Need Help With Naked Advantages/Adders

[schir1964]

Could some of you guys give me some examples of how Naked Advantages/Adders are calculated (AP/RP/etc...). Thanks.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Col. Orange]

Okay, how about 20 STR to 20 STR Armour Piercing

 

A) Take the value of the existing power:

20 STR costs 20 points (10pts free for starting value + 10 spent by player)

 

Work out how much power will cost with advantage:

AP is a + 1/2 advantage so 20 STR AP = 30pts (20 x (1 + 1/2))

 

C) Take and subtract A) from it:

30 - 20 = 10pts to be able to apply the AP advantage to 20 STR

[Yamo]

Let's say you want to build an elf for your Fantasy HERO game that can fire arrows from a bow much faster than a normal archer. In other words, you want to be able to apply Autofire (3 Shots; +1/4) to any bow he uses.

 

First, assume that bows in your campaign equate to 1-2d6 RKAs.

 

Using the highest range you want to be able to apply the Advantage to, 2d6 in this case, you figure out how much the Autofire would add to the cost. RKA 2d6 is 30 Active Points normally, and with the 1/4 Advantage that increases to 37. Difference: 7 points. That's the Active Point cost of your naked Advantage.

 

Since the naked Advantage is considered a Power unto itself, you can place further Advantages, Limitations, and such on it at this point to further refine your concept.

 

When all is said and done, you have this:

 

Rapid-fire archery: Autofire (3 Shots) for up to RKA 2d6 (7 Active Points), Limited Power: Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

 

Make sense?

[paul_runstedler]

Is it just me, or does the "naked advantage" give you hedoublehockeysticks of a lot of bang for the buck?

 

I mean if I wanted to by autofire on the 2d6RKA bow that I bought as a power it would cost 7 extra points.

(30 * 1.25)=37.5 Now I have autofire only on the bow that I purchased.

 

If I buy the same advantage for any bows it costs only 5 points (see Yamo's message). Now I can use autofire on any bows (that do up to 2d6 damage)!

 

I realize that the second example would likely only be used in a heroic campaign, but still the cost balancing seems a little off...

 

Paul

[Yamo]

I realize that the second example would likely only be used in a heroic campaign, but still the cost balancing seems a little off...

 

This is one of those cases where there's just a BIG difference between Heroic and Superheroic.

 

Also, as a GM, I would consider all naked Advantages to be "caution sign" Powers by default.

 

They can be fair, balanced, and fun, but, as you pointed out, the strong potential for abuse is there.

[Xandarr]

Originally posted by paul_runstedler

Is it just me, or does the "naked advantage" give you hedoublehockeysticks of a lot of bang for the buck?

 

I mean if I wanted to by autofire on the 2d6RKA bow that I bought as a power it would cost 7 extra points.

(30 * 1.25)=37.5 Now I have autofire only on the bow that I purchased.

 

If I buy the same advantage for any bows it costs only 5 points (see Yamo's message). Now I can use autofire on any bows (that do up to 2d6 damage)!

 

I realize that the second example would likely only be used in a heroic campaign, but still the cost balancing seems a little off...

 

Paul

You're right, it is. That limitaion doesn't limit the power at all. The problem is in assuming that a naked advantage like that works on every bow, every time. It doesn't. It only works on one bow as purchased, making the limitation worth nothing.

 

That's why for such a power like that, instead of allowing the limitation (bows only), I would require some sort of advantage to balance the cost. To further carry the archery example, since the power can be used on ANY bow in the campaign, I would require a similar advantage to those used on adjustment powers: Variable Advantage (any one bow, one at a time): +¼. This bumps the cost of the power from 7 to 9... not much, but still a bit more balancing compared to buying the power by itself.

 

But that's just me, I'm funny that way...

Steve

[Yamo]

You're right, it is. That limitaion doesn't limit the power at all.

 

Well, it limits it in that it can't be applied to any non-bow RKA. I could see it reducing it to -1/4, but the Advantage as written is objectively inferior to one that could apply to any RKA, hence the Limitation.

 

The problem is in assuming that a naked advantage like that works on every bow, every time. It doesn't.

 

I think you're somewhat unclear on the function (indeed the point) of naked Advantages. It would indeed work on any bow as written (although that bow would be limited to doing 2d6 damage at most).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Xandarr

You're right, it is. That limitaion doesn't limit the power at all. The problem is in assuming that a naked advantage like that works on every bow, every time. It doesn't. It only works on one bow as purchased, making the limitation worth nothing.

