WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

How many times has it mattered that villians actually be able stop the PCs? Quite a few in experience. An unstoppable hero, in many combat situations can't fail as he can just keep pounding until the villians go down without regard. I don't get the idea that in most combat situations being able to hurt you opponent doesn't matter.

 

Its 120 points in an EC, which, IIRC, The Sheild had. Impenetrable Force Feild. So that was 230 more points for other abilities. Even without the EC thats 110 points and that is assuming a 350 point game. Enough to get some fairly decent attributes and damage output as you likely can skimp on some things like PD, ED and Con without much risk.

 

There's also the matter of cost. 240 points for what amounts to Infinite PD and ED is pretty cost effective.

 

Uhm, currently I'm playing someone who thinks they're invulnerable in one of your games.

 

To date, that hasn't made a differance, and only the danger room experience (which he's shrugging off as illusion ) has hurt.

 

 

Tactically, any villains he encounters should stay away from him and flatten his teammates. Then either immobilize him (you DO have a 60 STR brick, right?) or run away from him with the loot (there was a _reason_ you're fighting the heroes, right?).

 

Being invulnerable affects their actions, sure. But it doesn't stop things from being a complete rout.

 

it's 120 points 'only' only if assuming a 60pt EC btw. Somehow, I think those are unusual.

 

Yes, in a combat situation, The Shield is likely to kick a lot of ass. Then again, 48/48 Hardened Armour plus +30/+30 PD (also 240 points) would have a similiar effect vs a sane level of opposition.

 

I mean, it IS his main superpower, and it IS essentially a purely in-combat power. He should get mileage out of it. I think, that at about 150 points (more, less?), it SHOULD be pretty in it's ramifications and effects; forcing villains to eliminate the possiblity of KOing him is fair enough, IMO.

[OddHat]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Suppress versus his special effect, drain versus his special effect, EGO powers including BOECV killing attacks, Transformation attacks, Drains versus BOD or STUN ... Just being physically invulnerable is no guarantee of survival. I've had characters who were effectively invulnerable in my games (Very high PD/ED and other stats); challenging them was never much of a problem.

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Uhm, currently I'm playing someone who thinks they're invulnerable in one of your games.

 

To date, that hasn't made a differance, and only the danger room experience (which he's shrugging off as illusion ) has hurt.

 

There is a difference between thinking you are Invulnerable and actually being invulnerable. To date, he hasn't actually been in a fight.

 

Tactically, any villains he encounters should stay away from him and flatten his teammates. Then either immobilize him (you DO have a 60 STR brick, right?) or run away from him with the loot (there was a _reason_ you're fighting the heroes, right?).

 

Assmuing there is a 60 Strength Brick, he can be tied up Grabbing this guy and holding him for the entire fight, or you can try to "stay away from him" during the entire match, while similaring dealing with his team mates while he can move from target to target and act pretty much freely. Unless your entire team has high movement rates or some other advantage. its harder than you are making it out to be. Again, my point, unless the villain are pretty much specficially designed to deal with this guy, they are in serious trouble.

 

The reason you are fighting the heroes, isn't always theft. There are often other objectives, which Invulnerable Man can get to and stop without much of a problem. If all the villains can do when you show up is run for it, that doesn't make a very exciting game long term, IMO.

 

 

[quote[

it's 120 points 'only' only if assuming a 60pt EC btw. Somehow, I think those are unusual.

 

Not if you're putting 120 active points in them and allowing 120 active point powers in your game. Why would they be rare then? It was a 60 point EC, as I recall that simply the smartest configuration of the Elemental control.

 

Yes, in a combat situation, The Shield is likely to kick a lot of ass. Then again, 48/48 Hardened Armour plus +30/+30 PD (also 240 points) would have a similiar effect vs a sane level of opposition.

 

Define "Sane" level of opposition? Someone actually able to hurt you? A 26d6

attack will do that. I've seen 350 point character that could pull that off with a Haymaker, Martial Arts, or what have you. If you're allowing 78 point of armor or complete Invulnerable, sane opposition is relative.

 

With Armor, then you have the option of high dice attacks, Find Weakness, mulitiple levels of Armor Peircing/Pentrating, NND, AVLD, etc. None of which will phase the Dmg Reduction character in the slightest. Also given that you don't ever need to worry about being hurt you can really skimp on some other things bricks have to worry about, like Con

 

I mean, it IS his main superpower, and it IS essentially a purely in-combat power. He should get mileage out of it. I think, that at about 150 points (more, less?), it SHOULD be pretty in it's ramifications and effects; forcing villains to eliminate the possiblity of KOing him is fair enough, IMO.

 

120 Points with an EC, 240 without. I don't agree that almost Infinite PD and ED are worth "Just" 240 points. Frankly, in Champions most superpowers are mainly in combat. Most of the game's balancing factors are geared toward how the power performs in combat. Compare 100 DR with a similar cost of Armor, Forcefeild or, for that matter, Energy Blast. With a little creativity you can still be a valid threat and, outside of custom tailored situations (meaning the villains will likely be either over balanced for the your team mates or one trick ponys that are effective against I man and kind of useless otherwise) you will be all but unstoppable. In a higher point game, it becomes more and more of a bargin. I just don't think complete Invulnerability is a good thing in actual play, aside from the occasional plot device. I used to think differently until I actually tried it in a game. Further debate doesn't seem like its going to go anywhere, but if you'd like to continue we can take to PMs or email since I think you know mine.

