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Possession


Sean Waters

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FRED suggests using a mental transformation to do 'Mind Transference' (p.154). How would you build this?

 

Couple of specific problems:

 

1. You almost certainly have different mental stats from the target - how do you make sure you are in there?

 

2. How do you transfer memories back from the target that you acquired while possessing it?

 

3. What would you define the healing method as?

 

Any help gratefully received.

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Re: Possession

 

1. You almost certainly have different mental stats from the target - how do you make sure you are in there?

you define the Transformation to give the target your mental stats, Psych Lims, etc.

 

2. How do you transfer memories back from the target that you acquired while possessing it?

Mind link with the target? Or transform to self, linked to return to your body, defined as giving you memories of what happened while you were possessing the individual?

 

3. What would you define the healing method as?

Depends on the special effect. Demonic possession might heal via prayer, exorcism or holy water. Loa possession via voudoun rituals typically ends when the sun rises (and can only be done by night). A mind-transfer machine might have to be used again to undo the effect, or another Mental Transform might expel the possessor.

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you define the Transformation to give the target your mental stats, Psych Lims, etc.

 

 

Mind link with the target? Or transform to self, linked to return to your body, defined as giving you memories of what happened while you were possessing the individual?QUOTE]

 

Thank you for your thoughts. Trouble with Mind Link is it doesn't really transfer memories, and transforming your original body so that it has the memories you have now has its own problems: at some point hat transform is going to heal or be reversed...I suppose you could use some variation on telepathy...or handwave that bit...

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Re: Possession

 

Trouble with Mind Link is it doesn't really transfer memories' date=' and transforming your original body so that it has the memories you have now has its own problems: at some point hat transform is going to heal or be reversed...I suppose you could use some variation on telepathy...or handwave that bit...[/quote']

 

So, define an Advantage for the Mind Link and Link it to the Transform.

 

As for the Transforming yourself being reversed, define something unlikely enough that if it's happening to you, losing a few memories is probably the least of your worries. Since it's really just a special effect, one can justify a less typical "heal" method than would pass muster if the Transform was a more attack-oriented effect.

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Re: Possession

 

How about this:

 

A Major Transform: Target becomes target but with your mind and memories. Side Effect/linked Major Transform/Multiform: Your body gets the mind and memories of the Target. Buy the powers you want to transfer as UBO.

 

Technically, your character is still your character but under the delusion that he is the target. Similarily, the target is still the target but under the delusion that he has your mind. Hand-wave this technicality and just say that you've transferred minds. :)

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Re: Possession

 

How would you model something along the lines of Azazel, from Fallen (with Denzel Washington) or, for a RPG reference, a Shedim (In Nomine)???

 

The demon possesses people, but does not have a phisical body of his own and would have serious problems when not in a vessel (maybe even die).

 

Please have in mind that I'm a huge noob, so if its not too much trouble, the more specific the better. I might play with this character! :o)

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Re: Possession

 

How would you model something along the lines of Azazel, from Fallen (with Denzel Washington) or, for a RPG reference, a Shedim (In Nomine)???

 

The demon possesses people, but does not have a phisical body of his own and would have serious problems when not in a vessel (maybe even die).

 

Please have in mind that I'm a huge noob, so if its not too much trouble, the more specific the better. I might play with this character! :o)

 

I would start by making a character that is Invisible/Persistent/ Always On, Desolidification (not to magic/holy)/Persistent/Always on, Mind Control /Affects Physical World/No Range and Clinging (affects Physical World) only to cling to the target of Mind Control. You can fill in the rest from there, I expect.

 

Is that ungodly expensive? Yeah. It's a powerful effect, it should be expensive.

 

You can build Deadman the same way, essentially.

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Re: Possession

 

FRED suggests using a mental transformation to do 'Mind Transference' (p.154). How would you build this?

Couple of specific problems:

 

1. You almost certainly have different mental stats from the target - how do you make sure you are in there?

I'm not quite sure I understand. The Transform would move your mental stats (EGO, INT) and any PsychLims to your target.

