Schmucks?

[caris]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Again keep in mind that we only have write ups for 25 characters' date=' 7 of which are over 500 points. That is very few compared to the 110 or so we know exist in the US alone. Also keep in mind that Vanguard, the CU Superman, was killed in the Battle of Detroit. They're out there. Just because we don't yet have their write ups doesn't mean they don't exist. I think that's what most of us have been saying all along.[/quote']

I think the lack of write ups is the heart of their complaints. It isn't enough for them to be told that the Eternal Tulku, when lucid, can kick Takofanes undead hiney. They have to see the mechanics so that they can play out the fight. I don't understand, why they need this, but if as a group the people that want these write ups are willing to pay enough to make it profitable for Hero Games, go for it.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

so, Whamme, are you one of the people that have anything to do with the GGU PBEM world or those involved with creating and running it? This is a two part question depending on the answer to that one.

 

edit: Well, might as well note it now. Basically, have you seen the point totals of some of the villains of that whole continuity? Have ya told Worldmaker they're pointlessly "bloated" just to be better than the PCs yet?

 

Does it occur to you that maybe there are so many villains of so many different point values (from Bulldozer to Firewing) so as to provide examples of villains to be usable and challenging for /different levels of play/, after all, while you seem to be opposed to the notion, the book itself assumes different levels of play exist, and that just the concept of xp alone are going to take you to them.

[Vorsch]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The premise of the game is that your characters are the ones who stop all the threats to the world.

 

If you play in DC or MU you know that these powerful groupd exist, even if you never meet them.

 

If Destroyer turns up, who stops him. GM characters? cos theres no champions.

 

And i support the guy who said Dr D just walks down the street in NY and waits for heroes to blast. Dr D requires no thought hes just to powerful as is. Hes Juggernaght with silversurfer EBs.

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The premise of the game is that your characters are the ones who stop all the threats to the world.

See, this is where the "No one over 350 points" go wrong. The actual premise is that your characters stop all the threats they are potentially capable of stopping.

 

Depending on your power level, these might be major threats to the world, or threats to your city, or even neighborhood. A super hero universe is an ecology of different levels. You don't see Spiderman going up against Thanos much, nor do you see Thor tangling with Doctor Octopus reguarly.

 

If you play in DC or MU you know that these powerful groupd exist, even if you never meet them.

Yes, but at least they exist in those univereses so the Spidermans and Daredevils of the world don't have to deal with Doctor Doom.

 

Whereas the radical "350 pointers only" insist that no heroes should exist more powerful than the PC's, even if the PC's are at a power level in which they are ill equipped to handle the threats appropriate to more powerful groups. They oppose them even being made a part of the background. See the comment made by a poster above that Doctor Destroyer and Takofanes were stopped just fine with just people as powerful as Kinetix and Foxbat around.

 

If Destroyer turns up, who stops him. GM characters? cos theres no champions.

If Destroyer personally shows up and your a 350 pointer you're most likely not going to stop him, just as Daredevil has little to no chance of stopping Doctor Doom.

 

The thing is, most writers have the sense not to put Spiderman in such a situation. And most GM's should as well when it concerns PC's not powerful enough to face challenges like Destroyer himself.

 

And i support the guy who said Dr D just walks down the street in NY and waits for heroes to blast. Dr D requires no thought hes just to powerful as is. Hes Juggernaght with silversurfer EBs.

Yup, in a world consisting solely of 350 point or less heroes Destroyer can do this and the heroes probably couldn't do a thing to stop him.

[nexus]

Re: Schmucks?

 

This is starting to sound more and more like a democrat vs republican political debate.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Schmucks?

 

This is starting to sound more and more like a democrat vs republican political debate.

 

Not really, as I haven't seen any open charges of lying, treason or incompetence flying around on this thread, and I think everyone on this thread is more articulate than W.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

When haven't they been successfully opposed in the official CU? They appear' date=' and dozens of Supers come out of the woodwork. It's a pretty common occurence in comics as well. Whenever a certain villain appears Cap grabs 20 Avengers or what have you.[/quote']

 

The thing is, we have no information on who opposed them. However, the fact that they *were* stopped indicates that there *are* heroes considerably more powerful than 350 points out there.

 

( a point that Vibora Bay supports )

[Rene]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Arg, lets not start the "Destroyer = Thanos" BS again.

