Using Images to Change Environment?

[Angry Gumby]

I know the "official" policy is to use the images power for creating light (i.e., a light spell), rather than change environment. What I don't understand is why. Change environment seems so much better suited. To me, altering the temperature level and altering the lighting level in a room are quite similar thematically.

 

Am I missing something? Anyone have a good reason why I shouldn't go ahead and build my light spells with change environment?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Let me just say that I sympathize with your position, and I don't think it would be that hard or unbalancing to tweak Change Environment for this purpose.

 

With that out of the way, the official rulebook rationale seems to be that Change Environment can be used to cause minor negative effects on characters, like Perception penalties, Skill penalties or minor damage; but is explicitly forbidden from granting positive benefits, which would be necessary to negate the penalties to seeing in darkness that light generation would allow (5E p. 90). OTOH Images has a mechanism for improving the Perception of viewers in that environment.

 

Perhaps Steve Long reasoned that allowing CE to have positive benefits in the Perception area would open the door to allowing it in other areas, making it unbalancingly effective for its points. Images only affects Perception, so there's less potential for abuse.

 

That's just a guess, of course. The letter of the rules is all we can be sure of, particularly since Steve has a policy of not explaining his design choices to avoid interminable debates.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

My original interpretation of Images was that using Images created "fake" light. You could see, but you could only see what you put into the Image, making it almost useless as a true light source. For instance, if you didn't know that the passage ahead had a huge gaping pit in the middle of it, your Image would show smooth floor, right up until you fell to your doom.

 

Since the official declaration that Images makes real light and Change Environment does not, I've altered my interpretation, somewhat grudgingly, just to be on the same page as the rest of Herodom.

[Fitz]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

I was under the impression that Change Environment could do things like alter the ambient temperature within its area of effect for the better; that sort of thing certainly doesn't fall into the "only to cause minor penalties" usage.

 

As far as the raging "Images vs CE for light" controversy goes -- I don't much care either way. I found it weird when Fred first appeared, but that's really only because I'd always done it with CE in the past.

[Markdoc]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Yeah, but if you use images to create light, then you have a chance for smart people to realise it's not real, right?

 

So Thrud the mighty (INT3) can see just fine, but Whizzo the magnificent (INT30) realises the light is just an image and falls downstairs in the dark?

 

This is, in my ever so humble opinion one place where FREd got it wrong confusing special effect (images-which-are-just made-of-light) with mechanism (make not-dark).

 

cheers, Mark

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Images creates a sense effect. You use a PER roll to see if you can tell whether the image is 'real', but it doesn't make the image go away.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

I was under the impression that Change Environment could do things like alter the ambient temperature within its area of effect for the better; that sort of thing certainly doesn't fall into the "only to cause minor penalties" usage.

 

Hmm... that one's a tricky call. In and of itself raising the temperature would not provide any specific benefits to the character in terms of Roll results etc. that should be payed for when buying the CE. Now arguably increased temperature could offset some of the detrimental effects of being in a cold environment, but IMO that would fall more under the area of SFX.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Actually ... I could see using CE as light to create minor combat penalties of some sort as well ("GET THAT LIGHT OUTTA MY FACE, I CAN'T SEE!"). In theory, you can use CE as temperature control to alleviate some negative conditions, like being caught outside in a blizzard without winterwear, for example, rather than just hindering people.

[Angry Gumby]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

This is exactly my view on the matter. Images dont actually change an environment -- an image of a wall doesn't create a wall, nor does an image of a fire heat a room -- so an image of light, what, doesn't actually create light? Images has a mechanism for "disbelief," or seeing through the image, but with light there is no image to see through. It's just light.

 

Yeah, but if you use images to create light, then you have a chance for smart people to realise it's not real, right?

 

So Thrud the mighty (INT3) can see just fine, but Whizzo the magnificent (INT30) realises the light is just an image and falls downstairs in the dark?

 

This is, in my ever so humble opinion one place where FREd got it wrong confusing special effect (images-which-are-just made-of-light) with mechanism (make not-dark).

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

This is exactly my view on the matter. Images dont actually change an environment -- an image of a wall doesn't create a wall' date=' nor does an image of a fire heat a room -- so an image of light, what, doesn't actually create light? Images has a mechanism for "disbelief," or seeing through the image, but with light there is no image to see through. It's just light.[/quote']

 

Not to get into too fine a debate on this - I understand and respect your interpretation of the Power - but from my perspective it looks like you may be drawing too close a connection between game mechanic and special effect. When creating an illusory image of something that someone can tell isn't what it really appears to be, the penalty to Perception to see through the trick is the mechanic, but the SFX could be many different things. You could define a visual illusion as a hologram projected from a light source; you may be able to note inconsistencies which reveal it to be just a hologram, but it still exists as light. Similarly, and audible illusion of an army marching on your position could still be generated by sound. You don't have to create an "image of light" (I'm not sure that concept makes sense, anyway) to create an image with light.