 

2. How do you transfer memories back from the target that you acquired while possessing it?

I think you are overthinking this. Just rule it as SFX of the transform. After all, if someone uses a Transform on you to turn you into a rabbit will you need some kind of memory Transform to remember your bunny-life?

 

3. What would you define the healing method as?

This is also gonna be ruled by SFX. Demonic possession will require an exorcism. The prototypical brain-switcher machine possession will require the subjects to go back through the brain-switcher. A possession-amulet may only require the amulet to be removed. Etc.

 

Possessions can be lots of fun as plot devices. Nothing better than a player looking around and screaming "YOU DID WHAT WITH MY BODY!?! I DON'T WEAR SPEEDOS AND I DON'T EAT SQUID!"

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Re: Possession

 

I would start by making a character that is Invisible/Persistent/ Always On, Desolidification (not to magic/holy)/Persistent/Always on, Mind Control /Affects Physical World/No Range and Clinging (affects Physical World) only to cling to the target of Mind Control. You can fill in the rest from there, I expect.

 

Like someone stated, Mind Control has the problem of not lasting much, right? How would the transform work? can someone post it please?

 

Thanks!

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Re: Possession

 

Like someone stated, Mind Control has the problem of not lasting much, right? How would the transform work? can someone post it please?

 

Thanks!

 

There are rules for Mental Transform under "Transform" in FRED. Essentially, you do a BOECV Major Tranform (transform target into slavishly loyal individual, or something like that), with the Transform healing (ending) when the possessing character leaves the target's body. It's not cheap, either.

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Is that ungodly expensive? Yeah. It's a powerful effect' date=' it should be expensive.[/quote']Interesting. In MnM it's a near base cost power (2 or 3 per rank, book not on hand right now - ave power is 2) to leave your body behind and enter the mind of another as the controlling entity if they fail a Will save against the ranks of your power. As long as you're conscious, you can stay there unless forcibly ejected through some other power.

 

Why should it be any more expensive than Energy Blast or Mind Control?

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Re: Possession

 

Interesting. In MnM it's a near base cost power (2 or 3 per rank, book not on hand right now - ave power is 2) to leave your body behind and enter the mind of another as the controlling entity if they fail a Will save against the ranks of your power. As long as you're conscious, you can stay there unless forcibly ejected through some other power.

 

Why should it be any more expensive than Energy Blast or Mind Control?

 

Because it effectivly removes you from the field of battle?

 

My method is this:

 

EDM (Mind Scape)

Mind Control (Xdim to earth/telepathic)

Clairsentience Extra Dimesion (to earth) through eyes

 

All linked together, for a Mental Probe use telepathy

 

Again this will be expencive once you start realising how many of your powers/Skills (all dex & most combat) require UBO & XDimensional

 

Personaly I would like to see a new power called possesion, probably at 10 points per die, mental power. Character disapears and takes over the body, all powers that are physical are at there disposal, as are any of there abilities.

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Because it effectivly removes you from the field of battle?
And Mind Control and Energy Blast don't?

 

Entangle removes you in one shot, and is fairly cheap. Likewise Darkness, Mind Control, Telekinesis (to throw you a few miles away), and so on.

 

I would model it with Mind Control for the possesion, and then figure out something to do with your own original body.

 

There's a variation on Mind Control (or was in past editions) that only gives control of the body, and not of the mind. That is the version I would use in a possession power.

 

It could be a Mind Control that leaves your body lying there (a major limitation), lets them possess your body (a side effect limitation - effectively they get [bodily] Mind Control on you equal to what you got on them), causes your body to merge into theirs and no longer exist ( a linked extra dimensional movement power ), or the merging of two physical forms into one (something complex that I've never seen modeled well in Hero).

 

When the Mind Control fails or is eventually resisted - you're effectively pushed out of the possession.

 

Assorted add ons could be used to delay this - an ego drain, supression, or whatever fit your given special effect.

 

 

Normally, possesion should be cheaper than Mind Control - you're effectively limited (under the typical special effects for it) to one victim at a time, and you lose access to your own body while doing it.

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Re: Possession

 

Because it effectivly removes you from the field of battle?
And Mind Control and Energy Blast don't?

