MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Well' date=' its nice to get a few example characters or examples of archtypes, but I've never seen the point to lots of hero write ups. I don't know about the "should" look like. I've noticed most characters with experience look somewhat different from a character just built on alot of points, but hey DOJ wants to print it and people want to buy it cool. I just don't want things cluttered up with write ups I'm never going to use.[/quote'] I feel the same way about the VIPER and UNTIL books being "cluttered up" with package deals and weapons write ups I'm never going to use too. You can't please everyone, and since Hero Games seems to have a dedicated and unwavering product line plan they want to follow I think we all need to learn to live with getting pits and pieces rather than whole-cloth information. One additional advantage to hero write ups is that they add to the world information. Champions Universe is a little skimpy on over all information. I understand that was because it was one of the first books written but I think a lot of us like to read about the CU and learn more about it. Since it will be 2006 before we get an update, 4 years between updates is a long time, anything we can glean from NPC write ups is a blessing, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? said another way' date=' from the way the marvel supers rpg Doom is being described.. that's not so much the guy who's armour has taken shots from Thanos and who's mind has resisted the Overmind.[/quote'] One time events are really nothing more than the author's dramatic license coming into play. Another author might have Dr. Doom easily overcome by the Overmind. In Champions terms they're a power skill, luck roll, or GM caveat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted October 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I feel the same way about the VIPER and UNTIL books being "cluttered up" with package deals and weapons write ups I'm never going to use too. You can't please everyone, and since Hero Games seems to have a dedicated and unwavering product line plan they want to follow I think we all need to learn to live with getting pits and pieces rather than whole-cloth information. One additional advantage to hero write ups is that they add to the world information. Champions Universe is a little skimpy on over all information. I understand that was because it was one of the first books written but I think a lot of us like to read about the CU and learn more about it. Since it will be 2006 before we get an update, 4 years between updates is a long time, anything we can glean from NPC write ups is a blessing, in my opinion. Well, to each there own and all that. Its not like I'm the only person buying the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? so do you think the GGU is point bloated' date=' yes or no?[/quote'] Well, not too much. The villains are defeatable by the heroes, and the top end good guys are the PCs. That, that is how things should always be. (Oh, and the Guardians aren't some 7-800pt monstrosities, but instead fair, non abusive 500pt characters... which is valid, although perhaps not how I would do it) Mind, the Guardians, at 500 pts each, could mostly be brought down to 350 or so without killing their concepts, as long as the rest of the scale was done likewise. More to the point, the "Old" Guardians universe, was IMO d*mn near perfect. (The new is still bloody amazing, mind). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'm counting multiple villains above 1200 points, villain teams none of whom drop below 430 points and have members that ramp as high as 900+, and other such things, so I'm basically wondering why in comparison the CU is "point bloated". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? One time events are really nothing more than the author's dramatic license coming into play. Another author might have Dr. Doom easily overcome by the Overmind. In Champions terms they're a power skill, luck roll, or GM caveat. ... one time events have included... let's see.. draining the Silver Surfer of his power, taking repeated hits from various high end cosmic boojums, catching Captain America's shield mid throw, having strong enough will to simply let the Purple Man, who was controlling at that point /the entire planet/ to have a free shot at taking control of his mind, and said attempt failing.. That's routinely Doom. That's what he does. That's his thing. I'm getting really sick of this "everything can be done with the power skill" thing. Something that a character does routinely, or that is a big impressive moment of the story of a comic, or a level they routinely operate on as contrasted with a level that they usually don't... I mean, I may be wacky, but I'd like to be able to see that expressed in some way other than "roll the power skill no matter what it is, or just have the GM fudge it". Unless