Schmucks?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

WhammeWhamme,

Thanks for the reasonable reply to my post. I shall do my best to respond in kind.

(I also read a more recent post from you in this thread, so I will probably end up responding to both.)

 

There are a bunch of issues flying around this thread, so I am going to try to point out my position.

 

1) I have no problem at all with characters starting at 350 points. (I did not really see the need for the jump up from the 4th ed. starting points, other than to allow starting characters to have more background and diversity. As far as just increasing raw power, I don't really see the need.)

If I were starting up a new campaign tomorrow, I might very well compromise by saying that the limit was 300 points as far as anything remotely related to combat, and that up to 50 additional points could be spent on background skills, contacts, bases, or, if you wanted to play a "brand new" character and that sort of thing didn't fit your concept, you could either just take fewer Disadvantages, or "bank" the points so that you could easily add the things above as they naturally came up in the campaign.

I don't in any way feel that your desire to run a 350 point (or lower) campaign is not "okay".

 

 

Then we have nothing to argue about.

 

2) All of the above, however, is only based on you, or I, coming up with our own home-brewed campaign.

 

As far as the official CU, 350 pts. is a perfectly good place to start. You could also start at a lower point value if you were somewhat selective as to who your players faced.

I don't think anyone is "forced" to build 350+ characters, or that the Major Threats should be toned down to the level of 350 point characters.

 

But, for this to work, a little common sense must be applied.

 

To use an example from another game and genre, when you are creating your first level fighter, you know darned well that you are not the guy who is going to tackle an Ancient Huge Dragon. That in no way implies that there should not be Ancient Huge Dragons in the game. Someday, your character may be mighty enough to tackle one. If not, then your character may have to deal with the results of the actions of one. (Rescue people trapped in damaged buildings, fight off an attack by Orcs that were emboldened when the dragon burned down part of the city wall, whatever.)

 

Okay, there is ONE thing... 1st level PC's are _nothing_ like 350pt Champions Characters. 350 pt Champions characters can break the _light_ barrier in atmosphere, they can (etc, etc... they can do most anything....).

 

Non-combat capabilities equivalent to those of "high end" comic book characters can be casually stapled on. They can deflect the asteroids, they can evacuate a city with ease, etc. (okay, this does require specific builds - I'll call these 'Epic' 350 pters).

 

It is _combat capabilities_ (and Life Support... blasted pts increase) that occupy the vastest majority of a "Much Greater than 350 point" characters point expenditure. (Okay, and _sometimes_ skill lists so long you WILL forget at least half of them in play)

 

There is nothing wrong with that. It is just that the official universe, as I see it, does not seem logically consistent without the implied presence of some more powerful NPC's.

Not in the interest of "point bloat", but because there is currently no real reason why Dr. Destroyer should only strike every 10 years.

 

Point Bloat = there is no reason for Destroyer to be so @#$%ing powerful. It's dice for the sake of having more dice than the PC's (or rather, than the villains that outclass them that outclasse them that outclass THEM...). It's the bloody arms race taken far along, with the end in sight. Spending literally thousands of points is excessive. There is no need to do that just to create a superworld.

 

Or is it because, right now, you are basically "assuming" that if the 350 point heroic NPC's can "handle" the massively powered villainous NPC's, it means that your decision that no PC needs to go above 350 points is valid?

And that the presence of higher point NPC's will undermine that assumption?

 

I don't mean that as an attack on you, I just don't know why you seem to take this so personally.

 

KA.

 

I'm saying that most times you can't build a concept on 350, it's because you need to be better than a specific other character. You can _do_ what your character _does_ on less.

 

So the only reason you "need" more than 350 is because someone has arbitrarily decided you do.

 

And the massively (over)powered villains are a problem, not some sacred cow.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And if it were a disagreement over play styles, that would be the end of it.

 

However, there is a greater issue at stake: the presence of NPC heroes in canon material. On that matter, there are only two option: they either get put in, or they don't. They is no middle ground.

 

Whats more, the canon material establishes a setting already, from which one can draw conclusions that can be directly supported and which are not subject to "not in my campaign" arguments ( as such arguments are already based on modifying or throwing out the canon material ).

 

Or, to put it more bluntly: no, I will *not* just agree to disagree, if so agreeing amounts to conceeding your own position on the matter.

 

I'd be happy to see hero teams that can defeat DD and co. I'd like them to be 350 points, and an example of how you can build powerful characters without using scads of points. I think that's something the CU is in desperate need of.

 

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

So' date=' what about increasing the suggesting Standard Superhero to 450 or even 550? Would that be preferable?[/quote']

 

As far as I know, they've _already_ done this. This gave us 5th ed baselines.