Actually, that is not the case. A Naked Avantage would work on any bow the character picked up, not just his own personal bow. That is why it is called a "Naked" Advantage. The Advantage is not tied to any specific power. If it only worked for his bow, the bow itself would be purchased with the Autofire on it.

 

I would give the Limitation a -1/4 value due to the fact that in a fantasy game the only RKA attack options the elf would seem to have are bows, crossbows, and thrown knives. That is not a large enough group, IMO, to warrant a -1/2 Limitation.

[misterdeath]

I'd have probably defined the power as OIF: Bow of Opportunity (-1/2) instead of the limited power used.

 

He's got to have a bow to use the power, hence the focus, but he can use it with any bow, hence OIF.

 

Same cost, perhaps a better limitation in that Bows are the defined autofire actor (not crossbows, not rocks, not daggers), and it distinctly says that he's got to have one in order to make the power work.

 

Disarm him of his bow, he picks up one of the ones just laying around, voila, Flurry of Arrow time.

 

And, yeah, it's pretty darn cheap. That's why Naked Modifiers are GMs Call powers.

 

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath

I'd have probably defined the power as OIF: Bow of Opportunity (-1/2) instead of the limited power used.

 

He's got to have a bow to use the power, hence the focus, but he can use it with any bow, hence OIF.

I would agree with you if this were a superhero character, but in a Heroic Level game the character does not pay for his weapons. He does not need to buy the Power to shoot a bow. Bows are free. What he is paying for is the ability to shoot any bow he picks up rapidly. Since the character does not pay for the bow, he only pays for the Advantage.

[misterdeath]

Perhaps you misunderstand.

 

Autofire (3 shots) on up to 2d6 RKA (7 active points) OIF Bow of Opportunity (-1/2). 5 points.

 

The power has nothing to do with the bow, even though he needs one to use it. It has everything to do with the skill of the wielder.

 

It's sort of like buying an Uber Martial Arts Maneuver or one of those nifty characters in Ninja Hero.

 

But, if you were running, I'd be more than happy to take a -1/4 (Bows only) limitation. It's not worth quibbling over the point (5 vs 6 cost)

 

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Perhaps you misunderstand.

I did misunderstand what you meant. Sorry about that.

 

But, if you were running, I'd be more than happy to take a -1/4 (Bows only) limitation. It's not worth quibbling over the point (5 vs 6 cost)

What kind of crappy HERO System player are you? Every single point is worth quibbling over!

 

PS: That is probably the first time in my life I have ever used "guibbling" in a sentence.

[Doug Limmer]

Originally posted by Monolith

A Naked Avantage would work on any bow the character picked up, not just his own personal bow. That is why it is called a "Naked" Advantage. The Advantage is not tied to any specific power. If it only worked for his bow, the bow itself would be purchased with the Autofire on it.

I think I'll crunch some numbers on this:

 

Player one has a magic bow: 2d6 RKA, Autofire, OAF. Base Cost: 30. Active Cost: 45. Real Cost: 22

 

Player two has a magic bow: 2d6 RKA, OAF. Base Cost: 30. Real Cost: 15. Player two also has the naked advantage "Autofire" for any bow up to 6 DC. Base Cost: 15 (45 - 30). Real Cost: Either 10 (with -1/2 OIF bow of opportunity) or 12 (with -1/4 'only bows' limitation). Total Cost: either 25 or 27.

 

So, for either 3 or 5 points more, player two can autofire with nearly any bow, rather than with just the one. Considering that player two will most often use his magic bow rather than another 'bow of opportunity', does this cost seem right for the ability? Is this more useful than, or less useful than, say, +1 CSL with the bow or a level or two of Defense Maneuver?

 

Are their other factors to consider other than the basic ones above? [And, yes, I know, Fantasy HERO characters usually don't pay points for magic bows. The points are mostly for balance-comparison purposes.]

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Doug Limmer

Player two has a magic bow: 2d6 RKA, OAF. Base Cost: 30. Real Cost: 15. Player two also has the naked advantage "Autofire" for any bow up to 6 DC. Base Cost: 15 (45 - 30). Real Cost: Either 10 (with -1/2 OIF bow of opportunity) or 12 (with -1/4 'only bows' limitation). Total Cost: either 25 or 27.

Well, in a Champions game I would give the Naked Advantage the OAF Limitation as well. It's just an extention of a power that you are buying.

