Possession

[zornwil]

Re: Possession

 

The ultimate fix it power in champions, transform.

 

How i despise the uses its put to merely to shore up the delusion that hero can do "anything".

 

Why bother with growth or shapeshift or mindcontrol, just group them under transform.

 

That being said, what do you suggest?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

The ultimate fix it power in champions, transform.

 

How i despise the uses its put to merely to shore up the delusion that hero can do "anything".

 

Why bother with growth or shapeshift or mindcontrol, just group them under transform.

 

...EB = transform target to same thing with some burn damage...

 

...Invisibilty = AE transform, targets to same thing but they ignore you...

 

OK, it dose get misused, but possession is a trick specifically mentioned in FRED, so is kind of official.

 

Problem with possession is the potential for wrecking a game. Swapper puts his head in a major villain brick and he is a brick mentalist with twice the power of anyone else and none of the villains suspect he is a traitor. We shouldn't be asking how it works, but if it should be allowed to.

 

Getting away from transform (I do take your point...), perhaps the way to do it is with Mind Control and Clairsentience, side effects you pass out. That sounds far more controllable and balanced in game terms...

[S41NT]

Re: Possession

 

Zornwill, I did a Possession power based on transform and it's almost the same as your idea of spirit possession!

 

I honestly think Transform is the way to go. Ultimate Mentalist suggests it and from that, all you have to do is weight the advantages and limitations that make you Possession different than the Mind Transfer from the book.

[zornwil]

Re: Possession

 

Zornwill, I did a Possession power based on transform and it's almost the same as your idea of spirit possession!

 

I honestly think Transform is the way to go. Ultimate Mentalist suggests it and from that, all you have to do is weight the advantages and limitations that make you Possession different than the Mind Transfer from the book.

Good to know I wasn't so off the deep end!

 

I would tend to agree with you that Transform or some combo of that with other powers as you suggest per reasoning by effect makes the most sense. I didn't get the Ultimate Mentalist (well I did buy several PDFs and file them away, I need to go back and see if I picked that up...I'm so bad about accumulating things I don't read), but am looking forward to the 5th version whenever that comes out.

[Rapier]

Re: Possession

 

I completely agree that Transform can be hideously overused/abused/beaten down and kicked to the curb. However, there are certain concepts/effects that to me, scream Transform.

 

 

My bellweather is, really, if when defining the power in my head I use the verb "transform" (or sometimes "switch," "change" or "alter"). In this case, I want to actually alter the target so that I have control of their body (KINKY!). To me, that begs for Transform. To do it without Transform would require a vast array of powers (Mind Control, Clairsentience, Mind Link, Desol, etc) that IMO do not really get the effect we are looking for.

 

Not to poo-poo your theory at all. I completely agree that I have seen LOTS of Transforms in my day that are an end-run around other powers (for instance, I saw one just a week or so ago that was a Transform into a mental slave...I changed it to Mind Control), however, in this case I think Transform is the right power.

[Rapier]

Re: Possession

 

We gamed all weekend (Fri-Sat and part of Sun). Friday we played Champions and Sat-Sun was Hero. I've had a mini-plot running around in my head for the past few months about some kind of Blood Mage Serial Killer.

 

Based primarily on this thread, I had a stroke of genius...a true epiphany, if you will (can you tell I'm pleased with myself?). My serial killer had the power I posted above (with a few extra lims/advantages). He possessed a person (a housewife, a phone company guy and an aide for the mayor so far), then used that person to commit his murder. The Hero's closed in pretty close to the last victim (being murdered/sacrificed by the aide). The possessor took control of one of the heroes briefly to make his escape.

 

I've got to say that the Possession using Transform works beautifully. It's simple, concise and easy...and it does exactly what I wanted.

 

Oh don't worry, I'm not giving anything away. The heroes have discovered all of this. I was careful not to give anything away. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the help and inspiration. I've been bouncing around waiting to spread the news and had to wait until we had gotten into the plot. THANKS!!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

We gamed all weekend (Fri-Sat and part of Sun). Friday we played Champions and Sat-Sun was Hero. I've had a mini-plot running around in my head for the past few months about some kind of Blood Mage Serial Killer.

