So, why is longevity so expensive?

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

The given cost for Immortality presupposes a degree of utility that I do not find to be warranted. Certainly, for some styles of gamemastering, the power can be ensured (to it's possessing character) of being worthwhile. For me, I find adjusting the cost in accordance with my own perception of it's value to be the best course.

[Silbeg]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

And don't forget you can cover the cost of it with a Distinctive Feature: Long Life (assuming you are really old at the start of the game). This would include things like having a birth certificate but no death certificate and other similar stuff that someone researching your character's paper trail could figure out and cause them to start asking questions and compromise your character's identity.

Interesting. Leads the character to certain social limitations... and other psych lims...

Social Lim of no birth certificate could certainly be an issue, as well as a psych lim of a fatalistic view (having seen so many friends and family die over the years). Etc.

[Dust Raven]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

The given cost for Immortality presupposes a degree of utility that I do not find to be warranted. Certainly' date=' for some styles of gamemastering, the power can be ensured (to it's possessing character) of being worthwhile. For me, I find adjusting the cost in accordance with my own perception of it's value to be the best course.[/quote']

So many players and GMs are so quick to this conclusion (don't mean to single you out Just A Guy Name, you just happened to make the most recent post ). I wonder why? Over twenty years of cumulative thinking, brainstorming, considering, balancing and playtesting went into the cost of everything that's listed in FREd. While I'm certain it's not perfect, I think it deserves more than a few moments thought and consideration before something is changed. Or at least think about what can make it deserve the listed cost as well and then decide which works best for your game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

So many players and GMs are so quick to this conclusion (don't mean to single you out Just A Guy Name' date=' you just happened to make the most recent post ). I wonder why? Over twenty years of cumulative thinking, brainstorming, considering, balancing and playtesting went into the cost of everything that's listed in FREd. While I'm certain it's not perfect, I think it deserves more than a few moments thought and consideration before something is changed. Or at least think about what can make it deserve the listed cost as well and then decide which works best for your game.[/quote']

 

Overall, I agree with your comment - make sure it's broken before you fix it. In fairness, however, not everything in the book has 20+ years of experience. Energy blasts and the costs of characteristics do, as do killing attacks.

 

Longevity, Summon, Aid and Healing, for example, do not. They weren't added until later in the process, and as such lack the same term of testing. Summon, Aid and Healing all first apeared in 3e, and then only as part of Fantasy Hero. They have been steadily tweaked each edition.

 

Full life support once cost 30 points, and now costs 50, of which 5 is longevity. I don't believe longevity in 5e matches any prior edition (I could be wrong - was it in 4th Ed? I can't remember, but I do remember full life support did not cost 50 points prior to 5e).

[zornwil]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

To follow up, while I allow all the various individual LS components at their stated values, I allow 30 points to buy them all, as I still don't see any issues with the old school 30 points for all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

To follow up' date=' while I allow all the various individual LS components at their stated values, I allow 30 points to buy them all, as I still don't see any issues with the old school 30 points for all.[/quote']

 

So once I hit 30 points (Need not Breathe, eat, excrete, uimmune to unusual envoironments, diseases and poisons), I live forever free of charge? I'd rather lower the cost of the varuious components so they sum to 30 points.

 

Not sure what specific changes I'd make, however. Maybe make "all toxins and diseases" pool for 15 points, or even 10 points? Maybe restructure "safe environment" like "poisons and toxins" (one is a point or two, working up to all being 5 or 10 points)? Maybe make "breathe in one environment" 2 points and "Need not breathe" 5 points? I'll have to look at FREd and see what might work.

[zornwil]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

So once I hit 30 points (Need not Breathe' date=' eat, excrete, uimmune to unusual envoironments, diseases and poisons), I live forever free of charge?[/quote']

If you want to. I assume people flesh out their characters in more detail, but I'm okay if they do that, yes.

[Dust Raven]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Overall, I agree with your comment - make sure it's broken before you fix it. In fairness, however, not everything in the book has 20+ years of experience. Energy blasts and the costs of characteristics do, as do killing attacks.

 

Longevity, Summon, Aid and Healing, for example, do not. They weren't added until later in the process, and as such lack the same term of testing. Summon, Aid and Healing all first apeared in 3e, and then only as part of Fantasy Hero. They have been steadily tweaked each edition.