 

Yes, Dr Destroyer can utterly dominate all current NPC heroes, utterly. Yes, Dr Doom is actually challenged by his usual opposition.

 

This is not because Dr Destroyer is more powerful, its because Dr Doom has far superior opposition.

 

Are you always this rude?

 

I think Dr. Destroyer is BOTH, he is vastly more powerful than Doom and has vastly inferior opposition. Doom isn't that powerful in a personal, physical, sense.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Are you always this rude?

 

I think Dr. Destroyer is BOTH, he is vastly more powerful than Doom and has vastly inferior opposition. Doom isn't that powerful in a personal, physical, sense.

 

Except that he *is*. He has taken orbital reentry impact before. He has hauled out countless gadgets from the suit.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The thing is, we have no information on who opposed them. However, the fact that they *were* stopped indicates that there *are* heroes considerably more powerful than 350 points out there.

 

( a point that Vibora Bay supports )

Have you seen Vibora Bay? I was going to ask if anyone had seen how powerful the heroes in that book are. Mine hasn't arrived yet and I was really hoping to see some power diversity in that book. If you have it please give us some info.

[Titan59]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think the lack of write ups is the heart of their complaints. It isn't enough for them to be told that the Eternal Tulku, when lucid, can kick Takofanes undead hiney. They have to see the mechanics so that they can play out the fight. I don't understand, why they need this, but if as a group the people that want these write ups are willing to pay enough to make it profitable for Hero Games, go for it.

 

At last, the voice of reason! I'd certainly consider buying it. Anybody else willing to nudge the good people at DoJ in the right direction?

[nexus]

Re: Schmucks?

 

At last' date=' the voice of reason! I'd certainly consider buying it. Anybody else willing to nudge the good people at DoJ in the right direction?[/quote']

 

*shrug*

 

I said awhile ago that its not that big a deal to me if they do or they don't but I just hope the keep it to one book focussed on that. I don't get why the stats have to be seen since I don't run fights between NPCs.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Have you seen Vibora Bay? I was going to ask if anyone had seen how powerful the heroes in that book are. Mine hasn't arrived yet and I was really hoping to see some power diversity in that book. If you have it please give us some info.

 

Lets put it this way: there are two 700+ point heroes in it ( though admittedly, I think there might be an error in the writeup for the one ).

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Except that he *is*. He has taken orbital reentry impact before. He has hauled out countless gadgets from the suit.

Let's be honest. Even in the old Marvel Superheroes game Dr. Doom wasn't that powerful. He had a Monstrous FF, Incredible Armor, an Amazing Kinetic Bolt and Magic Bolt, and could fly at Excellent speed; topped off with 140 Health. If it wasn't for the big force field the FF could have easily toasted him. Dr. Doom was defensively powerful but fairly average offensively.

 

Dr. Destroyer, on the other hand, is sitting with Unearthly Armor and a Shift X primary attack. He would toast Dr. Doom in the Marvel Game.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

There is no way to create balanced heroes of that power level on that few points. Period.

 

Note the term "balanced." Yeah, you can create someone who can do umpteen dice damage, or break the lightspeed limit. . . but will they be able to do much of anything else??

 

It's pretty easy to have them do both, AND have reasonable defenses. I think that's balanced.

 

Balance is in the eye of the beholder.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

*shrug*

 

I said awhile ago that its not that big a deal to me if they do or they don't but I just hope the keep it to one book focussed on that. I don't get why the stats have to be seen since I don't run fights between NPCs.

We want to see NPC write ups for the same reason that Green Lantern shows up in a Batman comic book sometimes: because it adds story diversity. Using your definition we don't need to see write ups for the Champions either, or any of the other 20 published heroes, but it's still nice to see them. Write ups give us ideas on how certain characters should be expanded. Seeing a 700 point hero gives us an idea of what our characters should look like at the level. Granted we have Galactic Champions for that but it's still nice to see what a 700 point hero should look like in a not-so magic rich environment as the 31st century.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And I still find the term "point bloat" offensive. Megavillains are *supposed* to be world-shaking powerful.

 

...which does not require any given point total. For an example in the opposte direction, compare Galactic Champions villains to the normal sort.

 

I call it point bloat, because it could easily be done with a reduced scale. A reduced scale that would simplify character design.