 

Based primarily on this thread, I had a stroke of genius...a true epiphany, if you will (can you tell I'm pleased with myself?). My serial killer had the power I posted above (with a few extra lims/advantages). He possessed a person (a housewife, a phone company guy and an aide for the mayor so far), then used that person to commit his murder. The Hero's closed in pretty close to the last victim (being murdered/sacrificed by the aide). The possessor took control of one of the heroes briefly to make his escape.

 

I've got to say that the Possession using Transform works beautifully. It's simple, concise and easy...and it does exactly what I wanted.

 

Oh don't worry, I'm not giving anything away. The heroes have discovered all of this. I was careful not to give anything away. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all the help and inspiration. I've been bouncing around waiting to spread the news and had to wait until we had gotten into the plot. THANKS!!

 

I'm very pleased for you, and, yes we can tell that you are pleased with yourself. Sounds like a fun and challenging game.

 

One question: how do you handle range? Say The Evictor, or whatever he is called possesses Shirley Strange, then steps through a teleport gate to the other side of the country to commit an atrocity of some sort. In the ensuing battle he decides to flit out and leave Shirley to her fate. Not quite sure how your mechanic works, but it seems that he returns if KO'd ...which I would say was an advantage, BTW. His mind is then travelling maybe a thousand miles or more. For villains and plot devices, no problem. For players...

 

Obviously you are outside of your transform range and have no LOS. You might need some sort of specialised Mind Link or even Mind Scan to get home again.

[Rapier]

Re: Possession

 

I'm very pleased for you, and, yes we can tell that you are pleased with yourself. Sounds like a fun and challenging game.

 

One question: how do you handle range? Say The Evictor, or whatever he is called possesses Shirley Strange, then steps through a teleport gate to the other side of the country to commit an atrocity of some sort. In the ensuing battle he decides to flit out and leave Shirley to her fate. Not quite sure how your mechanic works, but it seems that he returns if KO'd ...which I would say was an advantage, BTW. His mind is then travelling maybe a thousand miles or more. For villains and plot devices, no problem. For players...

 

Obviously you are outside of your transform range and have no LOS. You might need some sort of specialised Mind Link or even Mind Scan to get home again.

I calculated the range just like you do any regular power (5" per AP, in this case he gets just over a mile in range).

 

The character has a moderate amount of Mind Scan. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle him getting KOd yet. I'm going to have to give it some thought. Snapping back to your body does seem like an advantage. It also adds some difficulty if he is "dispossessed" when outside the range of his body. But then again, knowing he has a limit I don't think he would often allow himself to get close to his max range (if he can avoid it). Although, it being a villain I don't really need to worry (strictly speaking) about how he gets back to his body. But it may become important for the heroes to stop him. I'm definately gonna have to give it some thought.

 

Any ideas?

[Vorsch]

Re: Possession

 

Possesion is a power, just like EB and deserves its own entry.

 

The original game designers stated themselves that alot of basic powers were not included, some have been added over time. But i feel a possession power with adders, like invisibility or desolid is the best way to handle this.

 

Mind control could have a pupeteer type advantage, gain control of target use powers, just like telepathic ( which is a lim in my view ).

[zornwil]

Re: Possession

 

I took my initial stab. Would be interested to see others'. Even if I'm not sold it should be a distinct power.

[Crissa]

Re: Possession

 

Well, I figured it'd be Mind Control... Because that's what your attempt is to do; to control the subject's actions.

 

The other effect is to hide in the subject somehow. Desolid is one way - though that doesn't make you invisible in any way, and how would you price 'only for occupying the space a character already occupies?' Because that seems a serious discount as you're actually not really doing much you could with the normal price of desolid. Also, this doesn't make you untargetable by normal powers, even.

 

If you're using mindscapes ala telepathy, the extra dimentional movement seems to match it... But I don't know how any of that works or the cost thereof. The Character Creation tome seemed unhelpful; I'd thought it'd have more of the mentalist powers in it.

 

Using Transform seems kinda... I dunno; 'special effect:you're not targetable' seems kinda like a biggie, and it doesn't really have a mechanism for the target to recover. Of course, Transform is like the highest cost of the attack powers.

 

I was thinking of a character (an amorphous creature) that could stick people inside them to protect them. Then I was wondering how you'd price that at all (usable by others, range:touch, special effect:they're inside?). Or of a mecha character, that can let someone else 'drive' and use their attack skills with the mecha's powers... (usable by others, not while using themself, range:touch, special effect:they're inside?)