 

Because of the senses that Images can be designed to affect, you could create an Image of a fire to heat a room that feels like it's heating a room (by including the Touch Sense Group) but wouldn't actually set anything on fire, melt frozen objects, thaw out frostbitten limbs etc. Those details could help you realize that the fire is illusory. However, whatever force is creating that sensory impression is still there whether or not you see through what it's creating.

 

Whether or not you agree with the rationale, Steve decided to allow the bonuses to Perception that would offset Darkness or make a brightly-illuminated object easier to spot, into Images rather than Change Environment. I'm not sure I agree with the decision, but I do think it makes sense conceptually.

[irishspy]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Not to get into too fine a debate on this - I understand and respect your interpretation of the Power - but from my perspective it looks like you may be drawing too close a connection between game mechanic and special effect. When creating an illusory image of something that someone can tell isn't what it really appears to be' date=' the penalty to Perception to see through the trick is the mechanic, but the SFX could be many different things. You could define a visual illusion as a hologram projected from a light source; you may be able to note inconsistencies which reveal it to be just a hologram, but it still exists as light. Similarly, and audible illusion of an army marching on your position could still be generated by sound. You don't have to create an "image of light" (I'm not sure that concept makes sense, anyway) to create an image [b']with[/b] light.

 

Because of the senses that Images can be designed to affect, you could create an Image of a fire to heat a room that feels like it's heating a room (by including the Touch Sense Group) but wouldn't actually set anything on fire, melt frozen objects, thaw out frostbitten limbs etc. Those details could help you realize that the fire is illusory. However, whatever force is creating that sensory impression is still there whether or not you see through what it's creating.

 

Whether or not you agree with the rationale, Steve decided to allow the bonuses to Perception that would offset Darkness or make a brightly-illuminated object easier to spot, into Images rather than Change Environment. I'm not sure I agree with the decision, but I do think it makes sense conceptually.

 

This discussion has been interesting to me because, as a nearly-complete HERO newbie, some concepts have been hard to wrap my head around. Using Images to illuminate has been one of them.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that using Images does not create the "image of light" that then illuminates a darkened room, but instead creates an image of a room that appears illuminated. Doesn't that then require that the caster know what the room and its contents look like beforehand, in order to create the correct image?

 

I can accept that, since it's in the rules and it's probably simpler than rewriting things, but it seems like ugly logic. (Which probably means I've misunderstood things. ) To create light, it seems that either CE or a minor transform would be better.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

This discussion has been interesting to me because, as a nearly-complete HERO newbie, some concepts have been hard to wrap my head around. Using Images to illuminate has been one of them.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that using Images does not create the "image of light" that then illuminates a darkened room, but instead creates an image of a room that appears illuminated. Doesn't that then require that the caster know what the room and its contents look like beforehand, in order to create the correct image?

 

I can accept that, since it's in the rules and it's probably simpler than rewriting things, but it seems like ugly logic. (Which probably means I've misunderstood things. ) To create light, it seems that either CE or a minor transform would be better.

 

Yeah, sometimes it takes while to grok some of these concepts. Happens to all of us, so don't worry about it.

 

Now if you're addressing me and my remarks which you quoted, I'm afraid that that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make. I'm saying that the Special Effect of the Image Power can be the creation of light, and that that light can illuminate a darkened room; in specific game-mechanic terms, it can provide plusses to Perception that offset the penalties for darkness in the room, as per the description of Images in the rulebook. Now it's possible for that light to be used to create a visible illusion that the room appears different from what it really is, like "painting" it with light, but that isn't necessary; the light can simply be illuminating, with no further complexity. It doesn't have to create the "image of a room that appears illuminated," because it is itself illuminating what's in the room.

[irishspy]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Yeah, sometimes it takes while to grok some of these concepts. Happens to all of us, so don't worry about it.

 

Now if you're addressing me and my remarks which you quoted, I'm afraid that that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make. I'm saying that the Special Effect of the Image Power can be the creation of light, and that that light can illuminate a darkened room

 

 

Ah, okay. I was missing the part about the special effect being the creation of light. The five-watt bulb of knowledge has just lit over my head.

 

Thanks!

[dstarfire]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

I tend to favor CE for light over images, though more because generalising a power as (another power + limitation/s) basically cripples that power due to all the other factors that are based on a powers active point cost. i.e. filling a hex with light is just as tiring (end cost), just as difficult (skill roll penalty) as filling that hex with an actual visual illusion. Not to mention that this approach puts you that much closer to the AP limit.

 

*goes into meaningless rant about active point system

[Fitz]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Yeah, but if you use images to create light, then you have a chance for smart people to realise it's not real, right?