 

Full life support once cost 30 points, and now costs 50, of which 5 is longevity. I don't believe longevity in 5e matches any prior edition (I could be wrong - was it in 4th Ed? I can't remember, but I do remember full life support did not cost 50 points prior to 5e).

I was thinking in the overall perspective of the system. Technically, these new abilities are only there because the game designers discovered they system needed them. The path to this discovery started 20 years ago, and what we have now is the result. True, Life Support as we see it today is quite a bit different than it was in 4th, and almost alien to what was in 3rd. I'm not even sure if LS even existed in 2nd, as the only books I have are 3rd and older. That still makes it kinda old though... and admittedly a work still in progress as it keeps changing dramatically with each edition.

 

My point remains the same, however. I'll prefer to try to make an ability worth the points spent on it before I change it's cost.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Over twenty years of cumulative thinking' date=' brainstorming, considering, balancing and playtesting went into the cost of everything that's listed in FREd. While I'm certain it's not perfect, I think it deserves more than a few moments thought and consideration before something is changed. Or at least think about what can make it deserve the listed cost as well and then decide which works best for your game.[/quote']Heh, no offense taken I'd rather tweak the rules to fit my game than the other way around: I'd consider myself a better arbiter of what's good for my campaign than the rules, in this case; indeed, in most cases.

[Dust Raven]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Heh' date=' no offense taken I'd rather tweak the rules to fit my game than the other way around: I'd consider myself a better arbiter of what's good for my campaign than the rules, in this case; indeed, in most cases.[/quote']

True enough. I prefer to make the rules fit my campaign, rather than to change them to fit. Ultimately the final arbiter is each individual GM. If what you do works, keep doing it! I just like to make my campaigns as compatable as possible with those of other GMs in case there might be any crossover or so that my players can take their character to other GMs without needing to rewrite them. The only true benchmark I have is the rules... so that's what I use.

[zornwil]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

True enough. I prefer to make the rules fit my campaign' date=' rather than to change them to fit. Ultimately the final arbiter is each individual GM. If what you do works, keep doing it! I just like to make my campaigns as compatable as possible with those of other GMs in case there might be any crossover or so that my players can take their character to other GMs without needing to rewrite them. The only true benchmark I have is the rules... so that's what I use.[/quote']

Sorry for the OT (especially since it isn't NGD) but I had to call this out - great sig, Dust Raven!

 

However, I do have an on-topic point - re the rules, I see change as fine. I do understand/appreciate that it detracts from portability, but most groups aren't so fluid that this is a major concern in my own experience. I think that the value in a GM changing the rules as he sees fit - even if perhaps somewhat hastily - is that ultimately the GM will be comfortable, and this alone is a virtue, assuming other aspects are not off-kilter terribly. Although I DO think that HERO is very mature and one should thnk abut changes carefully.

 

Also, as to "changes", many of us "change" the rules because they were - in our minds - never broken in many respects. Whether it's -1/3" or the use of Shape Shift as it was in 4th, many of us feel that these changes in later editions were for the worse - and in fact, to be quite candid, ill-considered changes made in deference to misunderstandings, rulemakers' personal preferences, and/or simple avoidance of the appearance of standing still (i.e., change for change's sake).

 

Nonetheless, this does not mean I reject where 5th has ended up. Despite my earlier criticisms, I think 5th is another good step forward, and I suppose I have given up on my rejection of everything after 3rd edition.

 

(You can take the neo-anarchist out of New England, but you can't take the (ultimately conservative in taste) New Englander out of the neo-anarchist...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

True' date=' Life Support as we see it today is quite a bit different than it was in 4th, and almost alien to what was in 3rd. I'm not even sure if LS even existed in 2nd, as the only books I have are 3rd and older. That still makes it kinda old though... and admittedly a work still in progress as it keeps changing dramatically with each edition.[/quote']

 

I believe in 2nd it was still heirarchical in nature (5 points - breathe water. 10 points - need not breathe. 15 points added immune to skin absorbed gases. 20 added need not eat. I believe 25 added immunity to heat/cold/radiation, and 30 added vacuum and high pressure, but I may have these reversed.

