Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

[arcady]

I figure it's an entangle with OAF, Strength Minimum, and Real Weapon, but how much entangle, and what strength minimum?

[Outsider]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

2 DEF/2 Body Entangle = 1/4 chance per phase for 10 STR to do 1 body. 1/36 to do 2 body. Such an Entanlge will hold a normal (SPD 2) person for 30 seconds (6 phases). Unless they are allowed to push or haymaker vs the Entangle, in which case it will be considerably less. A heroically strong character (STR 20+) will often be able to shrug entangles like this off with a half phase or less.

 

3 DEF/3 Body Entangle = There is only a 1/36 chance of a normal (STR 10) to do damage to this entangle per phase. This will hold such a person for 9 or 10 minutes, again, only if they are not allowed to haymaker or push vs the entangle. Odds are that a heroically strong character will lose 1-3 phases from such an entangle.

 

4 DEF/4 Body Entangle = Normals will be unable to escape from this entangle, unless they are allowed to haymaker against it. Even then, it will take them some time to get out. Heroically strong characters may also be trapped for some time, possibly several turns, unless they are truly mighty (25+STR)

 

DEF 5/Body 5 (+) = A net able to contain pretty much anyone for some time, if not permanently. I think this would definitely be unbalancingly effective. Especially if the net is bought as Transparent to Piercing and Bludgeoning Attacks. (Everyone would be carrying a net and a spear!)

 

 

So :

 

Do you want the net to have a significant effect on a heroically strong characters, or to mainly be a danger to 'normals' and/or physically weaker heroes?

 

Note that this all assumes the following STR scale :

_8-17 STR = Normals, Weaker Heroes (Spell casters, some light fighters)

18-25 STR = Strong and Mighty Heroes (Heavy fighters and "strongman schtick" fighters)

[arcady]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

Um...

 

I want it to make sense for what a net ought to be able to do.

[MitchellS]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

I think what he was getting at is that it depends on what the net is made out of, and it also depends on what you think a net should hold. Most 10-15 Str people can't rip their way out of a net, but they cut their way out given time. If you think a 25 Str character is Conanesque then a 3/2 net is powerful enough for you. The defense of the net entirely depends upon the power-levels of the game its being used in.

[Outsider]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

Yes, basically, I dont think trying to model a net on what it would do in the real world is necessarily the best thing to do when running a fantasy hero game. Realistically, I dont think any human entwined in a sturdy net would be able to break free by brute strength alone. But modelling that in FH would make nets too powerful. So I propose that you pick a strength for the entangle based on how effective you want it to be, not based on how effective it should be in the 'real world'.

[arcady]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

Ok, well given that a long spear does 2d6, and a broadsword 1d6+1, how effective of a hold should a net have?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

I found these stats for nets in "The Arsenal" section of Ron Miller's excellent Wasteland HERO post-apoc gaming website, under "Thrown Weapons." You can adjust them to taste, of course, but I think they're a good basis for low-tech net weapons:

 

Net, standard: 3D6 Entangle (Entangle and target both take damage), -1 OCV, STR Min 12, Long weapon, Can be thrown.

 

Net, weighted: 2D6 Normal damage/ 3D6 Entangle (Entangle and target both take damage), -1 OCV, STR Min 15, Long weapon, Can be thrown.

 

Net, barbed: 1/2D6 Killing damage/ 2D6 Entangle (Killing damage is Continuous, Entangle and target both take damage), -1 OCV, STR Min 13, Long weapon, Can be thrown.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

Weren't gladiator's nets mostly intended to wrap around an opponent's weapon for the purpose of restricting its use or making him drop it? IIRC, they weren't large enough to cover a person, so an entangle doesn't feel right -- unless I am forgetting rules for an entangle to affect a limb other than the legs.

 

Is there any way to have it be something like a bonus to a 'bind' or 'disarm' combat maneuver? Of course it would require a to-hit roll, and/or maybe a skill roll.

 

Any other suggestions along these lines?

[Outsider]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

I would probably go for a 3d6 Entangle, where the entangle and target take damage from slashing weapons, but only the target takes damage from piercing or bludgeoning weapons. I would also probably give it a -2 OCV, and 1 Recoverable Charge (recovering it fully (ie, such that it can be used to try to entangle again) takes a full turn)

 

The Barbed Net, instead of giving it a continuous killing attack, I would put the Backlash advantage on such that it did up to 1/2 D6 Killing backlash to anyone struggling within the net, and (by GM fiat) declare that the backlash was always killing damage, even if the struggling was normal damage (STR damage).

 

StGrimblefig's thought could be incorporated by writing up the net as a small multipower instead of as a straight attack, maybe. If used to block, bind or disarm, the recoverable charge is not expended, but if used to entangle, it would be.

 

There is also the possibility of adding a disadvantage to the Entangle power that it can be blocked/deflected (though probably at a penalty, and only by sufficiently long weapons)

[Markdoc]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

I'd consider it to be a bonus to the grab/bind maneuvers (+3 sounds about right) and possibly a small bonus to STR for those two maneuvers.

 

Entangle doesn't seem right, because that means

a) you could toss it over someone and truss them up. It's a small net - in real life the person could simply grasp the edge and throw it away in a few seconds

how easy it is to counter depends on your STR - but it's hard to see anyone below Conan level tearing it apart: it's more a case of wriggling out of it. You might want to go for the no-DEF option, I suppose

c) as far as we can tell the retarius rarely threw his net like a fisherman - it was used to trip, or entangle weapons or head, but he retained his hold on it.

 

cheers, Mark

[arcady]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

These grab, bind, disarm options sound good. Is +3 too high though? Or maybe even too low (probably not - +3 has a massive impact in Hero, especially on the Heroic scale). I suspect Nets are very good at this, but just how good?

 

The character I was giving this too was armed with a long spear as her other weapon, but I may down shift that to a 1 handed weapon so she can use them together gladiator style.

 

http://home.pacbell.net/arcady0/Hero/Iola.pdf

(that has an older entangle net still - a correction will have to wait until I get home - but it just shows you what made me start this thread).

[Markdoc]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

I suggested the net have +3 because several weapons already give you +2 to bind and grab maneuvers (the sai, for example, or the swordbreaker) - I guesstimate a net would be a little better, hence +3. This balances off against the fact that you can't stab someone with a net and it's pretty useless for parrying - although if it's weighted you might want to add +1d6 HA. Also remember that to target a focus (ie a weapon) requires a -2 penalty on top of the grab penalties.

 

So in the hands of a trained fighter, with grab and bind maneuvers, it could be a very effective weapon. It's not a super-weapon though - in many cases I'd rather have a shield and +3 DCV! Also, it's very much a one-on-one thing. If you are fighting two guardsmen, #2 is likely to stick a spear in you while you have #1 grabbed, unless you are careful.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

The 0 DEF, +3 to grabs etc. sounds reasonable.

[KA.]

Re: Gladiator's Net - what stats should it have?

 

You could also add in 1" of Stretching to the mix, to allow for the extra reach the net would give you.

Based on the "highly realistic" crap you see in movies, it always looks like guys fighting someone with a net have to stay backed off a little, and then charge in to attack.

This could also allow you to use the net to Block or Disarm for someone else, if your ally was in range.

I would assume that any net that was heavy enough to work well in combat could deliver your normal STR damage to a foe, so I would not take a bunch of limitations on the Stretching, other than the normal ones that you have outlined. You could go for something like "No Fine Manipulation" so it could not be used to write a letter.

 

KA.