 

So, for either 3 or 5 points more, player two can autofire with nearly any bow, rather than with just the one. Considering that player two will most often use his magic bow rather than another 'bow of opportunity', does this cost seem right for the ability? Is this more useful than, or less useful than, say, +1 CSL with the bow or a level or two of Defense Maneuver?

For 3-5 points you get 3 shots instead of one. In general I would say that is much more useful than a CSL.

 

Are their other factors to consider other than the basic ones above? [And, yes, I know, Fantasy HERO characters usually don't pay points for magic bows. The points are mostly for balance-comparison purposes.]

You have already stated the biggest factor (in Fantasy Hero the character does not pay for the bow attack), but there are other factors. For example:

 

30 point Multipower (OAF Bow)

1) 2d6 RKA

2) 1d6+1 RKA Explosion

3) 1d6+1 RKA Armor Piercing

Naked Advantage: 3 shot Autofire on upto a 6 DC RKA, OAF Bow

 

Now you have an Advantage which, in the Rules FAQ states, can add to all three of those slots. So the character can Autofire 3 different attacks. But even if you ruled that it could only affect one slot, you have the advantage of not needing to increase the Multipower, and also the fact that the Naked Advantage, unlike a normal Advantage, does not need to be used with the power all the time.

[Killer Shrike]

As a side note:

 

I dont have my book with me and Im a bit hazy on the details, but it seems like Bow and Arrows of Opportunity would be more correct, and qualify for the Arrangement option of FOCI. (?Somebody w/ Book handy pls correct/confirm?)

 

 

All that aside, I personally really like the Naked Power Advantage option as a character designer, because it makes possible some power constructs that previously were difficult to accomplish due to Active Point limits (such as the example presented above of the Arrow Array Multipower), and also for Advantages that one might not always want to apply.

 

 

As a GM I would be very careful in allowing its use unrestricted in a Heroic level campaign (ie any campaign where among other things Equipment is not pointed but rather purchased). For example, in the case of the Autofire w/ Bow NPA, I can see 3 shots, but what about 10? Is it really appropriate to most Heroic level campaigns to have a dude spraying Arrows like a Machine Gun? I mean, draw, knock, aim, and shoot 10 shots in 1 second?

 

Even in a superheroic campaign, is something like Naked Power Advantage, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible) applicable to any power with 30 AP or less legal?

 

NPA definitely warrants close attention......

[Lord Liaden]

Another factor to consider is that a Naked Advantage counts as a separate Power, with only the Active Points in the Advantage, for purposes of Drain, Suppress etc. attacks, and for calculating Defense if it's built into a Focus. Attacks of this sort are usually more common in Superheroic campaigns, but as was pointed out earlier, the abuse potential for the Naked Advantage approach is also greater in superheroic campaigns, so this would be one balancing factor.

 

Still needs careful regulation, though.

[Doug Limmer]

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying here, Monolith.

Originally posted by Monolith

Well, in a Champions game I would give the Naked Advantage the OAF Limitation as well. It's just an extention of a power that you are buying.

If I understand you correctly, you would let a superheroic character (i.e., one who buys equipment with points) buy the naked advantage with OAF and still let it be used with anyone's bow? So, the character could pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and use it Autofire? It seems odd to me at first glance, but then, I have far less practical experience with HERO than I would like.

 

For 3-5 points you get 3 shots instead of one. In general I would say that is much more useful than a CSL.

My 3-5 point difference was for a magic bow with Autofire built in vs. a magic bow with skill-based autofire bought separately. Both characters had autofire on the attack. The only difference (in my example) was that one character only could Autofire with a single, specific bow, while the other one could Autofire with any bow.

 

I think it's safe to say that a power and a Naked Advantage is more flexible (inherently) than a power bought with that same advantage attached. I'm trying to determine if that flexibility can be measured in terms of character points.

 

You have already stated the biggest factor (in Fantasy Hero the character does not pay for the bow attack)[...]

I'm still trying to figure out how much of a difference this really makes. Sadly, I have no personal experience with Fantasy HERO. There are two things which come to mind:

 

Wouldn't the character 'pay' for the privilege of the bow (compared to those who have nothing equivalent) through some other means: money, favors, danger, something? If so, then it might not matter (for comparison purposes) whether or not the bow is paid for with character points.

 

If the bow is 'free', then not paying character points for the bow means that the character with the magic-bow-with-Autofire is getting his Autofire for 'free' as far as character points are concerned, while the Naked Advantage person pays with character points. So, while a Naked Advantage is more flexible, it's also more expensive: i.e., not free. In my previous example, that would make the ability 10 or 12 points more expensive (or 7 if you use OAF) rather than 3 or 5.

