Schmucks?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You take the disadvantage "Chosen One", as well as a few others like "Watched by forces of Good", and so on.

 

It's called destiny, although it might be better to spell it Destiny.

 

IOW, you get the GM to hand you the victory gift-wrapped, without having to work for it and actually earn it.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think that survey is scattered all over the message boards in the hundreds, if not thousands, of character examples that have been presented for review by various posters. How often do you see a 25d6 character submitted as compared to a 12d6 character? 10 to 1? 20 to 1?

 

I think there are three general types of gamers who post to these boards: Low-powered (like Whamme, making up 10%), Champions standard (like myself, making up 80%), and High-powered (like Metaphysician, making up the final 10%).

Wasn't there a poll? Too lazy to research right now, I just finished a couple hours of researching for my ballot...but anyway, I have a feeling it's more varied than 10-80-10 or at the least a lot more nuanced than that might suggest.

 

FWIW, my "standard" Champions campaign is to start around 250 and move up very quickly, more quickly than most campaigns.

[Starlord]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'd like to see someone actually post a 350 pt character who can go toe to toe with Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

 

The only way it happens is if:

 

1) The characters are really 1000+ pt characters, but due to massively abusive power frameworks or limitations that aren't really limiting, they come in at 350 pts.

 

2) Adjustment powers with the +2 advantage to everything, thus inflating the character points to far more than 350 pts. A variation on 1.

 

3) Tricks involving the 1:5 powers such as Summon, Duplication, or Multiform.

 

4) Some variation on a small base power with gobs of advantages on them.

 

5) V/5 martial maneuvers

 

6) Abuses of the +5 pt per doubling rule for foci.

 

7) Abuses of the Vehicle/Base rules.

 

8) Stuff like +8 penalty skill levels to aimed shots at the head.

 

9) The Cumulative advantage.

 

10) Rapid Fire abuses.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of abuses.

 

However, I'd like to issue a challenge to those who think that 350ers can deal with Tak or DD, to build a few sample 350 characters who can do so.

SPD of 10, and Megascale 30dk RKA with the limitation, Only Works Vs. Dr. D and Tak?

 

*Although, I think that violates 4. List is too big.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'd like to see someone actually post a 350 pt character who can go toe to toe with Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

 

The only way it happens is if:

 

1) The characters are really 1000+ pt characters, but due to massively abusive power frameworks or limitations that aren't really limiting, they come in at 350 pts.

 

2) Adjustment powers with the +2 advantage to everything, thus inflating the character points to far more than 350 pts. A variation on 1.

 

3) Tricks involving the 1:5 powers such as Summon, Duplication, or Multiform.

 

4) Some variation on a small base power with gobs of advantages on them.

 

5) V/5 martial maneuvers

 

6) Abuses of the +5 pt per doubling rule for foci.

 

7) Abuses of the Vehicle/Base rules.

 

8) Stuff like +8 penalty skill levels to aimed shots at the head.

 

9) The Cumulative advantage.

 

10) Rapid Fire abuses.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of abuses.

 

However, I'd like to issue a challenge to those who think that 350ers can deal with Tak or DD, to build a few sample 350 characters who can do so.

 

You missed EDM, fully invisible power effects with Hide Effects of Power, and the Transdimensional advantage. You also missed mentioning an active points limit. 300 point One Hex Accurate Killing Attacks with Increased Stun Multiple away.

 

It's a funky old system.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Um, what the hell??

 

Tech skills are *not* connected to his elasticity powers. No. Common. SFX.

 

Edit: Or, to put it another way- If Reed's intelligence were somehow the result of his plasticity powers, than either

 

A. Doom was smarter than him by a large margin during college

 

B. Reed is smarter than Doom by a large margin now

 

Since neither of these are true. . .

 

However stupid it is, it IS canon. I don't know why. Maybe the Cosmic Radiation caused him brain damage or something. But it's been stated.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

SPD of 10, and Megascale 30dk RKA with the limitation, Only Works Vs. Dr. D and Tak?

 

*Although, I think that violates 4. List is too big.

 

I think that violates the unstated Rule 0:

 

"The character must be a viable one for an actual campaign, that could 'logical' occur in a superhero world."