 

Entangle removes you in one shot, and is fairly cheap. Likewise Darkness, Flash, Mind Control, Telekinesis (to throw you a few miles away), and so on.

 

You may then be able to do something in your future actions to overcome these, or you may not - but the same can be said of possession.

 

I would model it with Mind Control for the possesion, and then figure out something to do with your own original body.

 

There's a variation on Mind Control (or was in past editions) that only gives control of the body, and not of the mind. That is the version I would use in a possession power.

 

It could be a Mind Control that leaves your body lying there (a major limitation), lets them possess your body (a side effect limitation - effectively they get [bodily] Mind Control on you equal to what you got on them), causes your body to merge into theirs and no longer exist ( a linked extra dimensional movement power ), or the merging of two physical forms into one (something complex that I've never seen modeled well in Hero).

 

When the Mind Control fails or is eventually resisted - you're effectively pushed out of the possession.

 

Assorted add ons could be used to delay this - an ego drain, supression, or whatever fit your given special effect.

 

 

Normally, possesion should be cheaper than Mind Control - you're effectively limited (under the typical special effects for it) to one victim at a time, and you lose access to your own body while doing it.

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Re: Possession

 

SO, I decided to give this whole possession thing a try. SO I got a ghost (desolidification + invisibility) with EDM (i really like the idea of mind scape. It just sounds fair), but i used Transform instead of mind control.

 

What I was wondering is how his characteristics would be. It doesn't make sense for him to have STR. HOw much should I give him? What about DEX, CON and BODY? What would be reasonable for a ghost?

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Re: Possession

 

How would some of you write this up as a new and independant power unto itself?

 

It has been proposed in other threads that "body-jacking" is one of those thin areas that the current Hero System does not cover very well, or if it does it does if in a very complicated and/or overly expensive way.

 

So, within that, what would this new power look like?

 

I'm very curious, because at it stands I'm not very confident in the whole custom power creation business.

 

TB --Resident MassHole

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Re: Possession

 

Interesting. In MnM it's a near base cost power (2 or 3 per rank, book not on hand right now - ave power is 2) to leave your body behind and enter the mind of another as the controlling entity if they fail a Will save against the ranks of your power. As long as you're conscious, you can stay there unless forcibly ejected through some other power.

 

Why should it be any more expensive than Energy Blast or Mind Control?

 

I think it would be because in Hero a transform effect would be semi-permanent, whereas a Mind Control would not be likely to last more than a few seconds or minutes at most (you can roll frequently to escape).

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Re: Possession

 

I'm not quite sure I understand. The Transform would move your mental stats (EGO' date=' INT) and any PsychLims to your target.[/quote']

 

...but it seems a little strange it would be easier to take over the mind of a smart person than a stupid one (in the latter case you would have to increase their INT, which would take more points to transform).

 

I think you are overthinking this. Just rule it as SFX of the transform. After all' date=' if someone uses a Transform on you to turn you into a rabbit will you need some kind of memory Transform to remember your bunny-life?[/quote']

 

On the bunny point, a physical transform would leave you with your own mind (ARG! Four legs? And what am I going to do with these ears!), a mental transform would leave you with your body but give you the mind of a bunny (and wouldn't it be amusing, in some cases, to see if anyone noticed...). If they used a spirit transform...I'm overthinking this again, aren't I?

 

Seriously though, no you wouldn't, but that is because you are using the same brain. In this instance you would be another mind entirely that is made to look and feel like yours and when that mind heals the copy you just goes away. Technically you need telepathy to transfer thoughts back to yourself as transform srpecifically can not be used against yourself.

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...but it seems a little strange it would be easier to take over the mind of a smart person than a stupid one (in the latter case you would have to increase their INT' date=' which would take more points to transform).[/quote']Why? A mental transform would be vs EGO. INT has nothing to do with it. If you transform a bunny into a rhinocerous you don't need to "buy up" any STR or anything. That is what the Transform does. That is why Major Transform is so darned expensive...its REALLY powerful.