 

The multipower example is certainly important to consider; thank you for pointing it out.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Doug Limmer

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying here, Monolith.If I understand you correctly, you would let a superheroic character (i.e., one who buys equipment with points) buy the naked advantage with OAF and still let it be used with anyone's bow? So, the character could pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and use it Autofire? It seems odd to me at first glance, but then, I have far less practical experience with HERO than I would like.

Yes, because the bow is just a focus. Anyone can use Rainbow Archer's bow whether they have a Naked Advantage or not. Bulldozer can pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and shoot it. He will not shoot it well because he does not have a Weapon's Familiarity or levels with it, but he can still shoot it.

 

Archer, on the other hand, because he has bought a Naked Advantage Autofire on bows only, can pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and cut loose with multiple arrows.

 

Weapon's Master also has the Naked Advantage, but does not have the "Bows Only" Limitation. Weapon's Master can pick up a handgun and autofire it, a bow and autofire it, a group of throwing knives and autofire them, ect.

 

Wouldn't the character 'pay' for the privilege of the bow (compared to those who have nothing equivalent) through some other means: money, favors, danger, something? If so, then it might not matter (for comparison purposes) whether or not the bow is paid for with character points.

No. In non-superhero games, weapons are not paid for with points. You can walk into K-Mart and buy a bow and start practicing with it. No character points are spent.

 

If the bow is 'free', then not paying character points for the bow means that the character with the magic-bow-with-Autofire is getting his Autofire for 'free' as far as character points are concerned, while the Naked Advantage person pays with character points.

The difference here is between a character who has a "magic" autofire bow, and a character which is so skilled with a bow that he can pick up any bow on the battlefield and use it like it were magic. The character is paying the extra point to be able to do something that anyone else with that bow cannot do. This is no different than a character buying +5" Leaping (in a wuxia-style campaign) to also be able to do something that no other character can do.

[Doug Limmer]

Originally posted by Monolith

Yes, because the bow is just a focus. Anyone can use Rainbow Archer's bow whether they have a Naked Advantage or not. Bulldozer can pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and shoot it. He will not shoot it well because he does not have a Weapon's Familiarity or levels with it, but he can still shoot it.

 

Archer, on the other hand, because he has bought a Naked Advantage Autofire on bows only, can pick up Rainbow Archer's bow and cut loose with multiple arrows.

 

Weapon's Master also has the Naked Advantage, but does not have the "Bows Only" Limitation. Weapon's Master can pick up a handgun and autofire it, a bow and autofire it, a group of throwing knives and autofire them, ect.

This seems a fine justification for a "Bows only" limitation on the Naked Advantage. I don't see at all how it justifies an "OAF" limitation on the Naked Advantage. Especially when the precedent seems to be for an "OIF: X of opportunity" limitation. If you think that a "Bows only" limitation is worth -1 (the same as "OAF"), then great!

 

No. In non-superhero games, weapons are not paid for with points. You can walk into K-Mart and buy a bow and start practicing with it. No character points are spent.

I hate to phrase it this way, but did you read what I wrote? I specifically mentioned that you don't pay with points; I was talking about 'paying' for it through something else.

 

You seem to be trying to argue with me about something, but I have no idea what that's supposed to be. I'm not pushing any particular point of view; I'm just asking questions.

 

The difference here is between a character who has a "magic" autofire bow, and a character which is so skilled with a bow that he can pick up any bow on the battlefield and use it like it were magic. The character is paying the extra point to be able to do something that anyone else with that bow cannot do. This is no different than a character buying +5" Leaping (in a wuxia-style campaign) to also be able to do something that no other character can do.

Do you somehow think I believe that people should get the Naked Advantage for free? Nothing could be farther from the truth. I think the Naked Advantage, if anything, should be more expensive than even the rules say it should be. I'm trying, through examples, to explore how much (if any) I might want to increase the cost.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Doug Limmer

I hate to phrase it this way, but did you read what I wrote? I specifically mentioned that you don't pay with points; I was talking about 'paying' for it through something else.

Did you read what I wrote?

 

You do not pay point for weapons in Heroic Level games. You can walk into K-Mart in a Heroic Level game and BUY a bow, or a rifle, or a pistol, or a hunting knife. Heroic level games work like the real world where everything is purchased with money, gold, shells, credits, or whatever else your game's economic system uses.