 

Said character violates both components of this, as there is no conceivable reason a character would have 30d6 RKA limited to use on two specific megavillains, *and* he'd be useless the rest of the time.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'd like to see someone actually post a 350 pt character who can go toe to toe with Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

 

The only way it happens is if:

 

1) The characters are really 1000+ pt characters, but due to massively abusive power frameworks or limitations that aren't really limiting, they come in at 350 pts.

 

2) Adjustment powers with the +2 advantage to everything, thus inflating the character points to far more than 350 pts. A variation on 1.

 

3) Tricks involving the 1:5 powers such as Summon, Duplication, or Multiform.

 

4) Some variation on a small base power with gobs of advantages on them.

 

5) V/5 martial maneuvers

 

6) Abuses of the +5 pt per doubling rule for foci.

 

7) Abuses of the Vehicle/Base rules.

 

8) Stuff like +8 penalty skill levels to aimed shots at the head.

 

9) The Cumulative advantage.

 

10) Rapid Fire abuses.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of abuses.

 

However, I'd like to issue a challenge to those who think that 350ers can deal with Tak or DD, to build a few sample 350 characters who can do so.

 

Tried to rep you on this, but couldn't. Good list.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I hope the lesson everyone takes from *this* little sidebar is: just because you *can* do something with the rules, doesn't mean you *should*.

 

Player: "Here's my superhero, Blasterman!! I spent 300 points on an unavoidable, irresistable energy blast, and the remaining 50 on upping my Speed to 7. I rox u!!"

 

GM: "Okay, not bad. Unfortunately, Blasterman got clubbed over the head by a mugger on his way to the team meeting, and is currently bleeding to death in an alleyway. Make another character."

 

Player: ". . ."

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'd like to see someone actually post a 350 pt character who can go toe to toe with Takofanes or Dr. Destroyer.

 

Well, a singular 350 pt character, no. That's just absurd.

 

But "The Extremes" are on their way to being effective vs that kind of thing.

 

The only way it happens is if:

 

1) The characters are really 1000+ pt characters, but due to massively abusive power frameworks or limitations that aren't really limiting, they come in at 350 pts.

 

2) Adjustment powers with the +2 advantage to everything, thus inflating the character points to far more than 350 pts. A variation on 1.

 

3) Tricks involving the 1:5 powers such as Summon, Duplication, or Multiform.

 

No, no, no.

 

4) Some variation on a small base power with gobs of advantages on them.

 

Only if you're being _really_ picky.

 

5) V/5 martial maneuvers

 

6) Abuses of the +5 pt per doubling rule for foci.

 

7) Abuses of the Vehicle/Base rules.

 

No, no, no... although some _use_, sure. There are rules for Vehicles and Foci doubling for a reason. (not ABuse, since it's not actually a major part of my plans).

 

8) Stuff like +8 penalty skill levels to aimed shots at the head.

 

9) The Cumulative advantage.

 

10) Rapid Fire abuses.

 

No, no, no.

 

I'm sure I'm missing a couple of abuses.

 

However, I'd like to issue a challenge to those who think that 350ers can deal with Tak or DD, to build a few sample 350 characters who can do so.

 

I don't think it's possible to build a character who can really deal with Takofanes if Takofanes is played by someone who enjoys twisting VPP's until they break. At any point value. (At best, you get mutual annihilation, where both sides deploy their Doomsday Powers and obliterate everything).

 

But with a bit more tweaking, and the other two members, I think my guys would do alright.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You missed EDM, fully invisible power effects with Hide Effects of Power, and the Transdimensional advantage. You also missed mentioning an active points limit. 300 point One Hex Accurate Killing Attacks with Increased Stun Multiple away.

 

It's a funky old system.

 

 

I also forgot Usable as Attack powers and Megascale in general.

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Pursuant to my earlier post, the average XP award is 3.5 (rounded) per session per player. There's some more points that players got as well via achieving reputation levels. This does not include the bonus given to characters that started later and were given a doubled XP award so they could catch up with the team more quickly (I do that to both simulate that hanging out with more powerful characters and their resources gives greater growth and to achieve better parity). Also, I should point out the awards vary a lot - many sessions are around 1 XP, and others will be as high as 8 XP, depending on where things happen in a story arc.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think that violates the unstated Rule 0:

 

"The character must be a viable one for an actual campaign, that could 'logical' occur in a superhero world."