 

-Crissa

[Doc Samson]

Re: Possession

 

Holy thread necromancy Batman!

 

My thoughts on Possession...

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67350

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1518367&highlight=possession#post1518367

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1460981&highlight=possession#post1460981

[Crissa]

Re: Possession

 

There were very few threads on the subject ^-^; Also, search engines tend to choose the earliest thread rather than the most recent.

 

Your second thread seems to have the best solutions.

 

But what about a character that can willingly lend their body as a defense or transport? Or retaining your powers (their powers) in such a situation?

 

-Crissa

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Possession

 

Arcane Adversaries has a spell write up for the Demonologist that uses Duplication to temporarily turn someone else into a copy of him. Perhaps a mental stats-only version of that with the "Original character is incapacitated and helpless while duplicate exists" limitation from the Astral Form build and a mental breakout roll like for Mind Scan would do the trick?

[nexus]

Re: Possession

 

One of the main issues with "Possession" is defining it. It's not just one effect in the various source materials where it appears but a very variable effect. In some cases, it does seem like "just" powerful mind control even to the point the victim can fight it but in other's it's more like the victim is a total puppet or even being worn like a suit of clothing by the possessing entity or even no longer exists as a free willed entity. Maybe there isn't a base way to model Possession in Hero System since it's just a special effect really.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

The effect of possession, generally, is that you get full control of another character, access to their senses and possibly their memories. You might actually BE them (in which case you probably need a combination of multiform to become them and another power to get rid of the original/transfor the original to your old body - perhaps transform) or you might just be an intangible presence that holds the reins - in which case you care practically indestructible - they body you ride might get hurt, but you won't - which is probably closer to mind control+clairsentience(+telepathy if you want memory access).

 

Which ever way you do it it is (rightly) horribly expensive, if you want it to be as effective as a lot of genre tropes.

[nexus]

Re: Possession

 

Possession can vary allot from story to story, setting to setting. In some cases the controller being "inside" the victim and having access to their memories is more or less a special effect. In game terms, it could be handled by a massive mind control with extended duration. Mechanically it's the target acting to fufill the orders given them to the best of their ability, special effectwise the Possessor is controlling them. Pepper the Mind Control with Advantages and Limitation to taste.

 

Access to the victim's senses is tricker. It can be handwaved in some cases such as when the control is broken the Possessing being only have a general recollection of what the target did while controlled. Clairsentience is an option of course even Limited Retrocognition only to know what the victim experienced while under the control (this is a possible option to allow for access to memories too).

 

The possesor being literally "inside" the target (or merged with them to a point that distinction is practically nil) might be a case for that old workhorse EDM which requires some GM fiat as always and Transdimensional on at least some of the above abilites, expensive but as has been said rightly so

 

These are just some of the ways I've tried to handle "possession" as a special effect when its come up and I'm not advocating them as the "one true way". It would (maybe should) be possible to come up with a generic new power to cover the idea since it's applicable enough to fit into the generic mold of Hero System's core Power system as "possession" can mean allot of thing but phrasing what the ability grants the character with it by default and pricing could be tricky.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

I tell you what I have seen as a build and am really not keen on - it might even be in the rule book - desolid+clinging as a way of being 'inside' the possessed character.

 

Sheesh.

 

Shake them hard enough and you break the possession?

 

I'd rather handwave, or better yet, have a +0 modifier to desolid that allows you to merge with someone. Or EDM. That could work. It is not the points, it is the principle.

[nexus]

Re: Possession

 

I tell you what I have seen as a build and am really not keen on - it might even be in the rule book - desolid+clinging as a way of being 'inside' the possessed character.

 

Sheesh.

 

Shake them hard enough and you break the possession?

 

I'm not fond of that build either to tell the truth.

 

Though it does make the expression "Shaking the Hell out of someone" wonderfully possible.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

[nexus]

Re: Possession

 

Great, now I want to write up a sect of two fisted fighting clerics with a martial art designed around the purifying power of pugilism because some folks need the Hell beaten out of 'em.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possession

 

Great' date=' now I want to write up a sect of two fisted fighting clerics with a martial art designed around the purifying power of pugilism because some folks need the devil beaten out of 'em.[/quote']

 

Actually I can see that one getting a LOT of converts