[KA.]

Re: Schmucks?

 

-snip-

Okay, there is ONE thing... 1st level PC's are _nothing_ like 350pt Champions Characters. 350 pt Champions characters can break the _light_ barrier in atmosphere, they can (etc, etc... they can do most anything....).

 

Non-combat capabilities equivalent to those of "high end" comic book characters can be casually stapled on. They can deflect the asteroids, they can evacuate a city with ease, etc. (okay, this does require specific builds - I'll call these 'Epic' 350 pters).

 

It is _combat capabilities_ (and Life Support... blasted pts increase) that occupy the vastest majority of a "Much Greater than 350 point" characters point expenditure. (Okay, and _sometimes_ skill lists so long you WILL forget at least half of them in play)

 

Point Bloat = there is no reason for Destroyer to be so @#$%ing powerful. It's dice for the sake of having more dice than the PC's (or rather, than the villains that outclass them that outclasse them that outclass THEM...). It's the bloody arms race taken far along, with the end in sight. Spending literally thousands of points is excessive. There is no need to do that just to create a superworld.

 

I'm saying that most times you can't build a concept on 350, it's because you need to be better than a specific other character. You can _do_ what your character _does_ on less.

 

So the only reason you "need" more than 350 is because someone has arbitrarily decided you do.

 

And the massively (over)powered villains are a problem, not some sacred cow.

 

Okay, I think you have now restated your position enough times that is has finally sunk in.

I mean that literally. It is not that you have been unclear or anything, it is just that I was not getting out of it what you were putting in.

I think we are finally on the same page.

 

1) I don't think that some of the NPC Villains need to be as powerful as they are. I kind of liked a bit less of a gap between Normal, and Competent, and Superhuman. To me this inflation could eventually cause problems with the SPD chart. When, someday, every super has the points to afford a 12 SPD to go with their other powers, how will you differentiate "fast" from "slow".

 

So I am not really advocating "More Power".

What I was responding to was the idea that if you do keep the existing villains as written, they should have won by now, based on the NPC Heroes I have seen.

 

I can see that making extremely powerful NPC Heroes would not really help with point bloat at this point, but on the other hand, I don't think it would change things either way.

 

2) As far as changing the power scale, I think that cat is already out of the bag. I am not saying that it is "wrong" to change it, but I don't think it could possibly be scaled back before 6th ed. (Whenever that is.) I think it would be a bold move, even then, to scale things back a bit, but I doubt if it will happen.

 

Anyway, mostly just wanted to let you know that I finally get what you are talking about.

 

KA.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I've posted a few of them. One I would not permit in most of the games I GM' date=' because (a) I dislike charaters that have to charge up and ( I don't run 350 point Galactic Level games. Here is Solarian

"Cheesy" is in the eye of the beholder, and he could be made more powerful; this was just an attempt to match the observed performance of Apollo from the Authority.

 

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!! No, that really is very funny, and pretty much legal - we could quibble over the construction of the charge up multipower, but you've already acknowledged that is something you dislike. I'd say point proved.

 

I'm kind of scared to ask but have you ever built a 'powerful' hero on 700+ points...

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm kind of scared to ask but have you ever built a 'powerful' hero on 700+ points...

 

I have a few 1000+ point supers running around in my games. I don't object to high point totals, just to the claim that you can't legally build high power heroes on low point totals. In a few days I plan to post some 700+ point versions of my New Circle Team, a tribute team that should be interesting. They are not meant as an example of what can be done mechanically, but even the 350 point versions could do fairly well against most Mystic villains.

Except Takafones, who should have destroyed all life on Earth on his first day.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'd be happy to see hero teams that can defeat DD and co. I'd like them to be 350 points, and an example of how you can build powerful characters without using scads of points. I think that's something the CU is in desperate need of.

 

 

There is no way to create balanced heroes of that power level on that few points. Period.

 

Note the term "balanced." Yeah, you can create someone who can do umpteen dice damage, or break the lightspeed limit. . . but will they be able to do much of anything else??

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And I still find the term "point bloat" offensive. Megavillains are *supposed* to be world-shaking powerful.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

There is no way to create balanced heroes of that power level on that few points. Period.

 

Note the term "balanced." Yeah, you can create someone who can do umpteen dice damage, or break the lightspeed limit. . . but will they be able to do much of anything else??

 

Yes, they will. Just not all at once. Their powers will end up with a Combat Mode, an Investigative Mode, and an Exploration Mode. Unless you do someone who has everything through a focus, in which case you have more room to work. The mechanics are not hard to manage.

 

The GM's judgement calls are what place most limits on character power at 350 points, not the rules as written.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And I still find the term "point bloat" offensive. Megavillains are *supposed* to be world-shaking powerful.