 

On the bunny point, a physical transform would leave you with your own mind (ARG! Four legs? And what am I going to do with these ears!), a mental transform would leave you with your body but give you the mind of a bunny (and wouldn't it be amusing, in some cases, to see if anyone noticed...). If they used a spirit transform...I'm overthinking this again, aren't I?
Yup! :) The nice thing about Major Transform is that you can define it to do ANYTHING. In this case we are simply defining:

 

(33) Possession: Major Transform 3d6 (Transfer My Mind into the Body of Another, Possessor Making EGO Roll to Return to Body), BOECV (Mental Defense applies; +1) (90 Active Points); Eye Contact Required (-1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Returns to Original Body if Possessed Body is Stunned/Unconscious (-1/4)

 

Youare dumping 30 AP per d6 into this puppy. Depending on your GM there are two side considerations:

 

1) Dual Transform (Mind Swap): Transform Your Mind into Someone's Body and Transfer Someone's Mind into Your Body. Since you are a willing target this is not really much of a brainer...simply tack on a x2 (or even x3) END to represent the casting upon yourself. The issue with this now is that some lumm-lumm is now in possession of your meat. Could lead to problems...or some wonderful roleplaying possibilities. But I don't think this is really what you are looking for. Having someone else have control of your body is a -1/2 (as per 4th Ed's Ultimate Mystic Possession...which I think is a good value for the limitation).

 

2) Lock the Little Creep Away: You stuff the targets EGO (consciousness) into a corner of his mind and lock the door. In this case, I would increase the heal to a -3/4 and make it Target or Possessor can heal with a successful EGO Roll (as a GM I would allow you to make an EGO roll each turn and use your result as a modifier for the target: you make it by 1 he's -1 on his roll, you miss by 3, he's +3 for his roll). Remeber, your body is now a husk. Hope its well hidden.

 

Seriously though, no you wouldn't, but that is because you are using the same brain. In this instance you would be another mind entirely that is made to look and feel like yours and when that mind heals the copy you just goes away. Technically you need telepathy to transfer thoughts back to yourself as transform srpecifically can not be used against yourself.
Again. I believe you are overthinking the construct. The wonderful thing about a Major Transform is that your don't need to worry about too much of this. That is what a Transform does. Are we grabbing some effects that could be similated with powers? Yep. However, the SFX IMHO warrant it. Also, the AP / d6 is already REALLY high. If a GM enforced any kind of AP limits on powers you are only looking at a 2d6 Transform (assuming 60 AP as a typical limit). Considering averages:

 

3.5 per d6, 2d6 per phase = 7 EGO per phase.

Average normal EGO is 10 (which you need to double).

20 / 7 = 3 phases.

 

You are going to blow three entire phases just to achieve a possession. I think you have already paid plenty for the effect you are looking for.

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Re: Possession

 

Why? A mental transform would be vs EGO. INT has nothing to do with it. If you transform a bunny into a rhinocerous you don't need to "buy up" any STR or anything. That is what the Transform does. That is why Major Transform is so darned expensive...its REALLY powerful.

 

It has always been my understanding that you do need to 'buy up' characteristics and powers that the original target didn't have or didn't have enough of...I don't have the book with me, but there is an example about transforming retainers into gargoyles, from memory. You don't have to spend more points on the power, but you have to affect an increased BODY total to imbue the transformed target with the new or improved abilities. I suppose you would justify that in my example as having to expand the brain capacity of Captain Thicko before you could inhabit that cramped cranium...

 

Nothing to do with this thread really, but it reminds me of an interesting villain/scenario idea: your villain has 1d6 major transformation, anything to anything (+2), with two linked transforms of equal magnitude so that he can change body and mind and soul all at once (so about 105 points). It only works on ants (bit of a drawback, you may think, but read on...). He is a bit of a stay at home loser geek, but has discovered he can transform the denizens of his ant farm into...well anything he likes. After a bit of experimentation with huge ants (maybe our heroes rescue him from one of his early experiments without realising he did it...), he starts building supertypes loyal to him from ants. It takes ages to imbue a fully fledged super...hours or days, but then you have a loyal super that is going to last about a month before it turns back into an ant.