 

I will avoid the rest of your post, because apparently you just want to get rude for no reason.

[Killer Shrike]

Doug, why do you not think it would warrant a FOCI? Its been a fairly accepted practice of defining a FOCI as 'any mundane item of a type', often called a focus or object of opportunity. I can recall seeing this practice in play as far back as 12 years ago. In FREd its detailed on pg 188 at the top of column 2.

 

Granted, FREd directs one to use Inaccessible vice Accessible to reflect the difficulty of effectively stripping the user the FOCI, but Monolith would be well within his rights to override this detail if he wished (the example refers to a more vague class of objects than a 'Bow', which is fairly specific).

 

Also, if he did take Any Bow as an OIF and then further specified 'Any Bow and any Arrows' as applies the Multiple Focus rules, he would have a pretty strong case for downgrading the arrangement to an OAF when taken as a whole.

 

 

As far as the flexibility of the Naked Power Advantage, it is certainly pretty strong. Its primary purpose is to add the very flexibility in character design that you note. Should it be watched? Most definitely. Should its cost be changed? Hmm....If you really wanted to assess a premium; i.e. make it cost more to balance its flex, I would suggest adding either a flat +1/4 to the multiplier of the Advantage (ie NPA Autofire x5 would be +3/4, etc) or if thats not enough for you then perhaps double the advantage which would discourage bigger Advantages from being taken 'naked'.

[Fur Face]

Nakedness in advantages/limitations

 

One of the problems with naked advantages is that they can be offset by naked limitations (Should the bow be OIF?) I can put autofire 1-3 (+1/4) and offset it by Only same target (-1/4). So, as long as can keep pulling the strings on the bow, I can automatically get three arrows into one target, if I roll low enough. In essence, not only have I just increased the Active Point threshold for free (if yall have one), but I am getting an incredible skill for free.

 

In older Dark Champions supplements, they used to stack these in order to get a balacnce, something like "Autofire 1-5 any handgun, up to 2D6 RKA or 60 Active Points, 0 End.

[in essence, +1 of 60 points, so it now costs 60 points]

Offset by OIF (any handgun of opportunity -1/2), total 30 points.

 

So you now have someone who can shoot any handgun like its an uzi, except it costs 30 points. It doesn't matter if the character is Heroic or Superheroic, because he just paid points for a power that simulates an incredible skill. It's not OAF, because it can be used with any handgun, so the character doesn't deserve the cost savings of an OAF, but it does need to have a handgun, so OIF if used.

 

If you feel this is too cheap and could be unbalancing, then have the character take the OIF limitation without getting the cost savings, or whatever house rule you desire. In the previous discussion, I would not allow someone to take "bows only" and then an "Foci" of any sort, because to me that is double counting the same thing, and would give an incredible skill for free.

 

Just my 2 cents I guess. Use or abuse at your discretion.

[Victor]

I haven't seen this mentioned as a balancing factor yet, but isn't the character with the naked AF3 advantage going to be paying END on his STR for each shot? I don't recall off the cuff whether the "only pay END for STR once per phase" rule comes into play here or not, by my gut says I'd charge END per attack if it's being done with a power advantage, rather than a skill/maneuver. It's going to get tiring fast, if the character has to sustain that rate of fire.

 

It's also going to use a lot of arrows, which (although "technically" recoverable) are considerably less recoverable when used in combat, than when fired at a bale of hay with a target hung on it. Starting with a generous 30 arrows, one would hope that liberal use of AF3 would leave the character with less ammo and more concern for it's supply, after a combat or two. If nobody is keeping track of ammo, there's a problem right there.

 

Also, the character with the naked AP advantage would have to use more STR to get extra DC's when employing the AP.

 

As for the example above, where the naked AF3 is applied to the multipower, it won't work with the explosion attack... area effect and several other advantages increase the cost of autofire by +1, and it (the naked advantage) wasn't bought that way.

[mrjamesbond]

Re: Need Help With Naked Advantages/Adders

 

Okay, how about 20 STR to 20 STR Armour Piercing

 

A) Take the value of the existing power:

20 STR costs 20 points (10pts free for starting value + 10 spent by player)

 

Work out how much power will cost with advantage:

AP is a + 1/2 advantage so 20 STR AP = 30pts (20 x (1 + 1/2))

 

C) Take and subtract A) from it:

30 - 20 = 10pts to be able to apply the AP advantage to 20 STR

 

PLEASE do an example using ADDER instead?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

007