 

Takafones stated goal is to wipe out all human life on Earth. As his character is written, there is no way to stop him from casually doing so with no chance of Heroic interference save GM's call. I don't know about point bloat, but it's not my preferred style of setting design.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Yes, they will. Just not all at once. Their powers will end up with a Combat Mode, an Investigative Mode, and an Exploration Mode. Unless you do someone who has everything through a focus, in which case you have more room to work. The mechanics are not hard to manage.

 

The GM's judgement calls are what place most limits on character power at 350 points, not the rules as written.

 

. . .Multiform *really* should be a Stop Sign power. . .

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Takafones stated goal is to wipe out all human life on Earth. As his character is written' date=' there is no way to stop him from casually doing so with no chance of Heroic interference save GM's call. I don't know about point bloat, but it's not my preferred style of setting design.[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, the same could be said of *anyone* with a VPP; All you need is 1 pip RKA, NND ( Force Field, Force Wall, or Inanimate ), Does Body, 1 Hex AoE, Megascale 10000 km. Thats less than 50 active points.

 

Likewise, someone could transform the entire planet into something different for even fewer points.

 

This is where common sense comes in.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Unfortunately, the same could be said of *anyone* with a VPP; All you need is 1 pip RKA, NND ( Force Field, Force Wall, or Inanimate ), Does Body, 1 Hex AoE, Megascale 10000 km. Thats less than 50 active points.

 

Likewise, someone could transform the entire planet into something different for even fewer points.

 

This is where common sense comes in.

 

Common Sense = GM's call.

 

Which is a key point in Hero system.

 

Incidently, Tak could destroy all life on Earth without even getting into hyper-efficient mode. VPPs are a pain in the arse, and Summon more so, from a suspension of disbelief point of view.

[Starlord]

Re: Schmucks?

 

And again' date=' the point still stands: even if all you count is Takofanes and Dr Destroyer, thats still enough for the question to be valid, as one megavillain that cannot be successfully opposed is all it takes to end the world.[/quote']

When haven't they been successfully opposed in the official CU? They appear, and dozens of Supers come out of the woodwork. It's a pretty common occurence in comics as well. Whenever a certain villain appears Cap grabs 20 Avengers or what have you.

[Starlord]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Therefore' date=' 350 points = schmucks. If you want a universe where the toughest heroes are schmucks, more power to you. [/quote']

...toughest 'officially statted' heroes...

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Schmucks?

 

When haven't they been successfully opposed in the official CU? They appear' date=' and dozens of Supers come out of the woodwork. It's a pretty common occurence in comics as well. Whenever a certain villain appears Cap grabs 20 Avengers or what have you.[/quote']

 

The problem is, in the Marvel Universe, Cap can grab 20 guys like Thor, Quasar, Sersi, Hercules, Photon, Iron Man, etc. He can also call on Dr. Strange for help if necessary. If Cap's reserves consisted of Stingray, Tigra, Silverclaw, Squirrel Girl and Moon Knight to take on Korvac or Ultron, the MU would be in a hell of a lot of trouble.

 

Among the officially-statted characters in the CU, we have UNITY, who do not entirely suck but do have some major limitations, and we have Victory and a few people from DIGITAL HERO. Unless there are a lot more folk in that range than we've been shown so far, they aren't gonna turn the tide against Dr.D or Takofanes. As far as we've been shown, the CU doesn't have 20 Avengers-class heroes to call in - or at least not ones close to the level of the Avengers I listed above. Sure, they can call in 20 Darkhawks and Silverclaws, but that just ups the body count.

 

You can call as many folk along the lines of Kinetix and Foxbat as you like and it's not going to significantly alter the tide of battle.

[Starlord]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You can call as many folk along the lines of Kinetix and Foxbat as you like and it's not going to significantly alter the tide of battle.

Since Destroyer and Takofanes have always lost, it apparently did.

[The Watcher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You can call as many folk along the lines of Kinetix and Foxbat as you like and it's not going to significantly alter the tide of battle.

Since Destroyer and Takofanes have always lost, it apparently did.

Or apparently there are heroes significantly more powerful than Kinetix and Foxbat in enough numbers to make a difference, who just haven't been statted yet, and may or may not be statted in the future.

 

Option B is much more plausible than Option A, unless you'd be willing to accept a Marvel Universe where the New Warriors are the Earth's Mightiest Heroes or a DC Universe where the Teen Titans are the world's most powerful team, and that the villains and menaces that the Avengers and Justice League sometimes barely managed to defeat are kept in line by such less powerful heroes.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Yes, they will. Just not all at once. Their powers will end up with a Combat Mode, an Investigative Mode, and an Exploration Mode. Unless you do someone who has everything through a focus, in which case you have more room to work. The mechanics are not hard to manage.