 

Antmaster (or whatever he calls himself) lacks great imagination, so he tends to copy existing heroes and villains or film and TV monsters. He causes havoc, with all these new villains and monsters turning up, getting captured then vanishing from custody (reverting to ants), not to mention his ability to create 'evil twins' of heroes - including the player characters. Technically he could make them as powerful as he likes but, because of his limited imagination, tends to make them as powerful as he percives them 'in real life'.

 

The whole thing could be quite a challenge, but the 'master villain' behind it is not an all-powerful demi-god, just a bit of a loser who doesn't have a social life or a great deal of foresight. This would work well as an insertion to other scenarios, to foreshadow as he is perfecting his technique, followed by a big finale as he gets bolder.

 

The denoument would (hopefully) involve trying to reform his social conscience rather than just dropping him out of a window: can you imagine what a force for good he could be: Giant Ant Construction Company...useful ally...

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Re: Possession

 

 

What I was wondering is how his characteristics would be. It doesn't make sense for him to have STR. HOw much should I give him? What about DEX, CON and BODY? What would be reasonable for a ghost?

 

The question here is what kind of stats he would have against somebody who could affect his real body. Say, if someone had the power to physically enter the MindScape.

 

My advice? DEX=INT, BODY, CON=EGO, STR=PRE, and define the "Mind Scape" as being a dimension where everyone's characteristics are reset this way.

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Re: Possession

 

The question here is what kind of stats he would have against somebody who could affect his real body. Say, if someone had the power to physically enter the MindScape.

 

My advice? DEX=INT, BODY, CON=EGO, STR=PRE, and define the "Mind Scape" as being a dimension where everyone's characteristics are reset this way.

The Ultimate Mentalist (from 4th Ed) has a whole slough of these fun little bits. It's a wealth of fun mentalist facts! There is even a section on dreamscape/astral space/etc that gives you some rules/guidelines on what your physical stats would be in astral space (and its very similar to this). It also give rules/etc on how to perform mental combat (EGO vs EGO, not the EGO Attack/Mind Control type).

 

You should even be able to lay one up pretty cheap.

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Re: Possession

 

How would some of you write this up as a new and independant power unto itself?

 

It has been proposed in other threads that "body-jacking" is one of those thin areas that the current Hero System does not cover very well, or if it does it does if in a very complicated and/or overly expensive way.

 

So, within that, what would this new power look like?

 

I'm very curious, because at it stands I'm not very confident in the whole custom power creation business.

 

TB --Resident MassHole

This is a tough call but to me the essential thing is that it has to cost somewhere in the range between Mind Control and Transform. First, do we agree on that? Because that provides at least the utility cost we want to aim for. We need a reference point.

 

Given that, in any case, I think doing what you ask is a difficult proposition, specifically because (as this thread demonstrates IMHO and as my experience, having had to deal with this, bore out) the SFX for "body-jacking" are rather disparate - is it based on control of the spirit or the brain? What defenses does one have? And herein I think we discover, as it were, that this is why we have Mind Control as a separate power from Transform and that each one works well, and that, finally, it is very hard to decouple these concepts from body-jacking.

 

But decouple it I'll try, just for the fun of your challenge.

 

First, I would declare that we call the power Possession as I think it's a more neutral/generic term than body-jacking.

 

Possession, like Transform, has 3 targets - spirit, mind, or body. Spirit possession indicates the person's drive and emotions change (essentially) but they are intellectually and physically the same person, they don't know that something else is controlling them. Mental possession is essentially a brain transplant in terms of how we think of it; the target is essentially a shell for the new mental presence, and the new mental presence has none of the knowledge/mental skills of the target given they are displacing those abilities. Body possession means that the body itself has been altered or changed somehow, and the new being may possess the mental and spiritual components of the original person, but those have been fused and over-ridden with a controlling presence that is physically manifest in the person. Of course, there can be crossed forms; although we may think of vampiric transformation as spiritual, it has both a body and spirit component, with (at least using the Buffy the Vampire Slayer model) only the memories and knowledge intact.

 

Possession is 15 points per d6 for one form (body, mind, spirit). Each additional form is a +10 adder to the total cost (not per dice); even if all 3 forms are taken, there must be some sort of weakness or "opening" for the possession, some link back to the original person. This works against Power Defense by default, and the transformation takes place against EGO or BOD but must be declared when bought and cannot be changed. The possession takes place when the target suffers damage at 2x the targetted characteristic, as with Transform.

