, it's contrived and shallow and manipluative and very badly structured. And if it's a new take on the charcters that Bendis wanted, then maybe he should have, instead, written a mini series like avengers Forever. In that venue he'd be free to do what he wanted...no matter how self indulgent. But he didn't do that. Instead he chose to inflict his cheap, self indulgent, sensationalism onto established and beloved charcters that had been lovingly wrtiiten by talents far more respectful and talented than he. The fact is, it's obvious that Bendis doesn't care about these charcters and that it's a cynical money grab/marketing ploy. At least if he was honest about it, that would be something.

[Hermit]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

If you don't care about continuity or charcterization what did you think of the hack job that Byrne did when he "revamped" Spidey's origins? You may recall it was the story that caused Busiek to boycott Spidey until it was undone.

 

Yeah. I took one look at that twist that Byrne put in and saw that it totally erradicated the reason for Spidey.

I set it down and gave up on the series myself.

 

Some comics just never 'were' in my opinion.

[Chuckg]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Some comics just never 'were' in my opinion.

 

On the CBR Rumbles message board, we refer to such a procedure as 'Hama'ing'. It is even a verb now, "to Hama".

 

(Named after our collective desire to forget Larry Hama's BATMAN run.)

[Hermit]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Of course, getting back on topic, will Avengers Disassembled be 'Hama'ed' into the mists of the happily forgotten or will it truly effect change?

 

Sometimes even the worst things CAN have good aspects.

 

The Clone saga was an abomination that I gladly Hama

Yet, there are ties between it and Spider-Girl, and Pete and MJ's futuristic daughter can be a delight.

Heroes Reborn was... ick. Just.. argh.

But few can say anything but praises for the first year of the Thunderbolts.

 

I do not want to see the Avengers treated so poorly as it seems they are being, and yet... fertilizer can lead to new growth.

 

Any bets on if the New Avengers will have some flowers bloom?

[Eyendasky80]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I found Byrne's Spider-Man do-over neither new or interesting. So I didn't buy more than one or two issues. It didn't seem to have too much of an effect on mainstream Spidey anyway.

Now BMB's do over of Spidey was interesting to me and I have a complete run.

 

So, I will wait and see. Is it so bad not to care about continuity? Why should I fret over stories written before I was born? It's a two edged sword, if that's appropriate, some authors lovingly weave decades of continuity into their stories and it makes them richer and more enjoyable. Like Geoff Johns, who I like very much. Some ignore it completely to the detriment of the story, others ignore it and it makes the story great.

 

When someone writes a bad story with all due respect to the continuity of the character, adds something worthless to said continuity, is every author thereafter supposed to work this worthless piece of continuity into every story they write? Are they supposed to go to any great lengths not to contradict it?

[Vigil]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I assume that in mentioning Geoff Johns you're mentioning his fine work on JSA, right? I glad you brought it up because it proves my point. Johns worked with existing charcters and existing continuity and built on it, not trampled on it like Byrne and Bendis do. And Johns, like Busiek, took the characters, warts and all, and realized their beauty. That's what good writers do. They work with charcters, even those whose continuity seems to be dull or a complete muddle and find interesting takes on them. Lazy writers do what you describe, that is, not caring about continuity. Comic writing isn't quite like anything else...you have to be adetective as well as a writer. Look at Busiek and how he managed to unmuddle huge pieces of Avengers continuity in Avengers Forever in a rather interesting, if long winded way. To me the mark of a good writer is to take ehwatver they're handed and spin it in an interesting way while operating within and mainatianing the pre-existing scope of the characters. Good writers challenge charcters. Bad writers kill them. And, given the body count, that would make BMB just about the worst ever.

[Eyendasky80]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

I never said continuity was a bad thing. I said that I like new and interesting things. I read JSA, I read Titans, I read Avengers Forever. I like continuity. I like what I like, continuity isn't a deal breaker either way (ignoring or adhering) for me.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

You can get the official Marvel rundown' date=' along with the apparent tone of the series, with its deep respect for the characters involved and the gravity of the events, here. Click on the "Dissassembled watch list" to get the "Who Gets it Next? scorecard.

 

Dang. Marvel is really doing some housecleaning on the Avengers.

 

Wonder why they aren't killing Tigra? She's an Avenger, after all, and she's definitely a second-stringer (at best), so if they're wiping out Avengers right and left she'd seem like a perfect choice.

[Metaphysician]

Re: AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED opinions

 

Most likely "diamond" out of this, IMHO, would be Spider-man finally getting over the "cannot be a team member" problem. Odds are, however, it won't last, and he'll be back to being a soloer eventually.