 

To get full life support back down to 35, I'd use something like the following:

 

Breathing: use the present scale (1 point for each shift up the time chart), but at 5 the character need not breathe at all (at this point, the chart would be 1/5 hours, so the difference would rarely, if ever, see play). "Exotic environment" would be a limitation (eg. need not breathe if underwater would be a -1 limitation, so 3 points). FULL = 5

 

Eating: as is FULL = 3

 

Sleep: as is FULL = 3

 

Longevity: 400 years 1 pt; 1,600 years 2 points; no limit 3 points. FULL = 3

 

Safe environments 1 point each FULL = 5

 

Immunity unchanged, except drop All poisons/chemicals to 8, and All diseases/Biotoxins to 8 FULL = 16

 

Full life support would now cost 35 points, rather than 50. I don't see getting it down to 30 points unless you provie "volume discounts", and I like each area being independent so I'm disinclined to do so.

[zornwil]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

I have mixed feelings, Hugh. One of the comments made in the construction of Talents is that sometimes things are worth less points even though their construction technically costs some higher number. I think this is true and is the bane of any ponts-based system, the whole is sometimes less than the parts. I do like your suggestion/construction, though. Just not sure if I feel that LS is better as a volume discount for all or whether the parts should be recosted.

[Rapier]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Also, as to "changes", many of us "change" the rules because they were - in our minds - never broken in many respects. Whether it's -1/3" or the use of Shape Shift as it was in 4th, many of us feel that these changes in later editions were for the worse - and in fact, to be quite candid, ill-considered changes made in deference to misunderstandings, rulemakers' personal preferences, and/or simple avoidance of the appearance of standing still (i.e., change for change's sake).

 

Nonetheless, this does not mean I reject where 5th has ended up. Despite my earlier criticisms, I think 5th is another good step forward, and I suppose I have given up on my rejection of everything after 3rd edition.

This is the nature of the beast. Because Steve is writing the rules, what Hero has beomce is Hero as Steve sees it, and plays it. If I was in charge (or you or DustRaven or anyone) people would be unhappy because how I've been playing Hero would end up as rules.

 

However, even though i disagree with some of the rules and don't like some of the changes made in FREd, I am very, very happy with where the game currently is. FREd is leaps and bounds ahead of the BBB, with a few issues IMO. However, the tweaks/house rules/what-have-you that I use with FREd are much much fewer than we used with the BBB. I have every faith that as time goes on, Hero will get better and better.

 

The simple fact that technology (eg the Internet) has progressed far enough that we can share or concerns, questions etc with Steve and Co. demands improvement of the game. Back in the day, games were fairly static because most game makers were unaware of players feelings and didn't know problems existed.

[Rapier]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

To get full life support back down to 35, I'd use something like the following:

 

Breathing: use the present scale (1 point for each shift up the time chart), but at 5 the character need not breathe at all (at this point, the chart would be 1/5 hours, so the difference would rarely, if ever, see play). "Exotic environment" would be a limitation (eg. need not breathe if underwater would be a -1 limitation, so 3 points). FULL = 5

 

Eating: as is FULL = 3

 

Sleep: as is FULL = 3

 

Longevity: 400 years 1 pt; 1,600 years 2 points; no limit 3 points. FULL = 3

 

Safe environments 1 point each FULL = 5

 

Immunity unchanged, except drop All poisons/chemicals to 8, and All diseases/Biotoxins to 8 FULL = 16

 

Full life support would now cost 35 points, rather than 50. I don't see getting it down to 30 points unless you provie "volume discounts", and I like each area being independent so I'm disinclined to do so.

Yep. The problem (I shouldn't say problem, the difference/escalation in costs) with LS is that there is a lot more in there than there used to be. There just used to be one environmental LS (extreme temp: heat and cold).

 

While this is all good and everything what do you do with Flamester O'Flannery? He is immune to high temp...but not cold. So do you take a lim on the LS: Heat only? Well, high temp and low temp are actually two different things. So you split them up. So where are before 3pts (or whatever its costs was) got you immune to extreme heat AND cold, 3pts now gets you immune to extreme heat OR cold. IMO, this is a better construct. Just because you are immune to disease, doesn't mean you are immune to posions. I like the granularity, it allows me to better tailor the LS to my needs instead of getting lots of side benefits that stray from the concept or having to load the LS down with hundreds (slight exaggeration ) of limitations.

 

If you really want to get the cost of LS back down to its old levels, you just need to improve the groupings. Group temperature LS together, group poisons and disease, group other commonalities.

 

Personally, I don't see the problem with the increased cost of LS. I mean, we did get another 100pts for SuperHero characters. A bump of 5 pts for full LS isnt that big a deal.