 

So Thrud the mighty (INT3) can see just fine, but Whizzo the magnificent (INT30) realises the light is just an image and falls downstairs in the dark?

 

This is, in my ever so humble opinion one place where FREd got it wrong confusing special effect (images-which-are-just made-of-light) with mechanism (make not-dark).

 

I would expect the PER roll to realise that the Images were unreal wouldn't neccessarily make them disappear for the disbeliever.

 

Thrud might very likely expect to find the place lit up if he ever went back there, while Whizzo would realise that he'd better take his own lamp, just in case.

[waiwode]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Hmmm. I'm a big fan of just using CE for light creation anyway, however this may be what they were thinking:

 

Despite "Dungeon Thinking," a torch or a lantern doesn't just illuminate the immedeate region, like a bubble. Any light source is visible for a considerable distance.

 

Since any image that is created with Images is essentially visible as far as the eye can see, a flashlight or lantern makes some sense handled this way.

 

However. What about IR Flashlights/Spotlights? How do we create an image in IR? It was pretty easy to say "Change Environment (IR Illumination) Beam (or Cone) Only" in the old rules.

 

Doug.

 

Along the same path, we once had a Sorceror in a Superhero game use CE to raise the temperature in an area to body-temp to help defeat the effects of a sniper's Thermal Sight.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

I have no problem with CE being used only for minor penalties. While the mechanics for creating minor bonuses using CE should work, and seem easier, I do not necessarily prefer them. Certainly as a GM you can say that CE can be used in that manner - HERO is a toolkit - and I don't think you would be unbalancing the game.

 

LL was on a roll in explaining the point of Images, and I think that is worth continuing.

 

Fantasy HERO talks at length about light sources, and how their built. For our Narosia setting, we have summarized them as follows:

 

Candle: PER ½†radius, +½†PER-1, +1†PER-2, 2†total illumination

Torch: PER 2†radius, +2†PER-1, +2†PER-2, 6†total illumination

Campfire: PER 4†radius, +4†PER-1, +4†PER-2, 12†total illumination

 

This can be built with Images, but cannot be built with CE. The idea here is the base radius provides illumination such that there is no darkenss penalty to the perception roll (PER). The next increment is a -1 penalty, and the third increment a -2. Beyond that it does not provide significant illumination (-4 darkness penalty), although it does make the bearer a high-contrast target (+5 to be perceived).

 

Now, Images. Images is perhaps a misnomer. Sensory Effect might be better, but doesn't have a nice simple ring to it. When using this power you actually create the sensory effect, whatever it is. The PER roll is not a roll to disbelieve, it is a roll to see the effect for what it is... artificial. That doesn't make it any less real, just like recognizing that someone in a holloween costume isn't an actual person of that kind (e.g. Doctor's outfit). The costume is still there, you either recognize it as real or you don't. Another analogy would be Lip Syncing - make your PER roll and you see they're faking it, but most people believe it's real. Either way, it's still the person's voice, and there is still sound.

 

This gets trickier when you start talking about non-visual, non-auditory effects. Smell/Taste is also pretty easy, but touch is the one that often makes people stop and ponder. Can you create a wall that feels real? Absolutely. However, you can still walk through it, but it might take some convincing (e.g. Platform 9 3/4 in Harry Potter). Which leads me to heat... a sense of touch.

 

The warmth you would feel from the Images power would be like the warmth you feel from drinking a nice whiskey on a cold day. You feel warm, but you aren't, and you can get frostbite just as easily. People using an illusory fire on a cold day would mentally feel like they are warming up until the pain of frostbite starts adding PER modifiers for them to wonder how this could be happening, possibly prompting them to throw some paper in the fire, which then doesn't burn (unless the Illusionist is actively maintaining the illusion and lets the illusion respond).

 

This is where multiple power attacks can make images especially interesting. Combine Images with Force Wall. The Force Wall provides the actual physical barrier (or Entangle), while Images makes it fit into the surroundings, feel like brick/wood/stone and so on. One could have FW with Variable Special effect (brick/wood/stone/paper/etc.), but it wouldn't necessarily blend perfectly with the surrounding area. Images would ensure that. Then when the mage says, "Thrud, this wall is an illusion, proceed," and Thrud bounces off the wall, grabs the mage, and uses him as a battering ram, you have an interesting "illusory" situation.

 

Relative to other games, RM Spell Law handled illusions in practically the exact same manner.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Using Images to Change Environment?

 

Oh, IR is one of the senses in the Sight sense group. You can either add it on to another sense (adding a single targeting sense to images is +5 points), or just state that your Images are only visible to IR. The GM may even allow you to create IR Only Images for 5 points, since the whole group is 10 points for 1 hex.

 

The advantage of using Images to do this is the built-in PER modifier effects, either a penalty to percieve that the images are artificial OR a bonus to increase the ability to sense a truly real effect (e.g. amplify voice, create light, etc.).