Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

[Greatwyrm]

In an issue of Digital HERO that I just got, they describe several alternate methods of resolving initiative and the speed chart. One that I really liked was the countdown method.

 

In short, you roll a number of dice equal to your SPD. The GM counts down from the highest number. When your's comes up, you get to go. Then, you subtract some number (probably 3 or 4), and that's when you get to go again.

 

Overall, I really like this. My big question is, how would I resolve things that specifically require counting segments (like Flash powers)? My first thought was to just count the normal damage on the Flash dice and you be blinded or whatever for that many actions. However, that means that characters with higher speed will shake it off sooner. That just doesn't really make sense for me. Maybe I could just make Flash affect you for the number of initative counts you rolled for effect, even if that bleeds over into the next round.

 

Please go easy on the semi-newbie. Other than that, your opinions are appreciated.

[Vondy]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Please go easy on the semi-newbie. Other than that, your opinions are appreciated.

Well...

 

/scratches head

 

You could treat each "count" as a segment for those purposes, I suppose.

 

Let me ask. Does this mean:

 

Roll X dice and use the total as your initiative score

 

or

 

Roll X dice and use the highest die as your intitiative score?

 

Another die rolling method might be:

 

Roll X dice, take the highest die, and additional sixes add 1. For instance, a speed 4 character rolls 6, 6, 4, and 2. The total would be 7.

 

Its an interesting idea. I'll have to ponder it, though I've been doing champions so long I run the Speed Chart for mass combats with multiple participants in my head.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

A couple of ideas come to mind, both somewhat clunky.

 

First - with existing speed chart, the Flash "acts" every segment - so could just call it a Speed 12, roll dice for it, and count off it's phases like any other SPD 12 character.

 

Second - also working on the "SPD 12" assumption - avg on 12d6 is 42, avg per die is 3.5...so tic off a "segment" of flash for every 3 or 4 "counts" that go by from the moment it took effect.

 

Problems - the "roll" creates a situation where the range is 1-72, and most people will have their actions clustered in the middle->bottom of the chart - like taking a 4 SPD character and making his segments 7, 9, 11, 12. Going back to the Flash issue - if you do a count-off for it - when will you start when a new Turn rolls around? At 72? If so, it will have most likely worn off before the victim acts again.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

As a side note, I think that due to the "stacking" of the actions that it can create, it would work much better in a "heroic" game where there's little SPD difference (ie SDP2 normals->SPD4 main characters) vs a "superheroic" game with SPDs ranging from SPD2 normals all the way up to superspeedsters.

[JmOz]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

What issue was that again?

 

To hijack for a minute:

 

One idea I have had is to use a deck of cards:

 

Each player has one deck, the Gm has 2 (mixed together)

 

You deal a number equal to the speed of each character

 

Then count down from Ace-King-Queen-Jack-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2

 

Any ties are broken by Dex. If a character draws 2 or more of a kind he gets his first action, then the count repeats itself

 

You can include jokers as extra abilities if you want (A free push or recovery along with going on an Ace)

 

When you are finished counting it has been a turn

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

OK, first off, a bit of history. In prior editions, Flash was 10 points per die and did blind for a number of phases, rather than segments, so high speeds shook it off faster. You could just divide the phases by 2 and make it that many "actions' to get back to that rule. I agree, however, that I prefer "blinded for a set period of time" so Speed is irrelevant.

 

Second, I would keep the speed chart. This is an example of the "ripple effect" when you change one element of the system. I assume you've already considered that, so we'll try not to let the thread derail into a discussion on the merits of the SPD system.

 

So, roll 1d6 per SPOD point then move every 4 thereafter should average about one action per SPD point. If you said 1 point of Flash = 2 ticks on the countdown, that should get pretty close if average Speed is 6, which is close enough for most Supers games (2 points Flash = 1 action). If average Speed is about 3 (most Heroic games), count 1 Flash BOD = 1 tick (average action = 4 Flash).

 

You'll run into a problem when the turn bleeds over, though - a low SPD guy will count off a lot of ticks before getting an action.

 

hmmm...what about Flash points divided by 12 x character Speed equals number of actions blinded? This should be about right - that's how many actions Flash would last using the speed chart. It's a bit "mathy", but it should work out to a reasonable result.

 

To test whether you're getting a reaosnable result, every 12 Flash should cost a character, on average, a number of actions equal to his Speed (hence the above formula).

 

[Looks down; sees a few responses] I think Von D-Man's approach will wear the flash off way to fast. Supreme Serpent has some good comments, but I think the Flash will wear off to fast between turns, as he notes.

 

Unfortunately, the average speed of characters would indicate the number of tics that should go by for each segment, which makes any solution that works for, say 6 SPD too slow for, say, a 3 SPD, other than the very math-oriented approach above.

 

You're going to find a tradeoff between simulating the duration of Flash under the speed chart and siomplicity of the system. The ultimate answer may be to count every Flash BOD as 2 ticks on the time chart, see how that works, and adjust then number of ticks up or down for the comparable impact of Flash on the targets (ie playtest your modification to the system).

[Greatwyrm]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Thanks everyone. I'm thinking this may be a little tougher than I'd like for a bunch of new players, myself included. If I come up with any more brilliant ideas, I'll let you know.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

I got rid of the Speed Chart years ago. New players to Champions in my games have never heard of it, and have no problems with the following initiative system.