[nexus]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Suppress versus his special effect' date=' drain versus his special effect, EGO powers including BOECV killing attacks, Transformation attacks, Drains versus BOD or STUN ... Just being physically invulnerable is no guarantee of survival. I've had characters who were effectively invulnerable in my games (Very high PD/ED and other stats); challenging them was never much of a problem.[/quote']

 

Can't really answer that as I don't know of the Shield had contingency defences against Power and Mental Attacks or not. And I still say there is a differene between High Defenses and Infinite defenses.

[OddHat]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Can't really answer that as I don't know of the Shield had contingency defences against Power and Mental Attacks or not. And I still say there is a differene between High Defenses and Infinite defenses.

 

It's a fair enough subject for disagreement.

 

I think it's a play style issue more than anything else. My villains almost never have "Crush the Heroes" as a goal, and I'd have no problem building the rarevillain who did have that goal with the powers he needed to do it, even versus an "invulnerable" character. Any rubber-science gadgeteer or mage with the right skills or contact with someone with the right skills will eventually be able to hurt or kill the invulnerable character if the GM wants that to happen (unless for some reason the GM has allowed 100% Damage Reduction versus Adjustment and Mental powers as well, plus immunity to every variation on Teleport, EDM, Megascale Movement, etc). The villains who have other goals only need to keep Mister Invincible occupied long enough to accomplish their tasks, and that only takes a little planning.

 

I do agree that he'll be hard to deal with in straight one-on-one combat with someone the GM hasn't specifically designed to deal with him. In many campaigns, the concept won't work. In some it will.

[ghost-angel]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

look a completely hijacked thread ... I don't normally post WWYCD scenarios, but someone's gotta drag this back on track.

 

Jessica - has to be incinerated to die in the first place, so assuming that happens.. a tombstone placed next to her first husband's. Her current SO is a nercomancer, he can do with her ashes what he feels is appropriate, as long as he doesn't raise her. She's already undead and doesn't like it one bit .. to quote "Death, final death? that would be a wonderful thing. I'm not sure it's even possible, but if it is, just let me rest in peace."

 

Sarah - "I don't care what happens to the body, it'll probably be eaten but something indescribable that I don't want to hear about, but just make sure my soul is safe ok? Give it to The Goddess for safekeeping in fact." (she consumes souls herself .. she knows what she's talking about.)

[Badger]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Superbadger: Why the hell should I care? I'll be dead, remember.

 

The reality: probably a small service at a church. Body destroyed to prevent possible cloning.

 

Might get bored in the afterlife if he cant find any fighting, comes back to Earth as ghost, just for kicks.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

I'm posting this one only because Worldmaker posted here and I think he'd appreciate it.

 

Omnipresent - "How about some optimism here? We will find whoever it is that is going around trying to take us out and stop them. But if you absolutely must know, I'd want to be buried next to my father."

[Ironhide]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Ironhide: Death? but I'm Invulnerable, right? I haven't thought about it but as long as I die serving the US of A i'll die statisfied.

 

Darkfire: Die?, Die! The magics of necromancy are mine to command, Death obeys MY command! Death cannot come for me, I send it to consume my foes. [que maniacal laughter as the rest of the group edges away]

 

Father John O'Mally: when I die it will be serving God's will, what greater reward can one ask for? If possiable bury me in a Catholic ceremony and return my saber to the Order, another will take up my burden.

[sinanju]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Your character has been asked by a teammate or friend what sort of funeral arrangements they want, should the worst occur.

 

"But I'm immortal."

 

"Just in case, okay?"

 

So, what sort of sendoff would your character like to have (and what's likely to happen instead?)

 

Hmmm.

 

LE FANTOME would want a wake. A huge party with truckloads of booze for all of his many friends to eat, drink, remember him, and then move on with their lives.

 

HELL'S ANGEL really doesn't care. Whatever the people who care about her need to deal with their grief is fine by her.

 

CASSANDRA is 16 years old. See "But I'm immortal" above. Forced to confront the idea, she'd probably opt for a traditional funeral (with lots of weeping and wailing, of course).

[jediklingon]

Re: WWYCD? #126: For Whom the Bell Tolls

 

Voltage: "Just throw my body in cryogenic storage until you figure out a way

to bring me back. Besides, don't you know that superheroes never really die

unless they retire first? And somtimes not even then. Well, whatever you do,

don't let Mechanon or VIPER get hold of me, OK?"

 

What would actually happen: Voltage's body would be turned over to his

mentor, the Steel Centurian. Centurian would bury him beside his parents.

Shortly after that, the body would be dug up by VIPER or Mechanon, who

would either build a cyborg out of him or use him as an organic power source.