Schmucks?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm not "heavily involved" in the GGU to the extent you imply; I have zero ability to affect the power level of that world. More to the point, the GGU is not the issue here. Anyone can build whatever they want for their private game world.

 

The CU is the world that says how Champions games should be run. it is the sample, it is the starting point.

 

I don't actually care about how DOJ decides to handle the CU, btw. It just pisses me off when people start insisting that there _must_ be 800 point heroes, when I can see clearly how it could work otherwise...

 

I'm only here because I _really_ hate people who insist their way is the only true way. I've been trying to be dogmatic to show how freaking annoying it is, and apparently I've suceeded.

 

I'm sorry Pendaran. I got caught up in the act. Enjoy writing up your Champions characters at whatever point values you think suitable... regardless of how much I may disagree. Because your view is valid...

 

...apparently, unlike mine.

 

Whatever.

 

Um, exactly how do you 'clearly' see how it could work otherwise?? There are villains in the Champions setting who cannot be opposed by any existing heroic characters. Regardless of your opinions on whether they should exist or not, they *do* exist.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Um' date=' exactly how do you 'clearly' see how it could work otherwise?? There are villains in the Champions setting who cannot be opposed by any existing heroic characters. Regardless of your opinions on whether they should exist or not, they *do* exist.[/quote']

 

non-800pt characters who can kick their asses?

Simply ignoring an issue that matters only to a handful of fans who are already so heavily into the setting they'll buy stuff anyway instead of creating Elmonsters?

 

Actually. Know what would be really cool?

 

The Extremes! A team of overall weak characters... with singular mighty powers. (I might just start writing up my vision of these guys shortly... watch this space)

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually' date=' some on "one" side are saying that they want the allies book now, and some on "the other" say they don't mind waiting, or that they don't care. There's also a whole "what is point bloat" and "what is possible" thing going on, plus some random personal attacks. Kind of funky. [/quote']Actually, there's at least one faction, epitomized by WhammeWhamme, who insist that any heroes at a power level above the PC's need not exist at all, no matter how low in power the PC's are to the highest tier villains in the world.

 

Not that they don't need to be written up, but their existence is not even something that needs to be implied. That the PC's, even at 350 points, can keep the likes of Doctor Destroyer and Isvatha V'han from ruining or conquering the world. And to say that such NPC's need to exist in order for the sake of versimilitude is to somehow render the PC's totally useless.

 

This is a position totally detrimental to having a world that's at least semi-plausible.

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I don't actually care about how DOJ decides to handle the CU' date=' btw. It just pisses me off when people start insisting that there _must_ be 800 point heroes, when I can see clearly how it could work otherwise...[/quote']All right. Explain how the Marvel Universe sans every hero more powerful than the New Warriors would manage to keep the multitude of villains and menaces which threaten Earth under control.

 

More importantly, explain how it manages to do so regularly, and in a plausible manner.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Actually, there's at least one faction, epitomized by WhammeWhamme, who insist that any heroes at a power level above the PC's need not exist at all, no matter how low in power the PC's are to the highest tier villains in the world.

 

Not that they don't need to be written up, but their existence is not even something that needs to be implied. That the PC's, even at 350 points, can keep the likes of Doctor Destroyer and Isvatha V'han from ruining or conquering the world. And to say that such NPC's need to exist in order for the sake of versimilitude is to somehow render the PC's totally useless.

 

This is a position totally detrimental to having a world that's at least semi-plausible.

 

Plausablity is worthless. Playability is far more important.

 

And 350 points is NOT low powered unless the characters are intentionally designed to be low powered (which you can do with any point value).

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Simply ignoring an issue that matters only to a handful of fans who are already so heavily into the setting they'll buy stuff anyway instead of creating Elmonsters?

 

I'm sorry, didn't you just go on at length how you found other views valid and were only being insulting to try and show people how bad it is?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

All right. Explain how the Marvel Universe sans every hero more powerful than the New Warriors would manage to keep the multitude of villains and menaces which threaten Earth under control.

 

More importantly, explain how it manages to do so regularly, and in a plausible manner.

 

I'm not even sure who the New Warriors _are_.

 

That said, 350 is plenty for accurate translations of, say, the X-men.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm sorry' date=' didn't you just go on at length how you found other views valid and were only being insulting to try and show people how bad it is?[/quote']

 

Their views are valid. But they're probably not good for DOJ if implemented.

 

Creating 800pt heroes to fill perceived gaps in the CU is a noble pastime... but it is not _necessary_.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

let me clarify, you just said that views opposed to yours are held by only a handful of people, and if adhered to would do something as ruinous to the game as fill it with Elminster clones.

 

Explain how this is neither insulting, nor denigrates the view opposed to your own. And how stating the above works at all with taking you seriously when you yet say you find the viewpoint valid.