 

1) Buy SPD as normal.

 

2) In combat, EVERYONE gets an initiative roll. A single d6... add it to your SPD for a total.

 

3) Highest number goes first. Say a 5 SPD rolled a 6 totalling 11... so I start counting... "Who goes on 14? 13? 12? 11? Oooh, OOOh me!

 

4) Actions are as normal, and continue counting down. 10? 9? Notice that this means that whether you are SPD 12 or SPD 2... EVERYONE gets an action EVERY ROUND! This is important... it keeps folks from sitting around "waiting for their phase" and rounds tend to fly by.

 

5) Now... to show that SPD (which is roughly a character's reaction time in real world terms) is very important... the higher the initiative number rolled, the more possible actions you can get.

 

Basically... at 11+ initiative (Speed plus die roll), you get two actions in a round. If someone had a high enough SPD to roll a 17+, they would get THREE actions in a round (I have one Speedster with a 12 SPD who would then get THREE ACTIONS about 1/3 of the time on average, when he rolled a 5 or 6.)

 

These second actions (or the rare third) happen AFTER ALL FIRST ACTIONS are completed. This means that yes, the two SPD thug will get to fire before the Speedster gets their second action... but this is fine. Even if the Speester was worried about getting hit, he has extra actions and can abort them to dodge, whatever. This really more accurately reflects the classic Spider-Man bit of dodging around a room of thugs, they are getting actions to shoot, but he is whacking a couple, dodging, whacking a couple more, dodging... and still takes out the room in a maybe four or five rounds.

 

 

There are considerations. Flash still costs 10 pts. per d6 in my game, and the flash affects a certain number of "actions." Flashed for 3, but have a Six Speed and initiatize with a 12... your first action - flashed, second action - flashed... next round initiatize again... first action - flashed... if you have a second action, you can see again. This works fine and is well balanced. 5 pts. per d6 would be heinous in this system.

 

Four rounds is the equivalent of a Turn (12 Segments) on the SPD chart... for purposes of calculating Regen or recovering from drains, etc.

 

There is NO post-Segment 12, so nobody gets auto-Recoveries. You have to spend an action to recover. This really speeds up combat.

 

The fact that every character gets at least one action a round... you'll find that players will not try to "max out" their actions. They will be more relaxed and say... "This round, I go defensive and take a good look around. I want to have a clear view of the battle field" and stuff like that. They will blow actions right and left (well, at least my players do) to yell orders, regroup, etc. (Talking takes time by my rules. You can certainly act WHILE talking, but if you just stand their and "soliloquize" well... that is an action.) This allows a more free flowing, and in my mind, more dramatic and "role played" combat, rather than rule played war gaming.

 

It allows low SPD characters to be competitive with high SPD characters. High SPD is great, but it is not totally dominating as it is with the SPD chart.

 

There is no confusion about segments and phases. Just "Each round how many actions do I get. First actions done? Ok, Second Actions?"

 

 

I'm sure there are other nuances I'm missing... changing something like this has subtle effects throughout, since it is almost a core rule... but this is the single best change I ever made in running Hero.

It sped things up, made combat more colorful, dramatic and variable (the fact that based on die rolls, occassionaly slower Speeds will go before faster Speeds.

 

It makes Initiative rolls very exciting. Players get 11s or 12s or 14s (I have some six-eight speed charaters) and they cheer!).

 

Players don't sit around waiting, frustrated while high SPD characters dominate.

 

For new players the initiative concept is easier to grasp than the chart. (Highes number goes first... roll high enough, get a second action. That simple, really.)

 

I highly recommend trying this. It works extremely well. Been using it for seven years at least, now.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

A simple thing to do for heroic games is to simply state that speed goes from 1 to 4 and remake the speed chart with 4 segments of 3 seconds each. Would work fine in 4th edition, although I THINK 5th edition made some changes that my idea would break.

[lemming]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

In an issue of Digital HERO that I just got, they describe several alternate methods of resolving initiative and the speed chart. One that I really liked was the countdown method.

 

In short, you roll a number of dice equal to your SPD. The GM counts down from the highest number. When your's comes up, you get to go. Then, you subtract some number (probably 3 or 4), and that's when you get to go again.

 

Overall, I really like this. My big question is, how would I resolve things that specifically require counting segments (like Flash powers)? My first thought was to just count the normal damage on the Flash dice and you be blinded or whatever for that many actions. However, that means that characters with higher speed will shake it off sooner. That just doesn't really make sense for me. Maybe I could just make Flash affect you for the number of initative counts you rolled for effect, even if that bleeds over into the next round.

 

Please go easy on the semi-newbie. Other than that, your opinions are appreciated.

Actually, Flash used to blind you for # of phases, but the number of initiate counts may work as well.

[lemming]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Its an interesting idea. I'll have to ponder it, though I've been doing champions so long I run the Speed Chart for mass combats with multiple participants in my head.

I'm very glad the Speed Chart hasn't changed since early on (if at all, not sure if SPD 1 went on a different segment). I've had it memorized ever since I started GMing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

I1) Buy SPD as normal.

 

2) In combat, EVERYONE gets an initiative roll. A single d6... add it to your SPD for a total.

 

3) Highest number goes first. Say a 5 SPD rolled a 6 totalling 11... so I start counting... "Who goes on 14? 13? 12? 11? Oooh, OOOh me!