 

Said character violates both components of this, as there is no conceivable reason a character would have 30d6 RKA limited to use on two specific megavillains, *and* he'd be useless the rest of the time.

 

I think he was a joke.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think that violates the unstated Rule 0:

 

"The character must be a viable one for an actual campaign, that could 'logical' occur in a superhero world."

 

Said character violates both components of this, as there is no conceivable reason a character would have 30d6 RKA limited to use on two specific megavillains, *and* he'd be useless the rest of the time.

 

I think I can rig a guy who can get to and survive in space, then megascale fire down at Tak and Destroyer. It would get kind of messy, what with wiping out all life on Earth and all, but he'd get them eventually.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I also forgot Usable as Attack powers and Megascale in general.

 

Oooh, Megascaly UAA Flight! How could I have forgotten!

 

Or the whole family of Increased Knocback+Megascale builds.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You know, looking at the Extremes, the only ones who look like they have *any* capability to threaten Dr D are the brick ( who wouldn't stun him even if he hit ), and Major Victory ( who's Suppress trick would not, on average, work ).

 

None of them looked to be able to keep Dr D from simply whacking them with the 20d6 Explosion.

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I think I can rig a guy who can get to and survive in space' date=' then megascale fire down at Tak and Destroyer. It would get kind of messy, what with wiping out all life on Earth and all, but he'd get them eventually. [/quote']

 

 

Except that both of them can fire back...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Except that both of them can fire back...

 

Not to mention that the guy would also have to have a means of locating them so he can hit them.

 

( while there are methods of destroying the whole earth at once, AFAIK, they are all based on the "Area Effect targets each Hex simultaneously" trick. . . and both Dr D and Tak are a good deal more durable than a hex of rock )

[Gary]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You know, looking at the Extremes, the only ones who look like they have *any* capability to threaten Dr D are the brick ( who wouldn't stun him even if he hit ), and Major Victory ( who's Suppress trick would not, on average, work ).

 

None of them looked to be able to keep Dr D from simply whacking them with the 20d6 Explosion.

 

 

Takofanes would simply do a Presence Attack, and everyone except Major Victory will be wetting their pants and sucking their thumbs in a corner screaming for Mommy.

[Chuckg]

Re: Schmucks?

 

However stupid it is' date=' it IS canon.[/quote']

 

Last I checked, that was only true in the Marvel Mangaverse (and possibly Earth X).

 

Neither one of which is canonical at all.

[Pendaran]

Re: Schmucks?

 

in college, before the powers, Reed was pointing out flaws in Doom's dimension piercing machine, i.e. he could have built a better one.

 

Reed's make himself smarter trick, if you're referring to the one that is canon, was when he needed to make himself smarter than even his normal supergenius levels for a specific thing, it's not something he routinely does. He is normally the guy who is just smart enough to build supertech, whether with a lab, or Macguyvering it from tech stuff he can get in the field.

 

edit: whenever they do "What Ifs?" of alt Reeds, he's always a supergenius, regardless of his powers. Hell, in Exiles a totally powerless Reed was by himself taking his people from medieval tech all the way into the 1950's, then intuitively understanding alien Skrulltech to the point of making use of it to fight Galactus.

[OddHat]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Except that both of them can fire back...

 

Looks like I need those Invisible Power Effects: Hide Effects of Power as well.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Takofanes would simply do a Presence Attack' date=' and everyone except Major Victory will be wetting their pants and sucking their thumbs in a corner screaming for Mommy.[/quote']

 

Except, of course, that it's immediately met with an equally effective PRE attack to get them back on their feet. (note the limiter allows for inspirign PRE attacks)

[Kristopher]

Re: Schmucks?

 

Hmm. Well, you're entitled to whatever opinion you can come up with. But what you obviously fail to realize is that an NPC can have his own motivations and his own personality and still be a tool. Nowhere did I say they were "inconsistent," "change their behavior" or whatever else you're slinging around. They simply fill a role in the story of the PCs, and they do that best while maintaining their own personalities and goals -- but they must remain subservient in emphasis to the PCs at all times.