[megaplayboy]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

I think 5 points is fine. Really, to my mind, there's different degrees of "immortal":

 

1. you don't grow old and die, but you can get sick, starve, or die violently

2. you don't grow old, or get sick, but you can starve or die violently

3. you don't grow old or get sick or starve, but can still die violently

4. you can only die by violence or special means, and heal very quickly

5. you can only die by special means, and can regenerate from violent "death"

 

some kinds of fantasy elf races might fit category 1, the Asgardians might fit category 3, and the Eternals and dimensional entities might fit category 4 or 5

 

For #4 and #5, a degree of invulnerability is typical--IIRC, the Eternals could only be truly killed by scattering their atoms across a large area, like via an H-bomb.

 

#1 costs 5 points. #2 costs 15 points. #3 costs 18 points(+3 if you don't need to sleep). #4 costs at least 30 points. #5 costs 50+ points, depending on how much regen and resistant defense you want.

 

the most extreme is the power from USPD, where you have +xx BODY, only to delay true death...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

There just used to be one environmental LS (extreme temp: heat and cold).

 

vacuum/high pressure was also in there from the start.

 

While this is all good and everything what do you do with Flamester O'Flannery? He is immune to high temp...but not cold. So do you take a lim on the LS: Heat only? Well' date=' high temp and low temp are actually two different things. So you split them up. So where are before 3pts (or whatever its costs was) got you immune to extreme heat AND cold, 3pts now gets you immune to extreme heat OR cold.[/quote']

 

Or you lower the cost from 3 points for both to 1 point for each, with a few more environmental immunities thrown in (the present system charges 2 points each for all but one, with a similar net effect but an escalation in point costs).

 

IMO' date=' this is a better construct. Just because you are immune to disease, doesn't mean you are immune to posions. I like the granularity, it allows me to better tailor the LS to my needs instead of getting lots of side benefits that stray from the concept or having to load the LS down with hundreds (slight exaggeration ) of limitations.[/quote']

 

And I agree, which is why my suggestion above is that we keep the granularity, but reduce individual and aggregate costs. There's no need to sacrifice granularity until/unless we get to the point where something should cost 1/2 points.

[Dust Raven]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Sorry for the OT (especially since it isn't NGD) but I had to call this out - great sig' date=' Dust Raven! [/quote']

Thanks!

[Dust Raven]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

I believe in 2nd it was still heirarchical in nature (5 points - breathe water. 10 points - need not breathe. 15 points added immune to skin absorbed gases. 20 added need not eat. I believe 25 added immunity to heat/cold/radiation, and 30 added vacuum and high pressure, but I may have these reversed.

 

To get full life support back down to 35, I'd use something like the following:

 

Breathing: use the present scale (1 point for each shift up the time chart), but at 5 the character need not breathe at all (at this point, the chart would be 1/5 hours, so the difference would rarely, if ever, see play). "Exotic environment" would be a limitation (eg. need not breathe if underwater would be a -1 limitation, so 3 points). FULL = 5

 

Eating: as is FULL = 3

 

Sleep: as is FULL = 3

 

Longevity: 400 years 1 pt; 1,600 years 2 points; no limit 3 points. FULL = 3

 

Safe environments 1 point each FULL = 5

 

Immunity unchanged, except drop All poisons/chemicals to 8, and All diseases/Biotoxins to 8 FULL = 16

 

Full life support would now cost 35 points, rather than 50. I don't see getting it down to 30 points unless you provie "volume discounts", and I like each area being independent so I'm disinclined to do so.

About the only thing I don't like about 5th's LS is the high cost for Full/Total Life Support. 50 points is just too high. I love the granularity of it though, which allows me to have characters with widely differing levels of immunities, lifespans and food and sleep requirements. If I would change anything though, it'd be the Immunities. 20 points is just too much to be immune to poison and disease. I just compare that to what you get by spending 20 points on anything else, even other parts of Life Support. For only 10 points you are completely invulnerable to gas attack, a far more common attack which also includes any airborn poisons (including non-terrestrial), and that's on top of not choking from a simple lack of air.

[zornwil]

Re: So, why is longevity so expensive?

 

Along these lines, if anyone's interested, I changed the template for HERO Designer so that you could put all the LS components in but the cost never exceeds 30. Obviously, that bar coudl be changed, or you can just change the components anyway. Just mentioning if anyone would need that for some reason (I can copy and paste that part out so that you don't have to deal with my whole slew of other changes).