 

4) Actions are as normal, and continue counting down. 10? 9? Notice that this means that whether you are SPD 12 or SPD 2... EVERYONE gets an action EVERY ROUND! This is important... it keeps folks from sitting around "waiting for their phase" and rounds tend to fly by.

 

5) Now... to show that SPD (which is roughly a character's reaction time in real world terms) is very important... the higher the initiative number rolled, the more possible actions you can get.

 

Basically... at 11+ initiative (Speed plus die roll), you get two actions in a round. If someone had a high enough SPD to roll a 17+, they would get THREE actions in a round (I have one Speedster with a 12 SPD who would then get THREE ACTIONS about 1/3 of the time on average, when he rolled a 5 or 6.)

 

Obviously it's working for you, but I'm surprised you have a lot of people spending lots of points on Speed. Your 12 Speed speedster gets 2 1/3 actions, on average. A guy with 2 SPD will get 1 1/2 on average, and has 100 more points to spend somewhere else. I'm not convinced that having 55% more actions is simialr in value to, say, +20/+20 hardened PD and ED and +8d6 at half END to my primary attack.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Obviously it's working for you' date=' but I'm surprised you have a lot of people spending lots of points on Speed. Your 12 Speed speedster gets 2 1/3 actions, on average. A guy with 2 SPD will get 1 1/2 on average, and has 100 more points to spend somewhere else. I'm not convinced that having 55% more actions is simialr in value to, say, +20/+20 hardened PD and ED and +8d6 at half END to my primary attack.[/quote']

 

Not really following you here. A 2 SPD will never have more than one action per turn. With a d6, they can never roll higher than an 8, so never get two actions. You have to roll 11 or higher to get that second action. You have to have at least a 5 SPD to get a chance at a second action. A 12 SPD is guaranteed a second action and gets a 33% chance at a 3rd. That is huge... and it plays out that way in the game.

 

Example: Speedster has three actions. Comes in fast, does some smack down... if enemy still up and takes a shot, likely won't be hit, but if worried, aborts second action to dodge or block, then uses third action to smack down again! High enough SPD and enough actions, and it can be devastating... while at the same time, you don't HAVE to have a high SPD character to be effective, as slower speeds still get at least one action every round.

 

To me, it makes 10 points for 1 SPD about right. On the SPD chart system, two characters who were both built exactly the same for the first 340 points, but Char A spends the last ten points to go to a 6 SPD, and Char B spends it on, oh say just about anything else in the system. In a straight up combat between the two, Char A wins 90 percent of the time because of that extra action that always comes at the same point. It was just broken. With my system, that same 10 points buys some increase CHANCE of more actions, but not guaranteed. It is a benefit, but not a broken one.

 

I've had doubters come to my games. They've left believers. All I can say is, give it a try. Worse can happen is it doesn't work for you, and you go back to your old way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Not really following you here.

 

No problem - I'm obviously missing something since your games sound like they're working.

 

A 2 SPD will never have more than one action per turn. With a d6, they can never roll higher than an 8, so never get two actions. You have to roll 11 or higher to get that second action. You have to have at least a 5 SPD to get a chance at a second action. A 12 SPD is guaranteed a second action and gets a 33% chance at a 3rd. That is huge... and it plays out that way in the game.

 

Example: Speedster has three actions. Comes in fast, does some smack down... if enemy still up and takes a shot, likely won't be hit, but if worried, aborts second action to dodge or block, then uses third action to smack down again!

 

OK, now let's put the example into action. Each character has the same OCV, DCV, 25 Defenses and 12d6 Attack, and a 23 Speed (yeah, it requires some sell-back). Speedster puts 100 points in Speed, so he now has a 12. Tough Guy puts his 100 into +20/+20 Hardened PD and ED (50) and +8d6 attack at 1/2 END.

 

Speedster moves first. He attacks Tough Guy, wuth an 11- to hit (they have the same OCV and DCV, remember?). He hits, rolls his 12d6 and gets a good roll - 54 STUN (average of 4.5 per die)! Tough Guy takes 9 STUN after his 45 defenses. An average strike won't do any STUN.

 

Tough Guy moves next (you indicated second attacks come only at the end of the first go round). He fires off his 20d6 EB. He uses 4d6 to add 4 to his OCV, so even if Speedster dodges, he hits on a 12- (10- if it's a martial dodge). He hits, doing 16d6. Even a below average roll (48 points; average 3 per die) inflicts 23 points through Speedster. An average roll inflicts 29.

 

Speedy aborted to dodge (no block - it's an EB) so gets no second action. He has a 1 in 3 chance of a third, so maybe gets another extremely lucky shot and inflcits 9 more STUN.

 

End of phase: Speedy's down 23 STUN, Tough Guy down 18. Tough Guy had a low average phase, where Speedy got lucky with two huge damage rolls and a 1 in 3 shot at a third action. Speedy's hurt worse than Tough Guy.

 

On an average phase, Speedy cah hit and hit and hit, bouncing off Tough Guy's huge DEF, and Tough Guy need only land one solid blow to end the battle.

 

High enough SPD and enough actions' date=' and it can be devastating... while at the same time, you don't HAVE to have a high SPD character to be effective, as slower speeds still get at least one action every round.[/quote']

 

2 SPD vs 12 is a pretty huge discrepancy. But take a 4 SPD vs an 8 SPD. Under the normal rules, 8 SPD moves twice as often. Under yours, 5-10 always gets 1 action, and 9 - 14 usually gets 2 (2/3 of the time). You haven't narrowed the gap all that much as far as extra actions goes, just manipulated them differently.

