Rapier Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists That's exactly my point. It takes GM intervention to equalize bricks and MAs. The rules as written give a huge edge to bricks over MAs' date=' all other things being equal.[/quote'] 1) Bricks SHOULD have some combat edge over MAs. That is why they are bricks. Bricks should (archetypically) be able to suck up and dish out vast amounts of damage. MAs should be dodging and leaping around, rarely hit (but boy when they do get hit...man its gotta hurt). 2) Isn't that why we sit behind the screen? IMNSHO, Hero's point based system has a way of levelling the field. Can you get a brick with huge OCV/DCV/DEX? Sure...but he's only got the same points as everyone else. This means, that he isn't gonna be as bricky as other bricks and not as MAey as other MAs. The classic Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None. Hero System open-endedness REQUIRES the GM to participate in character creation. In D&D, things are a lot easier. The system is so locked down that it cannot be abused very easily...of course, characters are also railroaded down a particular path and one Warrior is much like another. THAT is the reason I switched to Hero in the first place. I was tired of being able to create a brand new character (interchangeable with any other similar character) in under 5 minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists 1) Bricks SHOULD have some combat edge over MAs. That is why they are bricks. Bricks should (archetypically) be able to suck up and dish out vast amounts of damage. MAs should be dodging and leaping around, rarely hit (but boy when they do get hit...man its gotta hurt). 2) Isn't that why we sit behind the screen? IMNSHO, Hero's point based system has a way of levelling the field. Can you get a brick with huge OCV/DCV/DEX? Sure...but he's only got the same points as everyone else. This means, that he isn't gonna be as bricky as other bricks and not as MAey as other MAs. The classic Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None. Hero System open-endedness REQUIRES the GM to participate in character creation. In D&D, things are a lot easier. The system is so locked down that it cannot be abused very easily...of course, characters are also railroaded down a particular path and one Warrior is much like another. THAT is the reason I switched to Hero in the first place. I was tired of being able to create a brand new character (interchangeable with any other similar character) in under 5 minutes. 1) Nope, a point spent on one thing should be relatively equal to a point spent on something else (at least in an area that is directly comparable). However, the rules as written, result in points spent on Str being significantly more effective than points spent on DCs for martial arts. 2) Since a brick's points are more efficiently spent than the MA, he could easily choose to do the exact same thing as the MA, and have points left over. IOW, he will be more MA than other MAs if he wants to, barring GM intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists That's exactly my point. It takes GM intervention to equalize bricks and MAs. The rules as written give a huge edge to bricks over MAs' date=' all other things being equal.[/quote'] Gary, forgive me if I've asked this before, but how often have you seen this play out as a problem in actual play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Good question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Gary' date=' forgive me if I've asked this before, but how often have you seen this play out as a problem [b']in actual play[/b]? Plenty. I've almost never seen a "pure" martial artist in actual play. I've seen plenty of bricks and brick/MA's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Plenty. I've almost never seen a "pure" martial artist in actual play. I've seen plenty of bricks and brick/MA's. Could you please be more specific? Have you seen the problem with both in play? How so, by example? Have you heard people say they wouldn't play a "pure" martial artist because they'd be disadvantaged? How do you define "pure" martial artist? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Could you please be more specific? Have you seen the problem with both in play? How so, by example? Have you heard people say they wouldn't play a "pure" martial artist because they'd be disadvantaged? How do you define "pure" martial artist? Thanks in advance. In the campaigns that I've been in, virtually nobody plays a character with a 15-25 Str who's primary attack is straight hand to hand damage gained mostly through martial maneuvers and martial damage classes. I have seen people who play bricks who buy basic martial arts, or other types of characters who have martial arts as a secondary attack if their primary was neutralized for whatever reason. If you want an example of a brick in one of my campaigns, you can look up Lariat who I've posted several times. She would annihilate virtually every "pure" martial artist ever published on anywhere near the same number of character points and who are built relatively straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists In the campaigns that I've been in, virtually nobody plays a character with a 15-25 Str who's primary attack is straight hand to hand damage gained mostly through martial maneuvers and martial damage classes. I have seen people who play bricks who buy basic martial arts, or other types of characters who have martial arts as a secondary attack if their primary was neutralized for whatever reason. If you want an example of a brick in one of my campaigns, you can look up Lariat who I've posted several times. She would annihilate virtually every "pure" martial artist ever published on anywhere near the same number of character points and who are built relatively straight. Why haven't they played this martial artist, have you asked? Perhaps that just isn't popular in your group, I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists In the campaigns that I've been in, virtually nobody plays a character with a 15-25 Str who's primary attack is straight hand to hand damage gained mostly through martial maneuvers and martial damage classes. I have seen people who play bricks who buy basic martial arts, or other types of characters who have martial arts as a secondary attack if their primary was neutralized for whatever reason. I've seen plenty of the 15-25 STR martial artist characters. They're useful and versatile, if well constructed to take advantage of the strengths of the type -- both HERO system strengths, and the strengths of that archetype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I've seen plenty of the 15-25 STR martial artist characters. They're useful and versatile' date=' if well constructed to take advantage of the strengths of the type -- both HERO system strengths, and the strengths of that archetype.