I'm playing HeroQuest, because that's exactly how it works there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? ... one time events have included... let's see.. draining the Silver Surfer of his power, taking repeated hits from various high end cosmic boojums, catching Captain America's shield mid throw, having strong enough will to simply let the Purple Man, who was controlling at that point /the entire planet/ to have a free shot at taking control of his mind, and said attempt failing.. That's routinely Doom. That's what he does. That's his thing. I'm getting really sick of this "everything can be done with the power skill" thing. Something that a character does routinely, or that is a big impressive moment of the story of a comic, or a level they routinely operate on as contrasted with a level that they usually don't... I mean, I may be wacky, but I'd like to be able to see that expressed in some way other than "roll the power skill no matter what it is, or just have the GM fudge it". Unless I'm playing HeroQuest, because that's exactly how it works there. Mental powers are about the easiest thing to avoid in Champions. Assuming Dr.Doom has a 25 EGO and 5 Overall levels he's got a pretty good chance of breaking out of any mental attack. As for Captain America's shield, it's a 5 point Missile Defection power. Easily done within the game. The grabbing is just author's caveat, again. In Champions terms you could make Dr. Doom do a grab maneuver MPA if you feel it's necessary. Taking hits are not a big thing. I already said he has a Monstrous Force Wall and Incredible Armor. Heck, even Thor only does 35 points of damage per hit. The simple fact of the matter is that no character can be created to represent all the one-time powers various comic book heroes and villains have done over the course of 40-65 years of stories. That's what the Power Skill is all about. We're looking at 500 issues of the Fantastic Four. That's too many writers and too many appearances to justify all those one-shot power displays. Just consider them part of Dr. Doom's pre-planned gadget pool if it makes you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? much like enduring the Overmind's attempt to overload his mind, that wasn't a breakout, that was the "the attack failed to do much of anything to him". And in the Purple Man's case, he had taken control of everything on the planet, including all the superheroes on earth, people like Cap and Thor and all the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? much like enduring the Overmind's attempt to overload his mind' date=' that wasn't a breakout, that was the "the attack failed to do much of anything to him". And in the Purple Man's case, he had taken control of everything on the planet, including all the superheroes on earth, people like Cap and Thor and all the rest.[/quote'] I understand your point but that doesn't mean that Dr. Doom doesn't have Mental Defense built into his armor, or that he didn't suffer from the effects for one phase off frame and then made his breakout roll. I didn't see the issues so I can't comment on them, but 40 points of Mental Def makes him virtually unstoppable against every conceivable mentalist. But having 40 points of Mental Defense in his gadget pool doesn't make him godlike. Only smart enough to be prepared. I believe Dr. Destroyer has 20 points of hardened Mental Def built into his armor with another 15 point in his gadget pool incase he runs into mentalists; and +10 more if he encounters Menton/Mentalla. Dr. Doom doesn't encounter the FF by accident. He plans his encounters as much as he can, and so has his gadget pool prepared to deal with whatever the FF might throw at him. He is one of the smartest people in the Marvel Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? the Purple Man scene basically involved Doom lowering every defense he'd built to the guy's powers and going flat out "hit me with your best shot". He laughed it off on pure will alone. Doom's indomitable willpower is a big part of who and what he is. He's the guy that endured having enough focus while being vivisected by the Beyonder to power drain him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? the Purple Man scene basically involved Doom lowering every defense he'd built to the guy's powers and going flat out "hit me with your best shot". He laughed it off on pure will alone. Doom's indomitable willpower is a big part of who and what he is. He's the guy that endured having enough focus while being vivisected by the Beyonder to power drain him. Ok, so some of his Mental Def isn't built into his armor. He's still not that powerful, in my opinion, but if you like him and want to use him that way it's your campaign. Arguing speculation is really pointless. We have the write up for Dr. Destroyer, we know how powerful he is. Until Hero Games gets a Marvel Universe license we can only speculate on Dr. Doom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'm counting multiple villains above 1200 points' date=' villain teams none of whom drop below 430 points and have members that ramp as high as 900+, and other such things, so I'm basically wondering why in comparison the CU is "point bloated".