 

But it requires 5 SPD to have any chance of an extra action, so the discrepancy between Joe Thug and Joe Super has been seriously reduced.

 

To me' date=' it makes 10 points for 1 SPD about right. On the SPD chart system, two characters who were both built exactly the same for the first 340 points, but Char A spends the last ten points to go to a 6 SPD, and Char B spends it on, oh say just about anything else in the system. In a straight up combat between the two, Char A wins 90 percent of the time because of that extra action that always comes at the same point.[/quote']

 

Not what I see in my games. Mind you, a lot comes up to not allowing points to be spent with full discretion. You likely won't allow T0ough Guy to exceed campaign norms in DEF or attack by that level. But by the same token, trading off from a 6 SPD to a 5 to boost defenses by 5 each, or boost attacks by 2d6, would also influence the results of combat.

 

If we assume a 50% chance to connect, 25 DEF each and 10d6 or 12d6 attacks to offset that 5 or 6 speed, the guy with 12d6 averages 42 per hit (27 after defenses), so 27 x 50% chance to hit x 5 SPD = 67.5 STUN inflicted per tunr. 35 average does 10 STUN per hit x 6 x 50% = 30 inflcted per turn. Who will win?

 

Now, 6 SPD can ensure he's sometimes tougher to hit, but how much? And to do so, he sacrifices some attacks. Trebuchet's character Z'lf is an excellent example of a high SPD character who's not devestating because the character pays for that above-norm SPD with below-norm damage potential. If you do 9d6, 10 phases per turn, the guy with 40 DEF and 3 SPD will still be standing after an extended combat.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

All I can say is...

 

1) The person who tries to argue why a power should be purchased based on mathematical efficiency doesn't game with us. These are characters, not math problems.

 

2) I did the SPD things to actually reduce the SPD discrepancy... as you said 8 SPD vs. 4 SPD in old rules... that is 40 points (not much) to guarantee twice as many actions. That's nuts.

 

3) The Hero System can always be min-maxed if you put all your powers in Damage and Defenses. Defenses are way too cheap in this game. Tough Guy will almost always win in your scenario... and aside from the cost, I have no problem with that. The ability to suck up pain/damage is THE determining factor in any fight. The person willing to take the most pain wins.

 

4) If SPD guy built himself with such ease of being hit, well... that wouldn't be too concept. He'd likely have +5 with all DCV, and or other things that would be supported by having a high SPD. Give him a few HtH levels or Missile Deflection... the fight would go... Speed hits, Tough Guy swings, Speed guy aborts to dodge/block/missile deflect... continue. Tough Guy almost never lands a blow... eventually falls to SPD guy.

 

Essentially, if you spend a lot of points on SPD, it's likely you have also created a character who can take advantage of those extra actions... unless your concept is "fast, but not skilled" in which case, you likely don't expect to win that fight.

 

In fact, I just realized that a number of my house rules have in fact tried to eliminate some of the "efficiencies" in Hero... those areas that, like any system has, push people to those powers/combinations, because they are simply "better" for the cost. I've done it with Armor Piercing, Speed, HKAs...

 

... hadn't thought of that before.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

1) The person who tries to argue why a power should be purchased based on mathematical efficiency doesn't game with us. These are characters' date=' not math problems.[/quote']

 

True as far as it goes, but no one likes playing the weak link. How many players build Comeliness Lad/Lass, whose chief role is to be useless in all combat, and be used as a hostage every other game?

 

As well, the same logic can be used as a case for not changing the price of speed. To me, the primary reason for seeking out better mathematical balance is to prevent one character concept enjoying an advantage over other concepts. In my games, "extra actions" has not translated into "overwhelming character".

 

If any ability is overpriced relative to other abilities, it will fall from favour. Someone on another thread recently mentioned how Any Area has far fewer hexes than any other AE advantage and, as a result, is virtually never seen.

 

2) I did the SPD things to actually reduce the SPD discrepancy... as you said 8 SPD vs. 4 SPD in old rules... that is 40 points (not much) to guarantee twice as many actions. That's nuts.

 

Versus 60 points in your system (going from 4 SPD - no way to roll an 11 - to 10 SPD - minimum roll of 11]. So it costs 50% more to guarantee you will have twice as many actions, and also guarantee you will act first (so I guess "act first" becomes a +1/2 advantage).

 

3) The Hero System can always be min-maxed if you put all your powers in Damage and Defenses. Defenses are way too cheap in this game. Tough Guy will almost always win in your scenario... and aside from the cost' date=' I have no problem with that. The ability to suck up pain/damage is THE determining factor in any fight. The person willing to take the most pain wins.[/quote']

 

If defenses are way too cheap, and higher damage is way too cheap, both in comparison to Speed/extra actions, how does the game improve by making extra actions more expensive? I respect that you've said this change has worked well in your campaigns. Making no changes has worked well in the ones I play in.