 

Basically, I think you can have things one of two ways: either you can focus on the PCs, or not. If you focus on the PCs, you have a roleplaying game where a group of people collaboratively tell a story that has the potential to be interesting, surprising, challenging and involving for all concerned. If you choose to place the focus elsewhere, then you have something else, because if you don't focus on the PCs, you focus on something else -- whatever that might be -- and then the PCs become, by default, supporting cast. If you want to focus on something other than the PCs, you should write a book, or a screenplay, or a comic book, or some other form of creative endeavor, because the story the GM tells while he's got his players gathered around the table is and must remain the PCs story; if it isn't their story then it's someone else's story and you reduce the PCs to homunculi, cardboard cutouts who run around fulfilling the preordained roles the GM has devised as he tells somebody else's story. And that doesn't sound like an RPG to me.

 

Well, OK, it sounds like a White Wolf RPG. It just doesn't sound like a GOOD RPG.

 

It doesn't sound at all like any of the White Wolf RPG campaigns I've been in. Of the best games I've been in, most were Vampire or Werewolf. (And if you plan on inserting some snide immature comment about how I must have been in bad games, I'll just killfile you.)

 

Maybe we're talking past each other, but what you seem to be saying is that the game world and everyone and everything in it must take a back seat to the PCs. You can "tell the story of the PCs" in a world that has a life of its own, surrounded by NPCs that aren't tools and homonculi.

 

And really, I disagree with the whole notion of "telling a story" when it comes to RPGs. The game goes where it will go -- the old military adage that "no strategy survives contact with the enemy" is never more true than it is when GMing an RPG. You don't know where it's going. Set out to tell a story, and the game suddenly becomes something else -- it doesn't matter who it focuses on -- because you've automatically got some destination in mind.

 

I'm not talking about focusing on someone other than the PCs, either, so you can toss that misconception right now. I'm talking about not catering to them, and not patronizing the players.

 

Of course you've got to focus on the PCs -- they're the reason the players bother showing up. But that doesn't mean that the setting or the NPCs are there to cater to the PCs.

 

Letting the NPCs have their own "realness" and motives independent of the PCs and their "story" doesn't require that the spotlight has to shift one inch away from the PCs.

 

Having more-powerful heroes -- and threats that the PCs can't deal with alone -- doesn't require that the spotlight has to shift one inch away from the PCs.

 

Example: when I ran Vampire, no one ever complained when a powerful elder vampire was involved in the story, or was present during a fight. The players either appreciated the challenge of fighting such an awesome (old meaning) foe, or got a kick out of fighting alongside a strong ally. NPCs overshadowing the PCs is usually just one problem among many caused by a poor GM. I've been in games in which the NPCs made the PCs and the players feel useless and pointless, and I know that none of my players from that Vampire game would tell you that I did anything of the sort with my NPCs -- in fact, most of them have really enjoyed my NPCs, if you believe what they've told me in the past.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Schmucks?

 

You know, looking at the Extremes, the only ones who look like they have *any* capability to threaten Dr D are the brick ( who wouldn't stun him even if he hit ), and Major Victory ( who's Suppress trick would not, on average, work ).

 

None of them looked to be able to keep Dr D from simply whacking them with the 20d6 Explosion.

 

Being a Threat is not the job of most of them. Screwing with whatever plans the enemy might have IS.

 

But you do have a point... hold on while I fix things.

(just need to edit Qu a bit... and possibly clone the brick... who does a 32d6 Move Through on a target who WILL have 0 DCV at the time... and who will have Major Victory suppressing them)

[zornwil]

Re: Schmucks?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think Gary's list is a "good" list if we're referring to cheese. It includes many areas of potential abuse, but singularly, things like "cumulative" and "+8 OCV to head" have excellent reasonable usages and are not inherent cheese. I can imagine either being justified. If it's a list of "potentially easily abused" areas, sure, yeah, but I think to disrespect all of these various ideas carte blanche is blatantly unfair. Which I think some people (not necessarily even Gary who posted it) are doing in their praise of the list.

 

PS - my other point being that these could be credibly built into a character that might beat a much more-powered character.