 

edit: you go so far as to mention that whatever their issue might be, they and it should simply be ignored to solve all problems.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Plausablity is worthless. Playability is far more important.

 

And 350 points is NOT low powered unless the characters are intentionally designed to be low powered (which you can do with any point value).

 

Too many things in this arguement that depend on personal definitions of terms. It doesn't mean much to argue over whether 350-pt characters are "low-powered" when people can't even agree on what "low-powered" means, or even whether it's an absolute or relative thing, or on what the scale is, or...

 

Anyway, as to plausability...IMO, an implausible setting IS an unplayable setting. See my .sig for more details.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I suppose it's worth mentioning, as per Vibora Bay, do you feel that DOJ are well on their way to ruining themselves then? Having npcs with point totals going well into the "what's bad for DOJ" range.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 point characters are worthless. They aren't even good enough to clean my character's jock strap with their tongues. Any 350 point character should just be thrown away and burned.

 

That 350 point Apollo? Not only was he cheesy, but he was illegal as well (Aiding primary characteristics doesn't increase their figureds). Not only that, he was a puss, too.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm not talking about his RPG stats. I'm talking about what he's actually done in the damn comics.

 

And no way in hell is 30d6 ShX.

You are correct. According to the conversion written by George McDonald Shift X tops at 26d6. I guess that makes Dr.Destroyer Shift Y.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

350 point characters are worthless. They aren't even good enough to clean my character's jock strap with their tongues. Any 350 point character should just be thrown away and burned.

 

That's all, folks!

 

(cue music)

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

*shakes head* That's just silly. The.. um.. jock strap thing. That.

 

350 point characters are just fine for something like the 80s Teen Titans, or the New Warriors, or X-Force, or the 60s X-Men when they were still all Charles' students, or certain street level kinds of things, or people like Hawkeye and so forth.

 

Entirely viable and fun to play such kinds of supers on that kind of operating level.

 

edit: I'm playing one in a city defender team style campaign right now, enjoying it just fine.

 

edit edit: And yes, before someone asks, there are npcs more powerful than us by several leagues floating around in the background somewhere being the reason why Takofanes and co haven't romped all over Earth. It doesn't really matter because they and we operate on a level that doesn't really have anything to do with each other, we not being a team of global superheroes.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Schmucks?

 

just curious--is there a middle ground in this debate? Is there an NPC hero point level above 350 that would be somewhat combat effective(without massively tweaked writeups) in teams against the higher level villains in the CU, and still acceptable/tolerable to those who prefer lower-powered play?

 

I think an NPC hero team of 5-8 members, built using the "very high powered superhero" parameters(600 points(plus maybe up to 99xp), 120 AP caps, etc), could provide a reasonable explanation for why the Takofanes and Mechanons of the CU don't just overrun everything. When you don't want them around, just say they're out in space or in another dimension or another mission saving the world or something.

 

Eventually, after several years of gaming, the PC team would be the equal of that team, and be doing the same kind of missions.

 

Nobody gets uptight if they play a certain other game system and occasionally run across a heroic NPC a few levels above them...

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Judging by the responses, no, apparently there isn't one, if your 350 point team isn't the reason the sun rises and sets, you're having the wrong bad fun, or not scaling your world to "realistic" levels. Or contributing to "point bloat". Or, I believe the phrase went something like... are part of a small handful of fans who's demands should be ignored because they'll otherwise fill the setting with "Elmonsters", and will make DOJ make publishing decisions that will be bad for the company.

 

I suppose in a few years when HERO goes defunct we can point to Vibora Bay as the setting where it all done went wrong.

[Starlord]

Re: Schmucks?

 

That said' date=' 350 is plenty for accurate translations of, say, the X-men.[/quote']

X-Men of what era? I submit that you can build most any mid- to high-powered Marvel/DC characters on 350 pts from a 'conceptual' standpoint. However, no way does 350 come close to being able to approximate what most of those heroes have been proven to be able to do say, at least 3-5 times, in the comics.

 

NOTE: I usually completely ignore OHOTMU assertions, they're proven to be WAY off the mark (admittedly so by its own editors), particularly as the power levels increase. Not even close with regards to Class 100 strength characters.

[Vorsch]

Re: Schmucks?

 

non-800pt characters who can kick their asses?

Simply ignoring an issue that matters only to a handful of fans who are already so heavily into the setting they'll buy stuff anyway instead of creating Elmonsters?

 

Actually. Know what would be really cool?

 

The Extremes! A team of overall weak characters... with singular mighty powers. (I might just start writing up my vision of these guys shortly... watch this space)

 

They already exist, their the X-Men.

[Vorsch]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Champions simulates comics

 

Champions provides game world.

 

Comics Heroes are actually more powerful than the the vilains,

 

Champions heroes are weak any way you wish to describe it.