 

4) If SPD guy built himself with such ease of being hit' date=' well... that wouldn't be too concept. He'd likely have +5 with all DCV, and or other things that would be supported by having a high SPD. Give him a few HtH levels or Missile Deflection... the fight would go... Speed hits, Tough Guy swings, Speed guy aborts to dodge/block/missile deflect... continue. Tough Guy almost never lands a blow... eventually falls to SPD guy.[/quote']

 

For the same points Speed Guy spends for +5 with all DCV, Tough Guy can buy +5 OCV with his EB, another 2d6 of Energy Blast and an extra 10 END to run tose 2 dice over a turn. The abilioty to spend points in different areas is the primary reason for assuming "all other things being equal".

 

In fact' date=' I just realized that a number of my house rules have in fact tried to eliminate some of the "efficiencies" in Hero... those areas that, like any system has, push people to those powers/combinations, because they are simply "better" for the cost. I've done it with Armor Piercing, Speed, HKAs...[/quote']

 

Armor Piercing surprises me. I don't see it all that often. 12d6 EB vs 20 DEF averages 22 STUN. 8d6 AP vs 20 DEF averages 8 [OOPS! 18 - still less than a normal blast...], even assuming their DEF isn't hardened. Now, if average defenses are high, and not commonly hardened, AP becomes much more potent. 12d6 vs 30 DEF averages 12, where 8d6 AB vs 30 DEF averages 13. The utility of AP varies depending on the attack:defense ratio, but my experience is that AP is a poor choice in most Supers games (though still seen in many multipowers).

 

In heroic games, AP is really only useful if your goal is to kill. For example, if a characetr has 12 DEF, 6 rDef, and you can choose between 2d6 KA or 1d6+1 KA AP, the former averages 1 BOD, 6.69 STUN, and the latter averages 1.5 BOD, 6.02 STUN [in both cases, KA average stun x of 2.67 used]

 

Using the HL chart, on a head hit, the normal atack averages 2 BOD, 23 STUN and maxes out at 12 BOD, 48 STUN, while the AP averages 3 BOD, 16.5 STUN and maxes out at 8 BOD, 29 STUN. [MAX is the same with rolled or HL multiple]

[JMHammer]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Hugh Neilson said:

12d6 EB vs 20 DEF averages 22 STUN. 8d6 AP vs 20 DEF averages 8, even assuming their DEF isn't hardened.

In the case of the 8d6 AP vs 20 Def, the average damage would be 18. [8x3.5=28, 20/2=10, 28-10=18] Your point remains valid.

 

Best wishes,

John H

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

True as far as it goes, but no one likes playing the weak link. How many players build Comeliness Lad/Lass, whose chief role is to be useless in all combat, and be used as a hostage every other game?

 

As well, the same logic can be used as a case for not changing the price of speed. To me, the primary reason for seeking out better mathematical balance is to prevent one character concept enjoying an advantage over other concepts. In my games, "extra actions" has not translated into "overwhelming character".

 

If any ability is overpriced relative to other abilities, it will fall from favour. Someone on another thread recently mentioned how Any Area has far fewer hexes than any other AE advantage and, as a result, is virtually never seen.

 

 

 

Versus 60 points in your system (going from 4 SPD - no way to roll an 11 - to 10 SPD - minimum roll of 11]. So it costs 50% more to guarantee you will have twice as many actions, and also guarantee you will act first (so I guess "act first" becomes a +1/2 advantage).

 

 

 

If defenses are way too cheap, and higher damage is way too cheap, both in comparison to Speed/extra actions, how does the game improve by making extra actions more expensive? I respect that you've said this change has worked well in your campaigns. Making no changes has worked well in the ones I play in.

 

 

 

For the same points Speed Guy spends for +5 with all DCV, Tough Guy can buy +5 OCV with his EB, another 2d6 of Energy Blast and an extra 10 END to run tose 2 dice over a turn. The abilioty to spend points in different areas is the primary reason for assuming "all other things being equal".

 

 

 

Armor Piercing surprises me. I don't see it all that often. 12d6 EB vs 20 DEF averages 22 STUN. 8d6 AP vs 20 DEF averages 8 [OOPS! 18 - still less than a normal blast...], even assuming their DEF isn't hardened. Now, if average defenses are high, and not commonly hardened, AP becomes much more potent. 12d6 vs 30 DEF averages 12, where 8d6 AB vs 30 DEF averages 13. The utility of AP varies depending on the attack:defense ratio, but my experience is that AP is a poor choice in most Supers games (though still seen in many multipowers).

 

In heroic games, AP is really only useful if your goal is to kill. For example, if a characetr has 12 DEF, 6 rDef, and you can choose between 2d6 KA or 1d6+1 KA AP, the former averages 1 BOD, 6.69 STUN, and the latter averages 1.5 BOD, 6.02 STUN [in both cases, KA average stun x of 2.67 used]

 

Using the HL chart, on a head hit, the normal atack averages 2 BOD, 23 STUN and maxes out at 12 BOD, 48 STUN, while the AP averages 3 BOD, 16.5 STUN and maxes out at 8 BOD, 29 STUN. [MAX is the same with rolled or HL multiple]

 

My AP rule is "-1 non-Hardened Defense for every Body rolled." So, on Normal Attacks, it is much less than cutting in half. 10d6 AP EB will, on average subtract 10 from targets defense. Much less efficient than the current, yes I know... but the current AP rules dont' fit the Hero Model. They provide this arbitrary 1/2 effect... rather than an effect tied to number of d6 or active points. (A 2d6 AP attack cutts 100 ED in half, just as a 20d6 AP attack does. Stick a 1d6AP die onto a 11d6 EB... get defenses cut in half for practically nothing. If there is some rule that says you can't do that, the fact that they have to make up an addendum rule shows that it violates the basic 1 for 5 rule that should be as inviolate as possible in Hero.)