 

Each possession of course allows the possessor to control the target, but important nuances apply for each form.

 

Spiritual possession allows the possessor to have full control over all facets of the target, however any mentalist may Mind Control the target to resist the possessor, and mental commands with the target's "original" self are allowed; however, the mentalist must reach the subconscious level of the target as that is the only level remaining in the possessed form. Also, the target's Psych Disads remain intact and the Possessor must make an EGO vs EGO roll to overcome any hesitation by the possessed to perform as desired.

 

Mental possession also of course allows for full control but as the mind itself is switched, all INT and EGO based skills are not available to the controlling party. Importantly, the memories and knowledge of the target are also displaced, as are all Psych Disads. This does not mean the possessor may not leverage powers and the like; it is presumed that the possessor will learn the body's abiltiies after "reaonable" (per GM, SFX, and the power constuctioN) time. However, unlike Spiritual, the mind of the target is gone and may not be reached by Mind Control or other means.

 

Body possession allows the possessor to physically control the body entirely, without mental or supernatural inteference. However, without Telepathy or other skills, the possessor is not necessarily aware of the target's abiltiies. Like with supernatural, the mind of the target may be reached by any mental means by others, but unlike that, only superficial contact is necessary as the mind is fully aware and intact. It is important to stress that unlike with mental and supernatural control, there is no way for the possessed to act physically independently, even if their mind may so act, regardless of Psych Lims or such. The possessor, though, may not apply any abiltiies which require the specific knowledge or mental skills of the target, much as with mental possession. A very important difference with body possession is that whereas both spiritual and mental possession do allow the possessor to be targeted mentally (instead of the possessed, in the case of spiritual possession), this does not apply with body possession. The possessor's mind is not specifically/necessarily linked in a way that it can be targetted, providing a particular advantage to physical possession.

 

Mixing these forms gives the most advantageous of each, except that when combining mental or spiritual with the body form the posssessor may be targeted mentally.

 

When possessing a target, the possessor has no control over any former or native body they may normally or previously have had. Normally, possessors are bought with a normal native body or as figures that have no corporeal body (with appropriate Disads and possibly Desol or EDM to represent that state); in either event, they may return to their native form simply by abandoning the possessed form, but once that happens, they must perform the Possession over again. To freely switch between forms is a +5 Adder for every x2 forms they may Possess. For example., for +5 they may switch between one other possessed form (presumably the most recent, although this should be dictated by SFX and power definition) and their native form only, with no other forms/possessed being possible to switch among without performing the Possession Attack again on them (and in that case, their other possessed form would then be dropped from this "pool"). For +10 (instead of +5) they could possess up to 3 other forms plus their native form, switching among those. It should be noted though that possessed forms do revert back to the control of the original target as soon as the possessor switches away from them. For a +1 Advantage, the possessor may render all other forms into a catatonic or similar state when not directly possessing them. For a +2 Advantage, with GM permission, the possessor may actively possess all forms at one time.

 

To break the possession, normally DIspel or a similar Adjustment power would be used. However, both mental and spiritual forms grant additional methods of breaking the possession. With either, the possessor may be (assuming sufficient power is applied) Mind Controlled into depossessing (normally this would be considered an action the possessor is violently opposed to, although of course SFX and common sense should apply). WIth the spiritual form, the possessed target may overcome the possessor if assisted with an EGO vs EGO roll; for this to happen, the mind of the possessed must be reached either via Telepathy or some similar circumstance. Once reached, it may simply be triggered if the possessed is willing to attempt to break out, as this represents the "waking up" of the possessed consciousness. Naturally, most often, the possessor will ensure sufficient EGO to overwhelm targets. Other characters may assist the possessed so long as they have Telepathy or Mind Link to the possessed by adding their EGO rolls as Complementary rolls.

 

---------------------------------------

 

Certainly, this is imperfect. It's just a starting point, some ideas. I don't know that it's necessary as I think it can be modelled with other powers and I'm not so sure it is cost-prohibitive as such. But anyway, for anyone's consideration.

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