 

Game setting problem.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

X-Men of what era? I submit that you can build most any mid- to high-powered Marvel/DC characters on 350 pts from a 'conceptual' standpoint. However, no way does 350 come close to being able to approximate what most of those heroes have been proven to be able to do say, at least 3-5 times, in the comics.

 

NOTE: I usually completely ignore OHOTMU assertions, they're proven to be WAY off the mark (admittedly so by its own editors), particularly as the power levels increase. Not even close with regards to Class 100 strength characters.

 

They already exist' date=' they're the X-Men.[/quote']

 

I must admit, I am not the greatest comics guru. Most of what I know of the fine detail comes second hand.

 

Hence I don't think I could build a "non-conceptual" X-man, on any point value.

 

I may indeed have missed some important details that would require something extreme.

 

But everything I know (and I've read a fair few conversions) makes me think that 350 (plus maybe a little experience) should be easily possible.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

just curious--is there a middle ground in this debate? Is there an NPC hero point level above 350 that would be somewhat combat effective(without massively tweaked writeups) in teams against the higher level villains in the CU, and still acceptable/tolerable to those who prefer lower-powered play?

 

I think an NPC hero team of 5-8 members, built using the "very high powered superhero" parameters(600 points(plus maybe up to 99xp), 120 AP caps, etc), could provide a reasonable explanation for why the Takofanes and Mechanons of the CU don't just overrun everything. When you don't want them around, just say they're out in space or in another dimension or another mission saving the world or something.

 

Eventually, after several years of gaming, the PC team would be the equal of that team, and be doing the same kind of missions.

 

Nobody gets uptight if they play a certain other game system and occasionally run across a heroic NPC a few levels above them...

 

My suggested middle ground was non-high points high powered heroes. At least that way players can say 'ooh. I wanna build my 350pt hero like THAT!'.

 

Because as a newbie, it _really sucked_ to look at characters built on tons of points and think "ooh, cool". This is why this is important.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

*shakes head* That's just silly. The.. um.. jock strap thing. That.

 

350 point characters are just fine for something like the 80s Teen Titans, or the New Warriors, or X-Force, or the 60s X-Men when they were still all Charles' students, or certain street level kinds of things, or people like Hawkeye and so forth.

 

Entirely viable and fun to play such kinds of supers on that kind of operating level.

 

edit: I'm playing one in a city defender team style campaign right now, enjoying it just fine.

 

edit edit: And yes, before someone asks, there are npcs more powerful than us by several leagues floating around in the background somewhere being the reason why Takofanes and co haven't romped all over Earth. It doesn't really matter because they and we operate on a level that doesn't really have anything to do with each other, we not being a team of global superheroes.

 

I think you may have mistaken the number 3 for the number 2. They do look alike.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

let me clarify, you just said that views opposed to yours are held by only a handful of people, and if adhered to would do something as ruinous to the game as fill it with Elminster clones.

 

Explain how this is neither insulting, nor denigrates the view opposed to your own. And how stating the above works at all with taking you seriously when you yet say you find the viewpoint valid.

 

edit: you go so far as to mention that whatever their issue might be, they and it should simply be ignored to solve all problems.

 

How is "you have a minority opinion" insulting? How is that denigrating?

 

Right. Now the contentious bit : "ruinous to the game/Elmonster".

 

When I say their view is valid, I mean it's cool that they want to have it in their games. As has been stated, however, what makes it into published canon actually matters. If things that turn people off HERO make it into print, less people buy the game, and DOJ risks going the way of it's predecessor.

 

Anyone nitpicking setting details is obviously an obsessive fan (and I mean this is the kindest way imaginable), and thus is going to be bloody hard to turn off from the game.

 

Someone getting fed up with the UberNPC heroes their GM is embarassing them with, OTOH, might just quit.

[nexus]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Speaking strictly for myself, I consider the scale of of the campaign. I try not to create a great deal of characters that are extremely more developed than the PCs, and generally a number that are below with most being about even. I like to assume that players are about the average, maybe somewhat below or above, for the campaign world (based on the tone of the game). One of the things that drew me to Hero was that it wasn't the default assumption that the Player Characters had to start off at the bottom of the barrel. For example, in my Seeds of Change campaign, I'm not planning on populating the world with a lot of 1400 point characters, though there will likely be some character which who are over 750, if for no other reason than points don't always equal effectiveness and I don't make ruthlessly point efficent NPCs.

 

Penderan, I think you might be fighting a battle that isn't nessecarily being held on this thread. It sounds like you've had some bad experiences before on this topic and its made you somewhat sensitive. That's entirely understandable, but you seem to be taking it a little personally.

 

Edit: Personally, I liked the way Dr. D was presented in fourth. A "High End" version and a "Low End" version. It gave more of a sense of freedom to customize the world to your players and preferences. It would great if all the "mega villains" could be presented in that sort of format, but I understand the printing costs would be ridiculous.