 

Now, against lower defenses or like with AP bullets against light armor... this becomes very deadly. 6rPD vs 2d6 AP RKA... on average seven body rolled, so on average the rPD is totally eliminated, meaning the 2d6 rPD does full damage to the target. Very deadly, and this feels very "right" to me.

 

Low level defenses are eliminated by AP... but high level defenses (35-45) are often unaffected. AP becomes used to "kill" lightly armored or low defense characters.

 

 

Oh... and yes, while 60 points "guarantees" a second action, you don't have to be at equal SPDs for things to be somewhat balanced. That 4 SPD can buy one more point for 10 points and now have a chance of equaling the other guy at least.

 

Yes... my system does benefit lower speeds, but that was the point. To end the SPD wars, and make combat flow faster. A player doesn't have to spend 100 points on SPD, but sometimes it fits the concept. Speedster... can do more things in the same amount of time as others. A round is 2-3 seconds. A normal (in game rules) can do one action (draw gun, pull trigger) but the SPD guy can do 3 things in the same 2-4 seconds. Dodge bullet (after holding until slow guy fired) grab gun away, punch hard. That fits concept, whether it is "efficient" or not isn't the issue.

 

Again, you can mathematically analyze it all day, and it won't tell you a thing about how it works as a game mechanic. It works. It invests the players in every "round" as they all get an action... there is the random factor, when a high SPD character rolls low and a low SPD character rolls high and actually gets to go first... it doesn't allow for post-seg 12 recoveries and the like, speeding up combat... and best of all, it does benefit slower SPDs just slightly. Actually, your argument that putting into Def and Attack works in my favor. I'd RATHER players put into Def an Attack (if their concepts fit that model) than to have everyone ramping up their SPD. Yet... many do... because the enjoyment factor of going twice... even if those actions are mathematically inefficient... certainly seems WAY fun to my players.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

My AP rule is "-1 non-Hardened Defense for every Body rolled." So' date=' on Normal Attacks, it is much less than cutting in half.[/quote']

SNIP SNIP

Low level defenses are eliminated by AP... but high level defenses (35-45) are often unaffected. AP becomes used to "kill" lightly armored or low defense characters.

 

So basically, your version of AP is useful only if you're bloodthirsty. 8d6 averages 28 STUN, add 8 for average BOD = 36 STUN effectively. 12d6 would have averaged 42 STUN, so it will consistently inflict better STUN damage even against opponents without hardened defenses.

 

Again' date=' you can mathematically analyze it all day, and it won't tell you a thing about how it works as a game mechanic. It works.[/quote']

 

For you, it seems to. I won't be changing my game any time soon because I still see this as hugely devaluing Speed. Might as well take it all the way and go the V&V route - roll 1d10, add DEX, move at that number and every 15 thereafter. Probably have to bump up the cost of DEX and/or make a new SPD stat to boost rolls for this purpose only.

 

It invests the players in every "round" as they all get an action

 

Everyone gets at least one action per turn without changing the system. And my low SPD character knows that, once he's taken his action, he can go to sleep for the rest of the round - at least a 4 SPD super (almost never seen one lower) knows he'll get to act again in Ph 8.

 

And how is a 4 SPD vs 10 SPD in your game any different from a 4 SPD vs 8 SPD in mine? In both cases, the faster combatant gets twice as many actions as the slower one. 20 points is the only difference.

 

A 5 SPD vs 8 in your mechanic is 1 1/6 actions vs 1 2/3 actions, so the difference between 7 SPD and 10 SPD in the standard method.

 

it doesn't allow for post-seg 12 recoveries and the like' date=' speeding up combat[/quote']

 

Devaluing REC as a stat, and making those low cost END batteries seem a really good buy. Again, a change, but not necessarily good or bad, just different.

 

Actually' date=' your argument that putting into Def and Attack works in my favor. I'd RATHER players put into Def an Attack (if their concepts fit that model) than to have everyone ramping up their SPD.[/quote']

 

Here seems to be where our experiences differ. I see a lot of SPD 5 or SPD 6 characters, and the occasional 4 or 7. Outside those ranges is rare in the extreme, and generally unusual NPC territory.

 

If DEF and Attack were equally valuable with SPD, as I perceive them to be now, it would work. My perception is that your system inordinately devalues speed.

 

BTW, you defend your grup as not crunching the math to take the most effective stats, but you also state that you made this change because everyone was ramping up their Speeds. Which is it - they play to concept, or they were ramping up SPD? There's some stat ramping in Supers by default, of course - DEX tends to be a minimum 18 and under 23 is rare. CON virtually never falls below 23. A "nromal human with energy powers" is pretty much unheard of. Similarly, if you're looking for a lot of SPD 2-3 Supers, good luck!

 

Try putting your characters up against opposition that sells their Speed back to 1 (really, if you aren't going at least to 5, why would you have higher than a 1 anyway - going first is nice, but hardly worth 10 points a shot, especially since only the slow opponents will be one upped anyway) and uses the extra points to ramp up OCV, damage dice and defenses. Maybe one guy uses the approach I outlined above, another uses some of the points to boost OCV by 5 (and takes 2d6 less in his attacks), and another only puts 25 points in defenses and uses the remaining 25 for +5 DCV.