 

350pts wasn't beginning level with 4th. It now is, and every single @#$%ing thing in the CU is more powerful. Point bloat. Everything could easily be scaled back without disturbing the hierachy.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Lets put it this way: there are two 700+ point heroes in it ( though admittedly' date=' I think there might be an error in the writeup for the one ).[/quote']

That sounds cool. I hope my copy arrives tomorrow. If there are math errors then that's what Hero Games gets for not playtesting it.

[nexus]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Not really' date=' as I haven't seen any open charges of lying, treason or incompetence flying around on this thread, and I think everyone on this thread is more articulate than W.[/quote']

 

In the sense that both sides are very condescending to the other, seem somewhat obsessed with the idea they have to absolutely right and there is a monolithic opinion that the other side holds and no margin for change or moderation. And some people seem to be taking it as a personal insult that others like something different from them or hold a different opinion, it seems quite a bit like a political debate.

 

But, I have to agree with you on the more articulate issue.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

so, Whamme, are you one of the people that have anything to do with the GGU PBEM world or those involved with creating and running it? This is a two part question depending on the answer to that one.

 

edit: Well, might as well note it now. Basically, have you seen the point totals of some of the villains of that whole continuity? Have ya told Worldmaker they're pointlessly "bloated" just to be better than the PCs yet?

 

Does it occur to you that maybe there are so many villains of so many different point values (from Bulldozer to Firewing) so as to provide examples of villains to be usable and challenging for /different levels of play/, after all, while you seem to be opposed to the notion, the book itself assumes different levels of play exist, and that just the concept of xp alone are going to take you to them.

 

I play and GM there. I am _not_ one of the designers of the world as a whole.

 

I know exactly why there's a wide spread of point values. Varying levels of opposition are good. However, all of those values are higher than they (ideally) should be.

 

I am not dogmatically insisting that my way is the one true way. It is the people who insist that there must be 700 point ultra heroes, and that there is no other option that could ever be the case and I must be a horrible, horrible person for disagreeing with them, that are being dogmatic.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

so do you think the GGU is point bloated, yes or no?

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

No, we're just insisting on plausibility. Either you have heroes capable of stopping the top tier villains that exist in the world, or you have those top tier villains dominate the world.

 

Whereas the other side is insisting you can get by with only 350 point heroes or less only in a world where the likes of Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, and Takofanes roam, and still deny any of them ultimate victory.

 

Only one of these positions is tenable. The other one leads to a world that makes no sense.

[nexus]

Re: Schmucks?

 

We want to see NPC write ups for the same reason that Green Lantern shows up in a Batman comic book sometimes: because it adds story diversity. Using your definition we don't need to see write ups for the Champions either' date=' or any of the other 20 published heroes, but it's still nice to see them. Write ups give us ideas on how certain characters should be expanded. Seeing a 700 point hero gives us an idea of what our characters should look like at the level. Granted we have Galactic Champions for that but it's still nice to see what a 700 point hero should look like in a not-so magic rich environment as the 31st century.[/quote']

 

Well, its nice to get a few example characters or examples of archtypes, but I've never seen the point to lots of hero write ups. I don't know about the "should" look like. I've noticed most characters with experience look somewhat different from a character just built on alot of points, but hey DOJ wants to print it and people want to buy it cool. I just don't want things cluttered up with write ups I'm never going to use.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

to quickly say now to an answer that would be "well just scale them back", quite honestly, a lot of comic book megavillains would require an insane number of points to approximate.

 

Which thus leads to requiring fairly buff heroes to realistically oppose them.

 

Which, you know, is how the comics indeed work, where the megavillains tend to find regular opposition from the higher end types.

 

said another way, from the way the marvel supers rpg Doom is being described.. that's not so much the guy who's armour has taken shots from Thanos and who's mind has resisted the Overmind.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

No, we're just insisting on plausibility. Either you have heroes capable of stopping the top tier villains that exist in the world, or you have those top tier villains dominate the world.

 

Whereas the other side is insisting you can get by with only 350 point heroes or less only in a world where the likes of Doctor Destroyer, Mechanon, and Takofanes roam, and still deny any of them ultimate victory.

 

Only one of these positions is tenable. The other one leads to a world that makes no sense.

 

Actually, some on "one" side are saying that they want the allies book now, and some on "the other" say they don't mind waiting, or that they don't care. There's also a whole "what is point bloat" and "what is possible" thing going on, plus some random personal attacks. Kind of funky.