[/quote'] Okay, I'll just wander on over there and have a look... hold on. (I don't actually normally browse the villain writeups). Okay. Abyss. Abyss is like _the_ singular uber TechnoGod-NPC-from-hell. (okay, he has some competition, but no one is unarguably superior) He is 1410 points. He is (AFAIK) a DD of the GGU. He is 1410 points. But he is a DEX 23, 25/25 defenses MegaVillain. For NPCs, points costs don't matter so much as capabilities- NPC point bloat is in what they buy, not what they spend. More to the point, he doesn't have a 30d6 EB. (He does have a 200pt power pool... but none of the individual gadgets given as samples are ridiculously overpowered. Okay, the 6d6 Continuous NND is scary... but it is beaten by a Gas Mask.. c'mon). (Oh, and his 100pt Multipower would be cheaper if he bought all the powers separately... ) (WW reads CS of Tyros the Conqueror) Oookay. This guy is just wrong in all kinds of ways... But he's still weaker than TF, by a significant margin. Which says a lot. The GGU _is_ better than the CU on the overpowered Master Villain front. That said, Tyros makes me wonder why he exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? and the team with the 1300 point leader where no team member drops below 430 points? and the several other 1200+ megas besides the two you listed? and, nearly all of Tarot skewing well above 500+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Mental powers are about the easiest thing to avoid in Champions. Assuming Dr.Doom has a 25 EGO and 5 Overall levels he's got a pretty good chance of breaking out of any mental attack. Overall levels can't be used on breakout attempts unless they are preset. Levels must be consciously set, and the description of breakout attempts clearly states that it's a subconscious attempt to break out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? and the team with the 1300 point leader where no team member drops below 430 points? and the several other 1200+ megas besides the two you listed? and' date=' nearly all of Tarot skewing well above 500+?[/quote'] It would help if you attached names, 'cause I don't really feel like reading every single GGU NPC description to rebut you. That said... Prime8 has a leader with an absurd point total, because he has roughly 700 points in skills (estimate made from memory; I remember him having c200pts in sciences, c150pts in languages, c150pts in knowledge skils...) - that's not point bloat, that's just plain over-attention to detail. In any event, I'm not arguing NPC point totals, but PC point totals and NPC _useful in combat expenditure_. A lot of people waste a ton of points for their NPCs on largely junk details. I have rarely seen the like with PCs. In any event, even if I did say the the GGU WAS point bloated, what point are you making? What relevance does this have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Overall levels can't be used on breakout attempts unless they are preset. Levels must be consciously set' date=' and the description of breakout attempts clearly states that it's a subconscious attempt to break out.[/quote'] It does not state that in the rule book or in the FAQ, that I can find. I'd need to see an official ruling on that because right now I believe you can use any unassigned Overall levels however you want to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendaran Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? A full list then: Here's Tarot: Chariot Speedster, Long-Range Teleporter, Energy Blaster, Teleportation Gate Tricks 739 Death Pending Pending The Devil Metamorph, Demonic Form, Brick, Strength 75, Energy Blaster, Fire, Brutal 584 The Emperor Mystic, Powerful, Secretive, Manipulative, Ambitious 1093 The Empress Mystic, Conniving Meddler, Illusions and Trickery 680 The Fool Gadgeteer, Tarot, Resentful, Creative Thinker 515 The Hanged Man Martial Artist, Immortal, Indestructible, Jaded 768 Heirophant Mentalist, Knowledge and Memory, Power Pool 447 The Hermit Pending Pending Judgement Mentalist, Clairvoyant, Sociopath, Cruel 548 Justice Brick, Strength 65, Arrogant, Sense of Superiority, Hard to Hurt 655 The Lovers Energy Blaster, Cosmic Energy, Combined Form 646 Luna Pending Pending The Magician Mystic, Illusionist, Ambitious, Flashy, Arrogant, Power Pool 604 Priestess Pending Pending Star Energy Blaster, Heat, Fire, Light, Gravity, Stellar Powers 662 Strength Brick, 120 Strength, "Strongest Man in the World" 748 The Sun Energy Blaster, Heat and Light, Loyal, Dependable 642 Temperence Martial Artist, Than Vo Dao, Assassin, Lethal, Master of Hand-to-Hand Combat 636 Tower Pending Pending Wheel of Fortune Pending Pending The World Energy Blaster, Geokinetic, Massively