 

I suspect the Turtle Gang will be very successful, provided they play to their strengths.

 

Actually, if you want a real game breaker for either approach, compare a 1 SPD and 11 SPD character, identical in all other respects. Except SPD 1 uses his 100 extra points on Duplication and has 64 exact duplicates (never recombine). He gets 64 actions per turn There's lots of ways to brek the game if that's your objective.

[Pegasus]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

I got rid of the Speed Chart years ago. New players to Champions in my games have never heard of it' date=' and have no problems with the following initiative system...[/quote']

 

I like this a lot. I'd love to give it a try some time. I might just umm, borrow the idea for the game I'm writing...

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

I'd like to step back and make 2 points.

 

1. The speed chart actually helps play move because it is consistent. There is no refiguring of initiative on any regular basis. Everyone know what to expect, and learns that they go after character X. One criticism: too predictable. Answer: Hold your action or Hurry. Hurry will essentially allow people to trump initiative order, introducing a random element, if that player wants it. Further, he can just spend a few points to buy off the OCV penalty from Hurry to ensure he gets that boost without much trouble. Now initiative is randomized, if you want it, and true of all random systems is they normalize over time. The speed chart is already normalized, whiy not use the system to introduce variation on a controlled basis rather than random every time?

 

2. Damage/Defense. Yes, it is cheaper, so just set power caps. Say, max 75 active points in attack and 30 active on defense. Does it matter that they are different point values? No, it's about setting the tone of a campaign. Since defenses are cheaper, it is easier to have good defenses and still have some flexibility in character design. YMMV, but using this technique, plus GM oversight, I find my characters balanced and fun to play.

---------

I'm all for tweaking the rules and making them do what you want. Especially if its to set the tone you feel is necessary for the game. However, I often see optional rules introduced to handle something the system already handles if a different perspective is taken. The advantage of not changing the rules is that players can rely more on what they see in published materials, your campaign stays more balanced with published materials, and there is a consistent message. If the rule needs to be changed, change it, I would just hope that all options have been considered first.

 

We tried the deadlands initiative card system, as discussed elsewhere on the boards, in my current DC campaign. After 1 session the players voted to ditch it - Deadlands players playing HERO for the first time, and players that loved that system - because of the inconsistencies it introduced. We certainly use the HERO maneuvers to their full extent and there are some touchy interplays if initiative is wonky.

 

One final point about random initiatives - bunching. The speed chart avoids bunching by giving players actions at regular intervals. If a random system does not result in a distributed action order (doubtful), you end up with players sitting arounnd for half an hour before they can act. How can that be fun? Sure, when they get to act they get a flurry of activity, but I would prefer to keep them engaged throughout. So many exciting things can happen in combat that may not involve your character that its unfortunate to miss them because you are disengaged from the combat due to inititive issues.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

One final point about random initiatives - bunching. The speed chart avoids bunching by giving players actions at regular intervals. If a random system does not result in a distributed action order (doubtful), you end up with players sitting arounnd for half an hour before they can act. How can that be fun? Sure, when they get to act they get a flurry of activity, but I would prefer to keep them engaged throughout. So many exciting things can happen in combat that may not involve your character that its unfortunate to miss them because you are disengaged from the combat due to inititive issues.

 

This was always my exact experience with the SPD chart. NOt bunching, as much as folks sitting around totally disengaged by what was happening, waiting for the action to take place. They bought SPD up not to be effective, but just to be "in the game." One 7 SPD character just had the stage all the time, compared to the five SPD guys. You beat up the Tough Guy, as posted above, by boring his player to death because he never got to do anything.

 

Oh... and to Hugh's question above... yes, AP in my games is deadly. You put it on an attack, especially a KA, if what you are looking for is to destroy objects or really do body to people. As you noted, as you go above 12d6, you begin to inch up a bit in Stun, but that's not what it's for. Essentially, AP is designed to do exactly that... pierce armor... and be careful what you shoot!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

One 7 SPD character just had the stage all the time' date=' compared to the five SPD guys.[/quote']

 

40% more actions doesn't seem like "all the time" to me, but again it's personal preference and experience, not anything that can be objectively measured.

 

I've had 5 SPD and 7 SPD characters in the same game. In a game with a 4 SPD (DEX 20), 2 5's (DEX 23 and 26), 2 6's (DEX 23 and 26) and a 7 (DEX 30), it goes like this (calling tem 7, 6.3, 6.6, 5.3, 5.6, and 4 for simplicity)

 

Ph 12 - 7, 6.6 & 5.6, 6.3 & 5.3; 4

Ph 1 - no one

Ph 2 - 7,6.6, 6.3

Ph 3 - 5.6, 5.3, 4

Ph 4 - 7, 6.6, 6.3

Ph 5 - 5.6, 5.3

Ph 6 - 7, 6.6, 6.3, 4

Ph 7 - 7

Ph 8 - 6.6 & 5.6, 6.3 & 5.3

Ph 9 - 7,4

Ph 10 - 6.6 & 5.6, 6.3 & 5.3

Ph 11 - 7

Ph 12 - 7, 6.6 & 5.6, 6.3 & 5.3; 4

 

Longest waits:

 

4 - 10 other actions between ph 9 and 12

5 - 7 other actions between ph 5 and 8 (assumiong rolloff consistent)

6 - 5 (fairly common; ph 10 to 12; ph 12 to 2; ph 2 to 4 ph 8 to 10)

7 - 5 (ph 12 to 2; ph 9 to 11)

 

Compare to your system. If everyone rolls a 6, 4 moves once at the end of the round's first action series, then everyone else moves again, and once more in the first action sequence. Longest wait - 10. Comes up less often, but 4 still gets to hang about at least 5 other actions every time (or go early and wait even longer). I'm not seeing a substantial improvement in lead time, certainly not enough to change the whole time system and re-work what a half phase, a full phase and a turn is with only 1 or 2 actions in a "round".