[/quote'] IME, a well constructed brick overshadows a well constructed MA (assuming they are both built relatively straight) unless the GM sets dex/spd limits on the brick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists IME' date=' a well constructed brick overshadows a well constructed MA (assuming they are both built relatively straight) unless the GM sets dex/spd limits on the brick.[/quote'] That's probably part of the gap in these discussions. Every Champs game I've been in has had some kind of limit on CVs, SPD, DCs, and DEF based on the character concept/archetype, or on some mathematical formula based around those stats. And really, I think those limits are appropriate. Martial Artists shouldn't typically do the most damage on the team, bricks shouldn't typically be the most accurate, others shouldn't typically have the most DEF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists That's probably part of the gap in these discussions. Every Champs game I've been in has had some kind of limit on CVs, SPD, DCs, and DEF based on the character concept/archetype, or on some mathematical formula based around those stats. And really, I think those limits are appropriate. Martial Artists shouldn't typically do the most damage on the team, bricks shouldn't typically be the most accurate, others shouldn't typically have the most DEF. I would prefer that 1 pt spent in Str would be roughly equal to 1 pt spent in a martial damage class. However, that is not the case and thus we have the need for artificial GM imposed limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I would prefer that 1 pt spent in Str would be roughly equal to 1 pt spent in a martial damage class. However, that is not the case and thus we have the need for artificial GM imposed limits. Even if everything were absolutely prefect and even, I'd be tempted to impose those limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I would prefer that 1 pt spent in Str would be roughly equal to 1 pt spent in a martial damage class. However' date=' that is not the case and thus we have the need for artificial GM imposed limits.[/quote'] I don't have the artificially imposed limits yet have generally not had any of the many problems you describe in HERO balance. However, I certainly have had reasonably mature players. However, also, I haven't had a real martial arts character, though, in a super-hero game so I can't really judge your MA/Brick comments precisely. I can say I'm playing a mostly but probably not by your definition strictly martial arts character in lemming's game, and there is a brick in it. It's a points-less game centering around 500 points. The brick has about as many points as I do last I looked. No issues in feeling less adequate. As far as combat goes, my character has 25 STR, +5 DC for all martial arts, 11 base CV, +2 levels with combat, 24 PD/ED to model glancing blows and such, 60/115 STUN (the +55 he has to start up and be charged with mana, not good if ambushed or surprised), and a 17/30 CON (the +13 is same arrangement as the +55). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists IME' date=' a well constructed brick overshadows a well constructed MA (assuming they are both built relatively straight) unless the GM sets dex/spd limits on the brick.[/quote'] IME, most players who play bricks don't put their DEX or SPD that high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists IME' date=' most players who play bricks don't put their DEX or SPD that high.[/quote'] My experience is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists My experience is different. Just out of curiousity, how high would they typically put them? Our brick in this campaign (right now we don't have a real brick anymore) had a CV of...3! SPD was 4 though he's gone up a lot now that he's no longer a brick but a mage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Just out of curiousity' date=' how high would they typically put them? Our brick in this campaign (right now we don't have a real brick anymore) had a CV of...3! SPD was 4 though he's gone up a lot now that he's no longer a brick but a mage.[/quote'] Up to a 38 dex 8 spd for a Timber Wolf clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I wouldn't exactly call a Timberwolf clone a "brick." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Up to a 38 dex 8 spd for a Timber Wolf clone. Thx. That seems too high for a 350 brick and not typical IME, but, hey, asked and answered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists I wouldn't exactly call a Timberwolf clone a "brick." Why not? He's strong, fast, and agile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Up to a 38 dex 8 spd for a Timber Wolf clone. Who? EDIT: Anyway, 38 DEX and 8 SPD is faster than any martial artist in any game I've run / been in, and about the max for speedsters. Never mind how that compares to any brick IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Why not? He's strong' date=' fast, and agile.[/quote'] Why's he not a brick?? Because he's strong *and* fast *and* agile. Same reason why Spider-man is not a brick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Who? Timber Wolf is from the Legion of Superheroes. Very strong, fast, and agile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted November 1, 2004 Report Share Posted November 1, 2004 Re: Fixing Martial Artists Why's he not a brick?? Because he's strong *and* fast *and* agile. Same reason why Spider-man is not a brick. So? Superman is a brick, and he's strong, fast, and agile. Brick to me implies high strength, nothing more and nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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