Powerful, Ruthless 966 Here's the monkey team: Brass Monkey Powered Armor, Strength 80, Energy Blaster, Power Pool 539 Bushbaby Pending Pending Cyberangutan Pending Pending Doctor Simian Gadgeteer, Metagenius, Chimpanzee, Ape Supremacist 1315 Howler Energy Blaster, Sonics, Chimpanzee, Ape Supremacist 437 Kong Brick, Strength 100, Growth Brick, Gorilla, Ape Supremacist 482 Monkeyshines Energy Blaster, Light, Gorilla, Ape Supremacist 595 Spider Speedster, Chimpanzee, "Fastest Ape Alive", Ape Supremacist some notable individuals: Omega Brick, 90 Strength, Energy Blaster, Anti-Metahuman Killer Robot 1254 Paragon Metamorph, Power Mimic, Megalomaniac, Killer 923 The Blood Red King Alpha-Alpha, Incarnation of Evil, Lethal 1369 My point would be, the point totals skew as wildly as the CU villains, and yet there's a lack of you talking as denigratingly as you have been about it by comparison. Especially for a place you're that heavily involved in, it comes off as hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Let's be honest. Even in the old Marvel Superheroes game Dr. Doom wasn't that powerful. He had a Monstrous FF, Incredible Armor, an Amazing Kinetic Bolt and Magic Bolt, and could fly at Excellent speed; topped off with 140 Health. If it wasn't for the big force field the FF could have easily toasted him. Dr. Doom was defensively powerful but fairly average offensively. Dr. Destroyer, on the other hand, is sitting with Unearthly Armor and a Shift X primary attack. He would toast Dr. Doom in the Marvel Game. I'm not talking about his RPG stats. I'm talking about what he's actually done in the damn comics. And no way in hell is 30d6 ShX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Well, not too much. The villains are defeatable by the heroes, and the top end good guys are the PCs. That, that is how things should always be. (Oh, and the Guardians aren't some 7-800pt monstrosities, but instead fair, non abusive 500pt characters... which is valid, although perhaps not how I would do it) Mind, the Guardians, at 500 pts each, could mostly be brought down to 350 or so without killing their concepts, as long as the rest of the scale was done likewise. More to the point, the "Old" Guardians universe, was IMO d*mn near perfect. (The new is still bloody amazing, mind). "Non-abusive"?? Have you *seen* those ECs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? I'm still trying to figure out what exactly "point bloat" is supposed to be. As near as I can tell, it consists of "heroes or villains above a certain arbitrary level of power," said arbitrary level having no apparent connection to actual comics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? It does not state that in the rule book or in the FAQ' date=' that I can find. I'd need to see an official ruling on that because right now I believe you can use any unassigned Overall levels however you want to use them.[/quote'] We'll find out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? My point would be, the point totals skew as wildly as the CU villains, and yet there's a lack of you talking as denigratingly as you have been about it by comparison. Especially for a place you're that heavily involved in, it comes off as hypocritical. I'm not "heavily involved" in the GGU to the extent you imply; I have zero ability to affect the power level of that world. More to the point, the GGU is not the issue here. Anyone can build whatever they want for their private game world. The CU is the world that says how Champions games should be run. it is the sample, it is the starting point. I don't actually care about how DOJ decides to handle the CU, btw. It just pisses me off when people start insisting that there _must_ be 800 point heroes, when I can see clearly how it could work otherwise... I'm only here because I _really_ hate people who insist their way is the only true way. I've been trying to be dogmatic to show how freaking annoying it is, and apparently I've suceeded. I'm sorry Pendaran. I got caught up in the act. Enjoy writing up your Champions characters at whatever point values you think suitable... regardless of how much I may disagree. Because your view is valid... ...apparently, unlike mine. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? "Non-abusive"?? Have you *seen* those ECs?? Yes. I stand by my statement. EC's did not need to be 'fixed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Actually' date=' some on "one" side are saying that they want the allies book now, and some on "the other" say they don't mind waiting, or that they don't care. There's also a whole "what is point bloat" and "what is possible" thing going on, plus some random personal attacks. Kind of funky. [/quote'] Funky but kind of fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Schmucks? Funky but kind of fun to watch. From a safe distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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