 

The GM's judgement calls are what place most limits on character power at 350 points, not the rules as written.

 

 

This is scary. You think too much like me.

 

Must destroy!

 

Fortunately, Voorhees isn't too far away from where I live.

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Common Sense = GM's call.

 

Which is a key point in Hero system.

 

Incidently, Tak could destroy all life on Earth without even getting into hyper-efficient mode. VPPs are a pain in the arse, and Summon more so, from a suspension of disbelief point of view.

 

Using a Summon inside a VPP to cram a massive one-shot attack power into a 1/5 point discount isn't creative -- it's abusive, cheesey munchkinism.

 

Hey, while you're at it, Summon a Follower with a Vehicle for a 125 to 1 ratio, slap on scads of Megascale, and you can have the ChronoBomb and destroy everything in reality by turning the whole universe back to the moment of the big bang. Yay, congratulations to you.

 

Summon is for, you know, summoning, not pulling 500+ pt attack powers out of your ass.

 

Moreoever, any character with a VPP of the appropriate SFX should have already long ago accomplished their goals. Except, you know, maybe the Alter All of Reality spell just doesn't exist in the CU or most other games. Maybe most players and GMs realize that powers of that nature are often innappropriate to most settings, to most characters, and to most SFX. Maybe most players and GMs realize that some power constructs are corrosive to enjoyable and balanced gameplay.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Since Destroyer and Takofanes have always lost' date=' it apparently did.[/quote']

 

Well, it did because we're told it did. It's impossible to see how that outcome occurred, though, given what has been presented as canon characters. That's kind of the whole point - the result doesn't make sense.

 

Similarly, Marvel could do a story where Spider-Kid, D-Man and Silver Claw single-handedly defeat Magneto in full-out combat, but it wouldn't make *sense.* Given canon examples to date, though, that outcome makes as about as much sense as the known CU thwarting Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Well, it did because we're told it did. It's impossible to see how that outcome occurred, though, given what has been presented as canon characters. That's kind of the whole point - the result doesn't make sense.

 

Similarly, Marvel could do a story where Spider-Kid, D-Man and Silver Claw single-handedly defeat Magneto in full-out combat, but it wouldn't make *sense.* Given canon examples to date, though, that outcome makes as about as much sense as the known CU thwarting Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

Again keep in mind that we only have write ups for 25 characters, 7 of which are over 500 points. That is very few compared to the 110 or so we know exist in the US alone. Also keep in mind that Vanguard, the CU Superman, was killed in the Battle of Detroit. They're out there. Just because we don't yet have their write ups doesn't mean they don't exist. I think that's what most of us have been saying all along.

[MitchellS]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Summon is for' date=' you know, summoning, not pulling 500+ pt attack powers out of your ass. [/quote']

The Nega-Beam is an offical 1,500 point power the players only need pay 150 points for. It's purchased with Summon.

[Vorsch]

Re: Schmucks?

 

The Nega-Beam is an offical 1' date='500 point power the players only need pay 150 points for. It's purchased with Summon. [/quote']

 

So because it appears in an official suplement that makes it legal and fair?

 

Alot of things have appeared in official suplements, and been wrong. all of EE for one, most EC.

 

Nega beams are a 1500pt attack power, make up advantages for what they do, the list isnt exhaustive you know. Summon variation breaks Steves own rules of purchasing powers, most expencive (power actually designed for the effect you want) is the appropriate power.

 

cant have it both ways and be credible.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Using a Summon inside a VPP to cram a massive one-shot attack power into a 1/5 point discount isn't creative -- it's abusive, cheesey munchkinism.

 

Hey, while you're at it, Summon a Follower with a Vehicle for a 125 to 1 ratio, slap on scads of Megascale, and you can have the ChronoBomb and destroy everything in reality by turning the whole universe back to the moment of the big bang. Yay, congratulations to you.

 

Summon is for, you know, summoning, not pulling 500+ pt attack powers out of your ass.

 

Moreoever, any character with a VPP of the appropriate SFX should have already long ago accomplished their goals. Except, you know, maybe the Alter All of Reality spell just doesn't exist in the CU or most other games. Maybe most players and GMs realize that powers of that nature are often innappropriate to most settings, to most characters, and to most SFX. Maybe most players and GMs realize that some power constructs are corrosive to enjoyable and balanced gameplay.

 

1) Takafones Summon power is not part of his VPP.

 

2) Nothing you have typed contradicts a single word of what I've posted. If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, fair enough, but I'd suggest you re-read my comments if you wish to attempt a meaningful reply.