 

Thinking on it, though, where your system balances out with some benefits to high SPD is in the END department. Whenever I build a high SPD character, I'm always concerned about ability to last. By eliminating PS 12, you reduce that concern a bit - we're all going to run out of END (unless we want to be 0 DCV), so the faster I can blow al my END into harming my opponent, the better.

 

Doing a bit of math, I also note that we can compare a 4 SPD and a 7 SPD (the extremes of normalcy in my experience). In your system, 7 SPD has 50% more actions ( a 50% chance of two actions where 4 SPD has none). In the usual structure, he has 75% more actions.

 

5 vs 6? 14.2% more actions (7/6 vs 8/6) compared to 20% more. The big reduction is only at the extremes (12 SPD vs 2, for example - 2 1/3 actions vs 1 is a 133% increase vs a 600% increase uinder the base rules). In the realm of typical SPD, the reduction isn't as marked.

 

Oh... and to Hugh's question above... yes' date=' AP in my games is deadly. You put it on an attack, especially a KA, if what you are looking for is to destroy objects or really do body to people.[/quote']

 

Thinking on it, I'd definitely put an 8d6 AP blast in my 60 AP multipower. It will be extremely useful in the event I am entangled or need to get through a Force Wall. Of course, once that becomes an accepted game standard, I doubt I'll ever see an Entangle or a Force Wall again, since this revised AP rule will make them ineffective. Still, 6 points for "entangle insurance" seems pretty cheap, and I can always bring the cost down with limitations (does no Stun, no knockback, maybe no range if I'm only worried about entangles amnd force bubbles...) if I really want to milk the system.

 

[This kind of ripple effect is what always scares me about fiddling with the system - what looks to be a minor change has impact on areas not considered.]

[RDU Neil]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

[This kind of ripple effect is what always scares me about fiddling with the system - what looks to be a minor change has impact on areas not considered.]

 

Absolutely. I'm always very concerned about "ripple" effects, and I always introduce a change with the caveate "If this proves to be degenerate, we stop using it." To my experience, the changes I've talked about, the ones that have lasted, have not proved to be bah-roken.

 

Also, it is probably my players. I can't imagine any of them coming to me with the "I put AP into my MP to be my entangle hoser!" I don't feel any of us "think" that way. I totally see your point... and there are players who have an AP slot in the multi-power... but it has always come about as "character concept." "I'm a TK guy, and I focus my energy into a tight spear to punch through armor!" has been the reason given, and it makes perfect sense.

 

(Again... this player has an AVLD Killing Attack, which I've always allowed to do body... and he rarely uses it, despite the deadly efficiency it could generate. It's his "desperation" power, or the one he used to stop Dr. D's heart after the old guy was defeated, in order to make it look like he died of a heart attack. Brilliant role playing and moral quandry issues came out of this power... not abuses or combat munchkining. Though, obviously, if it turned out to be abuse, other players taking it and using it poorly, I'd have to re-evaluate the decision. All systems and changes should be dynamic and flexible, as new information comes all the time. Again... this is why I like Hero.)

[etherio]

Re: Alternatives to the Speed Chart from DH

 

Our group uses an alternate SPD system that (I think) works quite well.

 

I've always been a bit irritated at the plodding, predictable nature of the SPD chart. Players tend to disengage from the game in segments in which they have no chance to act. I love HERO, but sometimes a little randomness is just fun.

 

I also found that if a campaign has a typical SPD stat, say '5' for most of our supers characters, then a character with 1 pt. of SPD more has a huge advantage that's disproportionate to the difference in the stat. His phases are set apart from other characters, and that gives him more freedom to choose to Haymaker, etc. Also, if his DEX is higher (which tends to be the case), it essentially gives him 1 "free" phase a turn in which he can do otherwise risky maneuvers (reduced DCV, especially) at virtually no increased risk. Example: SPD 6 DEX 30 character can do almost whatever he wants in seg 6, because he will get to act again at the beginning of seg 8 before SPD 5 characters do. The only way of combatting these disproportionate advantages is for characters to constantly hold their actions and "metagame" with the timing of their phases.

 

Our solution: We put away the chart- Each segment, characters each roll a d12 (I know you play HERO, but you gotta have one laying around). If a character's roll is equal to or less than his SPD stat, he gets a phase that segment, in order of DEX as usual. Characters can get a run of actions, or a run of non-actions, but statistically each gets the same number per Turn that he should.

 

If he rolls a 12, at the end of that segment give him his Post-Segment 12 Recovery and put into effect anything for that character that goes off at the end of a Turn. Example: Wonka rolls a 12...his exploding candy with the Limitation 'Extra Time: 1 Turn' goes off on his DEX. He also takes bleeding damage and gets a free recovery at the end of the segment.

 

If you like the SPD chart, great....but if you want to try something new with "initiative," give this one a shot.